Comic people on Frank Miller's rant

[Prince Namor]

I'm not going to debate politics and get a strike or this thread deleted. Suffice it to say that your statement of what "OWS" wants is not based in fact. It's just a characterization meant imply a unified position by OWS to redistribute wealth by force.

I'm not debating politics. Just common sense stuff. If a mob decides to "occupy" something they don't own, then the owner has a problem.

 

I just don't see any difference between a massive central authority or a massive collective authority seizing control and attempting to eliminate individual choice. Force is likely to be the tactic employed, and force is likely to be a rational response to it.

 

Sometimes force is the only option left, or the most effective one to call attention to something. Not always, but sometimes.

 

If a large group of people have been wronged, or they perceive that they have been wronged, and the government is unwilling or unable to do anything about it, other options have to be explored. Not saying it is right or wrong, but it is just how it is.

 

I'm not disagreeing with that.

 

To me there's a very simple difference:

The tea party seems to think politicians work for them while OWS seems to think everyone works for them.

 

One group is correct, the other dangerously misguided.

 

[TupennyConan]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

[dover]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

[TupennyConan]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

 

Can I borrow some?

[Dale Roberts]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

 

Can I borrow some?

 

 

maybe you can qualify for some type of welfare, and then open a meth lab in the back of your trailer

[dover]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

 

Can I borrow some?

 

Sure, plenty to lend from your favorite GSE.

 

Low cost, protected and garanteed by ....... you.

 

Hey, wait a minute. You send them money, they give it to me to lend back to you? What kind of system are they, me, you running here?

 

What if you could just keep more of what you earned and then you would not need to borrow from their circular system of monetary exchange?

 

No, that can't work.

 

[dover]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

 

Can I borrow some?

 

 

maybe you can qualify for some type of welfare, and then open a meth lab in the back of your trailer

 

In one quick statement we have both the war on drugs and the war on poverty.

 

Did we win yet? or do we need more?

[Dale Roberts]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

 

Can I borrow some?

 

 

maybe you can qualify for some type of welfare, and then open a meth lab in the back of your trailer

 

In one quick statement we have both the war on drugs and the war on poverty.

 

Did we win yet? or do we need more?

 

 

Don't get me wrong Dover. I am all in favor of helping people who can't work due to a real disability. I am 100% not in favor of helping people who won't work.

 

There used to be a guy who lived down the road from me who was on disability (as was his wife). He couldn't work, due to a "bad back". But he could mow his yard on a riding mower. He could ride his four wheeler, and he could manage somehow to fight through the pain and go deer hunting every fall.

 

My question is this, did his bad back keep him from working at a gas station, or a fast food joint, or even a desk job? For that matter, did it keep him from mowing yards for a living? No. His laziness and an enabling government system did this.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

 

Can I borrow some?

 

 

maybe you can qualify for some type of welfare, and then open a meth lab in the back of your trailer

 

Or maybe he could qualify for some type of corporate welfare. That's where the money's really at.

[Dale Roberts]

Either way. Once they take my money, I don't know what they do with it.

 

I get some of it.

 

 

Can I borrow some?

 

 

maybe you can qualify for some type of welfare, and then open a meth lab in the back of your trailer

 

Or maybe he could qualify for some type of corporate welfare. That's where the money's really at.

 

 

no doubt

[TupennyConan]

The objective is to help as many people in life as possible. Where Miller & Moore disagree is how best to do that. I don't care that they can't agree or that I agree with one of them more than the other. I don't care because I love them both as artists & wish them the best as human beings. Never allow politics to screw with your faith in people.

[Prince Namor]

Knowing that Miller's take on the fascism of superheroes wasn't as satirical as I thought when I was younger, the paths that the two of them have taken shouldn't reveal any surprises in what their comments about current events are.

 

I still love much of what they've done as comic book creators.

[DiceX]

The objective is to help as many people in life as possible. Where Miller & Moore disagree is how best to do that. I don't care that they can't agree or that I agree with one of them more than the other. I don't care because I love them both as artists & wish them the best as human beings. Never allow politics to screw with your faith in people.

 

Agreed. I don't let an artist or entertainer's view on politics cloud my opinion of their work. I love them for the service they provide me. I really don't care what they have to say about the world outside of their expertise. That's why they are artists instead of politicians. They bring butterflies, rainbows and illusions of grandeur. They are rarely grounded in reality enough to produce rational thought.

 

Why anyone puts stock in anything said by Demi Moore, Alan Moore, or Frank Miller is beyond me. They are about as far removed from reality and the average person as you can be. They should paint me a picture when they are finished bellyaching.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

The objective is to help as many people in life as possible. Where Miller & Moore disagree is how best to do that. I don't care that they can't agree or that I agree with one of them more than the other. I don't care because I love them both as artists & wish them the best as human beings. Never allow politics to screw with your faith in people.

 

Agreed. I don't let an artist or entertainer's view on politics cloud my opinion of their work. I love them for the service they provide me. I really don't care what they have to say about the world outside of their expertise. That's why they are artists instead of politicians. They bring butterflies, rainbows and illusions of grandeur. They are rarely grounded in reality enough to produce rational thought.

 

Why anyone puts stock in anything said by Demi Moore, Alan Moore, or Frank Miller is beyond me. They are about as far removed from reality and the average person as you can be. They should paint me a picture when they are finished bellyaching.

 

 

Maybe a Youngblood #1 cover recreation?

[TupennyConan]

Chuck Gower's comment on FM's attitude toward super-heroes is correct. FM's DKR was loaded with polical philosophy about the (super) human condition. Same with AM's Watchmen. Those guys express their views in their art in a more artful way than when they lecture to the internet.

[Comicopolis]

I love Frank Miller & Alan Moore.

 

I love Alan Moore's writing. Not all of it, but most. And yes, he's not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy. Diversity is everything.

 

Frank Miller - I see nothing 'special' in his work, either his art or his writing.

 

I would disagree with everything that Dale said about Mr Moore but that's one of the great things about comic book fandom, we all have our favourites and sometimes we can have sensible and reasoned discussions about those differences.

 

 

[Aces]

It's just a characterization meant imply a unified position by OWS to redistribute wealth by force.

 

Very much agreed. It's intriguing to note that the only ones promoting OWS as having a "redistribution of wealth" agenda are those opposed to the movement in the first place. It's a rather simple propaganda technique (lie about what the other side wants) and it's working like gangbusters.

 

Here's an excellent article (from a UK publication no less) about the Occupy movement:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy

 

The mainstream media was declaring continually "OWS has no message". Frustrated, I simply asked them. I began soliciting online "What is it you want?" answers from Occupy. In the first 15 minutes, I received 100 answers. These were truly eye-opening.

 

The No 1 agenda item: get the money out of politics. Most often cited was legislation to blunt the effect of the Citizens United ruling, which lets boundless sums enter the campaign process. No 2: reform the banking system to prevent fraud and manipulation, with the most frequent item being to restore the Glass-Steagall Act – the Depression-era law, done away with by President Clinton, that separates investment banks from commercial banks. This law would correct the conditions for the recent crisis, as investment banks could not take risks for profit that create kale derivatives out of thin air, and wipe out the commercial and savings banks.

 

No 3 was the most clarifying: draft laws against the little-known loophole that currently allows members of Congress to pass legislation affecting Delaware-based corporations in which they themselves are investors.

 

That's funny. The Tea-Party wanted almost the same thing (minus number 1). The repeal of the 1998 Fair Housing Act which created the housing bubble and repealed Glass-Steagall. The end of creating derivatives out of thin air (and the Fed doing the same with dollars-Return to the Gold Standard). And the Tea-Party favors term limits and applying all laws to Congress because they exempt themsleves from almost all of them.

Sounds like identity theft going on here...

[Prince Namor]

I love Frank Miller & Alan Moore.

 

I love Alan Moore's writing. Not all of it, but most. And yes, he's not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy. Diversity is everything.

 

Frank Miller - I see nothing 'special' in his work, either his art or his writing.

 

I would disagree with everything that Dale said about Mr Moore but that's one of the great things about comic book fandom, we all have our favourites and sometimes we can have sensible and reasoned discussions about those differences.

 

 

In hindsight, Miller's DKR's was a return to the 'might makes right' that is the core of much of what people like about superheroes. Obviously there's more to it than that, but after listening to Cyclops for years say stupid like "We can't kill the Brood! They may be an alien race that's going to completely eliminate the human life as we know it, but killing is just...WRONG!", DK seemed like a welcome return to throwing bad guys off a building.

 

When Miller channels his Eisner influence, he CAN create some really fantastic thought out masterpieces (Daredevil #191, Daredevil Born Again), but he certainly can't compare to the writing of Moore.

 

It's fun to talk about this stuff.

 

 

[Comicopolis]

I love Frank Miller & Alan Moore.

 

I love Alan Moore's writing. Not all of it, but most. And yes, he's not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy. Diversity is everything.

 

Frank Miller - I see nothing 'special' in his work, either his art or his writing.

 

I would disagree with everything that Dale said about Mr Moore but that's one of the great things about comic book fandom, we all have our favourites and sometimes we can have sensible and reasoned discussions about those differences.

 

 

In hindsight, Miller's DKR's was a return to the 'might makes right' that is the core of much of what people like about superheroes. Obviously there's more to it than that, but after listening to Cyclops for years say stupid like "We can't kill the Brood! They may be an alien race that's going to completely eliminate the human life as we know it, but killing is just...WRONG!", DK seemed like a welcome return to throwing bad guys off a building.

 

When Miller channels his Eisner influence, he CAN create some really fantastic thought out masterpieces (Daredevil #191, Daredevil Born Again), but he certainly can't compare to the writing of Moore.

 

It's fun to talk about this stuff.

 

 

It's not so much the writing in DKR's - though I think it's fairly derivative and just an 'adult' imaginary story - but I believe the art to be atrocious. But that's just me, I know others love it for the same reasons I dislike it.

[Logan510]

I love Frank Miller & Alan Moore.

 

I love Alan Moore's writing. Not all of it, but most. And yes, he's not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy. Diversity is everything.

 

Frank Miller - I see nothing 'special' in his work, either his art or his writing.

 

I would disagree with everything that Dale said about Mr Moore but that's one of the great things about comic book fandom, we all have our favourites and sometimes we can have sensible and reasoned discussions about those differences.

 

 

In hindsight, Miller's DKR's was a return to the 'might makes right' that is the core of much of what people like about superheroes. Obviously there's more to it than that, but after listening to Cyclops for years say stupid like "We can't kill the Brood! They may be an alien race that's going to completely eliminate the human life as we know it, but killing is just...WRONG!", DK seemed like a welcome return to throwing bad guys off a building.

 

When Miller channels his Eisner influence, he CAN create some really fantastic thought out masterpieces (Daredevil #191, Daredevil Born Again), but he certainly can't compare to the writing of Moore.

 

It's fun to talk about this stuff.

 

 

I'd take Miller over Moore every day of the week and twice on Sundays.