Key issues from the 90's?

[RockMyAmadeus]

. At what point does Valiant enter that stage or will it never?

 

The answer to that is never.

 

Valiant's place in comics history is hard and fast. There can never be a discussion of the 1990's and comics without mentioning Valiant. The books that ARE keys will ALWAYS be keys, so long as comics from the era are collected at all.

 

Ultraverse simply doesn't belong mentioned in the same breath as Valiant.

 

There were, perhaps, 2-3 "key" Ultraverse books. There are a handful of uber rare books, but no one knew about them at the time. Ultraverse was printed in the bazillions, so any book that even had a shot at "becoming key" was dead on arrival.

 

Valiant could have been what Marvel was in the early 60's. They had it in the palm of their hands...and they blew it. But no one will ever be able to take away the fact that they HAD it, even if it was only for 2 years or so. They were, simply, the most important comics published for a decade or more on either side.

 

And that is why those books, so long as comics from that era are collected at all, will always be pre-eminent, just like Marvel from 1961-1964, and just like DC from 1938-1942.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

And lest anyone think I'm overstating...

 

Quick, name the company that has the most books in the "top 100 most valuable slabs" from 1980-2000....

 

 

[comicalgems]

And lest anyone think I'm overstating...

 

Quick, name the company that has the most books in the "top 100 most valuable slabs" from 1980-2000....

 

 

??????//

[Gatsby77]

There are at least 20 Valiant books I'd consider "key" for any series 90s collector.

 

Some are expensive, others not. Remember "key" means important, not just valuable, so I'd include nearly all the pre-Unity # 1s--what started as a sci fi line quickly crossed over into a superhero mythos that--as RMA said--was poised to be the first legit new superhero player since Marvel in the 1960s.

 

Image could have gotten there but sputtered starting out. How many Image titles hit 50 issues in less than seven years? Two? (Spawn and Savage Dragon, maybe). Valiant had four. Any other post-1970 publisher manage to produce four titles that hit 50 issues each in the first seven years?

 

Dark Horse could have gotten there had they focused on ongoing titles rather than minis.

 

But keys?

 

Adventures of Super Mario 1 (first Valiant comic for sale)

 

Magnus 0 (first modern really popular send-away giveaway)--started trend of # 0 origin or special issues

 

Magnus 1 (first Valiant hero comic)

 

Harbinger 1 (first original Valiant hero comic, peaked at $125 within 18 months of release)

 

Solar 10 (iconic all black cover, later aped by FF # 371)

 

Archer Armstrong 0 gold (first gold incentive)

 

Unity 0 (free promotional comic, started arguably greatest company crossover ever, at least most significant since Secret Wars)

 

X-O # 1--Conan meets Iron Man, by iconic Iron Man artist Bob Layton and iconic Conan artist BWS.

 

Rai 0 - "origin" of the Valiant Universe with future history told of many characters.

 

Deathmate Prelude: FIrst issue of massively distributed Image/Valiant crossover with art by BWS and Jim Lee. More importantly, this is the crossover that precipitated the comic book crash, as many comic book stores went out of business directly due to the high cover prices and delays associated with this crossover.

 

Turok 1 - At 1.7 million copies, also contributed to the comic market crash and losses by speculators on this issue contributed to tanking the Valiant speculator market and (eventually) the line as a whole. It was the "Ishtar" or "Zabriskie Point" of '90s comics.

 

[CKB]

Adventures of Super Mario 1 (first Valiant comic for sale)

 

Great list. I assume you meant Super Mario Special Edition, or Super Mario Brothers 1, as the first Valiant comic in April 1990. The "Adventures of " series came a little later in 1991, with paper covers and a lower cover price.

 

As far as which one of the two April 1990 books is first, I've seen it argued either way.

 

[Gatsby77]

Yes. Thanks for the correction.

[the blob]

Image could have gotten there but sputtered starting out. How many Image titles hit 50 issues in less than seven years? Two? (Spawn and Savage Dragon, maybe). Valiant had four. Any other post-1970 publisher manage to produce four titles that hit 50 issues each in the first seven years?

-------------------

 

Valiant also didn't seem to mind publishing books with 15K print-runs at that point. Dunno if Image pulled the plug on titles earlier in their decline. Maxx was a nice title that went 35 issues, did Kieth just get bored or were sales THAT bad (yes, I know these later issues are tough to find).

 

Supreme went to issue 56 FYI. How, I dunno.

 

Wildcats went to 50 issues.

 

Gen 13 went 77 issues, but maybe you're not including that in the equation because the unlimited series didn't come out until 1995.

 

And then you have later entires like Witchblade, etc., but those don't count.

 

There might be more, I dunno.

 

I understand Valiant was a big deal when it came out, but let's not overblow things. Good stories, etc. helped, but let's be realistic, part of what got them up mid/high six and seven fugure print-runs was the feeling that they could be flipped for a profit once the initial 10 or so issues started getting hot. One has to wonder if there were really ever more than 100,000 Valiant readers as opposed to people buying stacks of them for resale.

[sakaridis]

Dunno if Image pulled the plug on titles earlier in their decline. Maxx was a nice title that went 35 issues, did Kieth just get bored or were sales THAT bad (yes, I know these later issues are tough to find).

 

Supreme went to issue 56 FYI. How, I dunno.

 

Wildcats went to 50 issues.

 

Gen 13 went 77 issues, but maybe you're not including that in the equation because the unlimited series didn't come out until 1995.

 

And then you have later entires like Witchblade, etc., but those don't count.

 

There might be more, I dunno.

 

Stormwatch

[Prince Namor]

I still wish Youngblood V3 would have lasted more than 2 issues.

I really thought it was good (Alan Moore story), and it's some of my favorite Steve Skroce art.

However: Not valuable.

[the blob]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them. I really don't think there were all that many people interested in the content (I suspect a fraction of the monthly actual READERSHIP of x-men titles at the time). So, in that regard, very different than the first few years of marvel superheros in the 60s where the growth in circulation, etc. was basically about content.

 

My olds LCS found the post-unity valiants to be lousy sellers off the rack even if there were file customers ordering 20 copies of each issue for investment purposes. For that reason he got lucky and didn't overorder too many of the valiants (he got stuck with a bunch of the shadowman aerosmith issue because he thought it would have cross-over appeal).+

[seanfingh]

 

Supreme went to issue 56 FYI. How, I dunno.

 

 

Alan Moore doing the last 16 issues.

[valiantman]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them.

 

True, but Valiant fans aren't nostalgic for the Valiant junk.

Valiant fans are nostalgic for the Valiant good stuff.

It's the reason there are no nostalgic Image fans.

There's no such thing as Image good stuff.

 

[Bosco685]

There's no such thing as Image good stuff.

 

 

 

[Green]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them.

 

True, but Valiant fans aren't nostalgic for the Valiant junk.

Valiant fans are nostalgic for the Valiant good stuff.

It's the reason there are no nostalgic Image fans.

There's no such thing as Image good stuff.

 

Image collectors like myself dont have to be nostalgic. They still print comics.

 

[Green]

 

Supreme went to issue 56 FYI. How, I dunno.

 

 

Alan Moore doing the last 16 issues.

And platt art in some of it iirc. It was good stuff.

 

I remember a story where supreme came back from the future to kill himself of something like that and there was an epic platt throwdown.

[valiantman]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them.

 

True, but Valiant fans aren't nostalgic for the Valiant junk.

Valiant fans are nostalgic for the Valiant good stuff.

It's the reason there are no nostalgic Image fans.

There's no such thing as Image good stuff.

 

Image collectors like myself dont have to be nostalgic. They still print comics.

So do Marvel and DC, but there is nostalgia for those. You'd think after 20 years Image would have made something worthy. It's kind of sad really.

[fastballspecial]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them.

 

True, but Valiant fans aren't nostalgic for the Valiant junk.

Valiant fans are nostalgic for the Valiant good stuff.

It's the reason there are no nostalgic Image fans.

There's no such thing as Image good stuff.

 

Image collectors like myself dont have to be nostalgic. They still print comics.

 

ouch

 

[fastballspecial]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them.

 

True, but Valiant fans aren't nostalgic for the Valiant junk.

Valiant fans are nostalgic for the Valiant good stuff.

It's the reason there are no nostalgic Image fans.

There's no such thing as Image good stuff.

 

Image collectors like myself dont have to be nostalgic. They still print comics.

So do Marvel and DC, but there is nostalgia for those. You'd think after 20 years Image would have made something worthy. It's kind of sad really.

 

The comeback was decent, but I liked the opener better.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them. I really don't think there were all that many people interested in the content (I suspect a fraction of the monthly actual READERSHIP of x-men titles at the time). So, in that regard, very different than the first few years of marvel superheros in the 60s where the growth in circulation, etc. was basically about content.

 

My olds LCS found the post-unity valiants to be lousy sellers off the rack even if there were file customers ordering 20 copies of each issue for investment purposes. For that reason he got lucky and didn't overorder too many of the valiants (he got stuck with a bunch of the shadowman aerosmith issue because he thought it would have cross-over appeal).+

 

1. There are all sorts of reasons why Valiant's rise was different from Marvel's, but their foundation is essentially the same. Nobody thought they could "make money" from Valiant until Unity, well over a year after Magnus #1.

 

2. I wouldn't go comparing the quality of X-Men in 1992 with Valiant.

 

3. Image and Valiant cannot be compared, as they are entirely different types of publishers.

[Gatsby77]

I'm as big a Valiant fan as anyone this side of Greg, but Image and Valiant can absolutely be compared:

 

They were two major new (and successful) threats to Marvel and DC's dominance that both came to prominence in 1992 and produced wildly popular superhero books.

 

Each was heavily hyped and speculated upon (Image from the outset, Valiant only after Unity) and made smart speculators money.

 

Each was further propelled by publicity in Wizard--several of that magazine's Top 10 lists from 20 years ago were composed exclusively of Valiant and Image books--whether it was Shadowhawk 1 at $12 or Rai 4 at $50, they were the hottest books around.

 

Each changed the comic industry (Valiant with its zero origin issues and later retailer incentives--like Deathmate Golds and Predator/Magnus Platinum that foretold the current RRP craze; Image with creator-owned properties and sub-studios that inspired Ultraverse, Bravura, and whatever that Dark Horse consortium was that included Next Men, Hellboy, and Sin City.)

 

Each had expensive back issues that set records (Harbinger 1 at $125; Gen 13 # 1 at $45; Walking Dead 1--today at over $300 for a 9.4).

 

But yeah--arguably Image survived only by splitting into different "studios," whereas Valiant floundered after Shooter left, and several reboots with the characters (three now, and counting--four if you count "Birthquake" and the new talent infusion with end of the "Valiant house style"), failed.

 

The dirty little secret that Valiant fans don't wish to acknowledge is that the line likely would have failed even had Shooter stayed, as too many comic shops had been burned by speculators ordering hundreds of thousands of books random books like Harbinger 17-20 or Secret Weapons 1 that should have sold in the 50-70K range. Proof? Two of the failed Valiant reboots were spearheaded by Shooter--Unity2000 and the recent Dark Horse line.

 

Valiant has its place in history, with over 1000 books published in under a decade, but twenty years from now may well be better known for its role in speculator excess and precipitating the 1993 comic market crash than for the superior science ficition and superhero stories that it produced, particularly prior to 1994.