Key issues from the 90's?

[comicalgems]

I love Darkhawk...bought it off the rack in walmart.

 

I submitted one (DH 1) and it came back 9.4 so I finally bought one at 9.8

 

I now have my favorite New Warriors first appearances in 9.8, Darkhawk and Nova.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Exactly, you can't discuss comic books in 1992 without discussing both Image and Valiant, just like you can't discuss comics in 1991 without touching on Marvel's X-books, which dominated.

 

Plenty of the "contemporary literature" such as Wizard and the Overstreet Updates/Fan directly compared the two companies, so it's specious to--decades later--state that because the companies had different editorial and management structures that they weren't comparable.

 

 

I suppose one could compare mint chocolate chip ice cream with 70's rock n' roll band KISS, since, after all, both existed in the 70's.

 

Unfortunately, there's not much else to compare.

 

Both companies were "hot" in 1992-1993. That's where the comparison pretty much ends. (And psssst....comparisons of how the market REACTED to them is not the same as comparisons BETWEEN them.)

 

By the way...where are these "comparisons" by Wizard and/or Overstreet actually located? Or, by "compare", you actually mean "contrast"...?

 

Likewise, the fact that they later crossed over in Deathmate invites direct comparison--particularly with regard to how the "Valiant" issues were (mostly) on time, while the "Image" books were late.

 

Ok. Other than "they were both hot" and "it seemed like a good idea at the time", what sort of "direct comparison" does Deathmate invite between Valiant and Image...keeping in mind the fact that Valiant was on time while Image was chronically late is a CONTRAST, not a comparison.

 

 

[dupont2005]

They were both Indy super hero publishers that kind of came out of nowhere and were getting snapped up by speculators?

[sakaridis]

They were both Indy super hero publishers that kind of came out of nowhere and were getting snapped up by speculators?

No, Valiant was an "indy super hero publisher that kind of came out of nowhere".

 

Image was not really a "publisher", but more a conglomeration/coalition of already ultra popular artists who had made huge names for themselves and loads of money for Marvel (as well as themselves) in the previous years.

 

Also they didn't "come out of nowhere", in any sense of of the phrase. They were the hot guys who were trying to stick it to their former bosses (and make more money for themselves in the process). The comics press was covering them extensively from day one and both the industry and fans were watching their every move with bated breath.

[Bosco685]

They were both Indy super hero publishers that kind of came out of nowhere and were getting snapped up by speculators?

 

 

To me, Deathmate showed how these two companies lost their way. Especially Valiant.

 

Valiant started out with amazing stories that allowed the characters to blend together quite well, forming the foundation of a universe which kept readers coming back for more. The artwork was just nice enough to compliment the stories without it being the total focus. Valiant changed over time to match the market feeding frenzie of light storylines, but heavy focus on impressive artwork from greats like Bart Sears, Paul Gulacy, and even newcomer Bernard Chang. Hence the reason why many Valiant collectors like to focus on Unity and earlier books so much, and sometimes the later issues due to the low print runs.

 

Image started out with a nice pool of characters like Spawn and Savage Dragon, with the early books showing plenty of promise. And the artwork really complimented the stories from McFarlane, Lee, and even Larsen. Then characters like The Maxx and Pitt came along, making the company that much stronger. But then they became heavily focused on the artwork, and not much on the storylines. I tried to read the original Gen 13 limited series a few years back (interesting - 1st appearance in Deathmate), and the stories were quite light. The J. Scott Campbell artwork, though, was fantastic. Most probably it was Image's different studios that kept it alive, making it diverse enough to overcome its weaker creations. And with later publications like The Walking Dead, Invincible, Darkness and Witchblade, it did come back stronger.

 

Deathmate definitely showed how these two companies were lost at this point. Great artwork, weak storyline, late delivery, and no real impact on the market other than filling more "3 for a dollar" boxes.

 

I still hold on to my early Spawn, Savage Dragon, and Valiant Unity and Pre-Unity books because I loved them so much, and still do. They definitely bring back memories of a great time in comics. Deathmate - not at all.

[Ogami]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. About the only thing I would take issue with is RMA's shortening of Marvel's initial zeitgeist, but that's about it. (most people would extend it to at least '68)

 

 

I was there for Valiant's rise. Really enjoyed Solar, X-O, Magnus, Archer and Armstrong, and Rai. The rest, not so much. I consider myself the average Valiant reader. Enjoyed it then, did NOT think it was earth shattering, hated their demise, moved on.

[Ogami]

And I've always considered Image to be more like Dark Horse, than Valiant. I agree with RMA that Valiant felt more like Marvel, SA. It was a cohesive universe built from the ground up- Shooter learned that trick first hand.

 

But Image followed Dark Horse's template. Find talented creators and let em loose. Dump the failures, move on to the next big thing. I have a great deal of respect for Mike Richardson, although I did not enjoy any of his books the first years of his publishing. Punisher vs Aliens vs Robocop vs My Little Pony wasn't my thing.

 

I collect 8 new books a month currently. And buy my ninth in hardback from Image every six months.

 

6 from Marvel

1 from DH

1 from Image

1 from IDW

[Bosco685]

But Image followed Dark Horse's template. Find talented creators and let em loose.

I agree with the comparison (Valiant/Marvel, Image/Dark Horse). But I don't think it was due to planning on the part of the Image founders. It came from the creators wanting to support their own studio content, and control their creations.

 

Todd McFarlane Productions - Todd McFarlane

Highbrow Entertainment - Erik Larsen

Wildstorm Productions - Jim Lee

Extreme Studios - Rob Liefeld

ShadowLine - Jim Valentino

Top Cow Productions - Marc Silvestri

 

And over time, this definitely worked for Image.

[dupont2005]

Image was not really a "publisher"

They publish comics.

[fastballspecial]

But Image followed Dark Horse's template. Find talented creators and let em loose.

I agree with the comparison (Valiant/Marvel, Image/Dark Horse). But I don't think it was due to planning on the part of the Image founders. It came from the creators wanting to support their own studio content, and control their creations.

 

Todd McFarlane Productions - Todd McFarlane

Highbrow Entertainment - Erik Larsen

Wildstorm Productions - Jim Lee

Extreme Studios - Rob Liefeld

ShadowLine - Jim Valentino

Top Cow Productions - Marc Silvestri

 

And over time, this definitely worked for Image.

 

and get rich.(Nothing wrong with that.)

 

[the blob]

 

Supreme went to issue 56 FYI. How, I dunno.

 

 

Alan Moore doing the last 16 issues.

 

makes sense, i was done with it by around 25-30 (no, i did not buy them off the rack).

[the blob]

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that Valiant fans are all nostalgic, but let's face it, 2 million copies were printed of Turok 1 and enormous print-runs of post-unity books for a year or so not so much because Valiant really changed the face of comics content-wise and excited huge numbers of comic fans, but because a bunch of folks thought they'd make money off them.

 

True, but Valiant fans aren't nostalgic for the Valiant junk.

Valiant fans are nostalgic for the Valiant good stuff.

It's the reason there are no nostalgic Image fans.

There's no such thing as Image good stuff.

 

 

True, it has been almost 20 years, but I read the first 2 1/2 or so years of Spawn and thought it was pretty good. I actually bought it off the rack for a while.

 

Maxx was an interesting title.

 

I didn't have much interest in the other stuff, although Pitt sure looked cool.

[sakaridis]

Image was not really a "publisher"

They publish comics.

 

If you wanna turn this into a discussion over semantics, I'll happily stay out of the way and wait for RMA to chime in, since I'm fairly confident he'll be able to do it in a much more eloquent and succinct manner than me, anyway

 

About the other point, though? You know, the one where they both "came out of nowhere". Got anything there?

[dupont2005]

Yes, they both came out of nowhere. Neither company existed, then all the sudden both were the darlings of Wizard magazine, at the same exact time.

 

The only real difference is one published creator owned work and one published licensed property. They were the same genre and were close enough in content to have crossed over. Not only that, but a lot of people who collected one publisher collected both. There are plenty of similarities between the two.

[sakaridis]

Yes, they both came out of nowhere. Neither company existed, then all the sudden both were the darlings of Wizard magazine, at the same exact time.

 

The only real difference is one published creator owned work and one published licensed property. They were the same genre and were close enough in content to have crossed over. Not only that, but a lot of people who collected one publisher collected both. There are plenty of similarities between the two.

I think you're trying awfully hard to miss the point...

[Bosco685]

Image and Valiant still bring out the fight in people.

 

[sakaridis]

Image and Valiant still bring out the fight in people.

 

 

No fight at all. It's just an interesting subject and I'm enjoying the debate.

 

I respect all publishers equally and tend to collect pretty much everything and anything.

 

 

[rjpb]

I had no interest in the early Image books - creator owned or not - they had the look of a cohesive superhero oriented universe, and not one that appealed to me ( Fantagraphics was my favorite publisher in the early 90s). Today their output is quite diverse, and I find myself buying at least one Image title a month ( and I probably only buy 8-10 books a month)

[Prince Namor]

The reason people compare Image and Valiant is because of comics that were released with 'Image' and 'Valiant' on the covers, appearing in the marketplace during the early 90's.

[rjrjr]

You'd think after 20 years Image would have made something worthy. It's kind of sad really.

 

You mean something like The Walking Dead?

There's "nostalgia" for The Walking Dead?

If that's possible then I have "nostalgia" for some cannelloni I had last week.

 

 

I was looking at what you wrote in its entirety and you at one point wrote "There's no such thing as Image good stuff." I was just refuting what I thought you were saying about Image having never produced a good comic. I feel there have been some good older Image comics, like The Maxx. Later on, we saw titles like Astro City. Today, we are getting titles like the Walking Dead and Invincible. Image's output has changed greatly in its 20 year history and while a few of the original titles are still around (Spawn and Savage Dragon), many, many titles have disappeared. While I'm not nostalgic for any particular Image title (I was a Marvel guy who became a Valiant devotee), I do feel nostalgia for the time the Image founders starting publishing comics. It was exciting time to be a comic collector and reader, something the industry will never be able to repeat.

 

I think its great that other have nostalgia for Valiants, as I was a big fan of the comics back in its day. I have frequently visit the Valiant boards over the past 10 years or so and have a complete run of all of their comics (minus a few variants) as I stuck around through the end of Valiant 1 and even purchased all the Valiant 2 titles. I actually enjoyed many of the Valiant comics well past the Unity storyline and did not mind some of the later titles like Armorines, HARDCorps, Second Life of Dr. Mirage, Ninjak, and PsiLords. It was Birthquake that killed my enthusiasm for the line (X-O Manowar and Solar really took a dive) and was thankful when the line was finally halted, as I was only buying the comics at that point to keep my collection complete. Some of the titles, like Bloodshot, stayed strong to the end however. I purchased the Valiant 2 titles, yes, even titles like Bad Eggs and N.I.O., but the thrill was definitely gone. I was extremely hopeful for the Unity 2000 mini-series but we know how that turned out.

 

My nostalgia for the Valiant line is what prompted me to purchase all the "Dark Key" line and I look forward to seeing what VEI has in store for the Valiant characters. I'm realistic enough to know my hopes for a Valiant revival are all but futile; today's publishing environment is not conducive to a successful superhero line from an indy publisher.

 

One good thing did come out of my Valiant nostalgia however, I'm an avid collector of Gold Keys non-funny books and hope to finish putting together a complete collection in high grade in the next few years.