• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Comic people on Frank Miller's rant

Started by Dr. Balls,

606 posts in this topic

Dale Roberts

Dale Roberts

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

 

I question if this is true.....

 

Obviously you bought the car because you need a vehicle. I don't know your situation, but I assume you drive that car to work and for necessities. If for whatever reason, you can't pay, then how will you get to work?

 

Sure, you can not pay whenever you like, but you still have the debt, and likely if you don't pay it, the car would be taken, and you are still going to owe money.

 

And honestly, you don't really believe you are not paying interest, do you? I guarantee the interest is figured into the cost of the car somewhere. Maybe not even at the dealership, but with GM, Ford, or wherever you bought and financed it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ComicDoc

ComicDoc

Posted
Posted
or in other words, don't worry about your mess, someone else will clean it up

 

That's what the citizen says. What does the sovereign say?

 

The bedeviled banks. When they made loans willy nilly, they were held up to public scorn as the reckless, unregulated, greedy & predatory source of all our troubles. When they choose caution & care with their lending they are treated with contempt. How dare the lenders stop lending! How dare the banks discontinue loan making! Prejudicial, unfair greed!

 

What will our central back do when China stops playing banker to the US? What does the sovereign say when it isn't willing or isn't able to clean up its mess?

 

 

That will never happen!

 

:sumo:

 

Housing prices will always go up.

 

This is not an internet bubble.

 

drivemystock.com will be a big hit! You'll make millions.

 

Madoff is a great investor, go as big as you can.

 

This new department will make us independant from foreign oil.

 

GM will always be on top.

 

Some things are just permanent.

 

Funny post reminds me of the one time I called into Larry King when he was still on the radio back in the day ( I was late night security in a trailer (mobile home park) in Orlando and would listen while driving around the park) they were talking about human rights in the USSR and the Helsinki Accords. I called and remarked that as long as "the Berlin wall" remained we could do as many accords as we want to but there will never be a true respect for human rights. His words and I quote: "that is never going to change so it is not worth discussing" arrogantly dismissing me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dr. Balls

Dr. Balls

Posted
  • Author
Posted
His words and I quote: "that is never going to change so it is not worth discussing" arrogantly dismissing me!

 

Well, the upshot is - you're going to outlive the dumb b@stard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tonytiger

tonytiger

Posted
Posted
Sad to say that Frank seems to be becoming a shadow of his former self very quickly. Alcohol is a powerful drug.

 

 

 

I think blaming his obvious issues on alcohol is ridiculous. He is a self absorbed, self gratifying, ignorant, attention whore who somehow has come to the opinion that since he used to be a good artist, and a decent writer, people should care what his opinion on various subjects might be.

 

This is the same problem with much of Hollywood. I could care less what Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Angelina Jolie or anyone else thinks about politics/current events. Normal average everyday people have nothing in common with them, and I have no idea why they feel that anyone cares what they think. As if being famous and wealthy makes you knowledgable. The fascination with Hollywood/celebrity is one of the biggest problems with this country.

+1

 

disgusting

 

If this group includes Pro Athletes/Pro musicians then I am with you. Can't stand the fascinations and obsessions society has with "celebrities".

 

 

 

Come on now. Come clean about the Justin Bieber tattoo. :baiting:

 

justin-bieber-new-tattoo-biebers-tattoos.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
thirdgreenham

thirdgreenham

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

...and that's just another reason why it makes sense for Donut to do this. If you are able to pay it off at any time, and there are no extra charges for paying it later, you may as well pay it later. 2016 dollars are most likely only going to be worth a few cents. 2c

 

I also agree that it's best to own rather than owe, absolutely true, however, some folks are in a position to take advantage of free money at 0% interest.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JiveTurkeyMoFo

JiveTurkeyMoFo

Posted
Posted

Furthermore, I'm all for taking advantage of credit card companies with their foolish promotions.

 

Take Citi bank for example. They recently offered those that qualify for their Premiere card, 50,000 Bonus Thank You points if you make a certain dollar value in purchases in the first three months you have the card. Their gift card selection in the Thank You Rewards network is extensive, and 50k points basically translates into $500 worth of gift cards for any number of places we buy from anyway (Walmart, Target, Amazon, Sam's Club, etc.). They even waived the annual fee for the first year, so I applied, used it for a couple of months to reach the spending threshold, then my wife applied, got hers, and we used her card to buy everything (groceries, pay the utilities, etc.). We, of course, paid our bill in full every month to insure we didn't incur any finance charges. I've already claimed my $500 in gift cards, and we'll cash in my wife's bonus points when they get applied to the account at the end of this month. Heck, when I called to cancel my card, they even gave me another 10k points (another $100 gift card) just to keep the account open. Which I will, at least for now, but it'll be cancelled well before that annual fee kicks in.

 

Total cost to Citi Bank to let me use their card: $1,100 in gift cards.

Total cost to me: $0

 

Who got the better end of that deal?

 

Of course, its no wonder Citi needed a bail out with promotions like this. lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites
FlyingDonut

FlyingDonut

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JiveTurkeyMoFo

JiveTurkeyMoFo

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

 

Let's hope its only 10%...and that we won't have to get out the wheelbarrows just to get our cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dale Roberts

Dale Roberts

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

 

Not necessarily true. Wish anyone could say for certain though.

 

regardless, too much risk in my opinion.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
FlyingDonut

FlyingDonut

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

 

Let's hope its only 10%...and that we won't have to get out the wheelbarrows just to get our cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread.

 

If that's the case - and it won't be - then I'm in MUCH better shape.

 

Dale - did you pay cash for your house?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dale Roberts

Dale Roberts

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

 

Let's hope its only 10%...and that we won't have to get out the wheelbarrows just to get our cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread.

 

If that's the case - and it won't be - then I'm in MUCH better shape.

 

Dale - did you pay cash for your house?

 

my house, cars, boat, and property all paid in full

Link to comment
Share on other sites
FlyingDonut

FlyingDonut

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

 

Let's hope its only 10%...and that we won't have to get out the wheelbarrows just to get our cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread.

 

If that's the case - and it won't be - then I'm in MUCH better shape.

 

Dale - did you pay cash for your house?

 

my house, cars, boat, and property all paid in full

 

Why? Why are you not using debt to your advantage? Congratulations on being able to pay for everything in cash. That's great - but why are you penalizing yourself? The mortgage tax deduction (for example) is worth more than the 3% mortgage rate you can get for a 10 year mortgage. If you're worried about risk, take the money you were going to pay for something, put it in a completely safe investment (a CD, a t-Bill), and use debt for your advantage.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Whizzer

Whizzer

Posted
Posted

I have a decent enough credit score whereby I can access interest free credit cards. The CC company give me 12 months interest free on all CC purchases.

 

I just purchased a house and put the redevelopment costs on the interest free credit card. The rent I get from the property will easily pay this Cc bill well within the 12 months.

 

That is truly free money, and I would be a chump not to take advantage of it.

 

When the bill is paid I simply cancel the CC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JiveTurkeyMoFo

JiveTurkeyMoFo

Posted
Posted

 

my house, cars, boat, and property all paid in full

 

I appreciate your financial discipline. My wife and I are very much the same....we don't carry credit card debit, no student loan debt, we own our cars, we're going to be paying off our first house soon, leaving us with just the mortgage on the new one (and frankly, I rather like our mortgage interest deduction). We just happen to add in the extra step of using the bank's money in our favor when it comes to things like credit cards, or if we choose to finance a car, it would be at 0% interest. I really don't see the risk involved, short of something catastrophic, but then, there are two substantial life insurance policies in place for that eventuality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dale Roberts

Dale Roberts

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

 

Let's hope its only 10%...and that we won't have to get out the wheelbarrows just to get our cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread.

 

If that's the case - and it won't be - then I'm in MUCH better shape.

 

Dale - did you pay cash for your house?

 

my house, cars, boat, and property all paid in full

 

Why? Why are you not using debt to your advantage? Congratulations on being able to pay for everything in cash. That's great - but why are you penalizing yourself? The mortgage tax deduction (for example) is worth more than the 3% mortgage rate you can get for a 10 year mortgage. If you're worried about risk, take the money you were going to pay for something, put it in a completely safe investment (a CD, a t-Bill), and use debt for your advantage.

 

 

I do take the money that I would be paying for a mortgage and car payments, and I invest it safely every month. I am using LACK of debt to my advantage.

 

I am not against home loans by the way. Homes and property are generally not a depreciating asset. Except for those in the bubble areas, property has a pretty strong record of appreciating in value.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
FlyingDonut

FlyingDonut

Posted
Posted
and the big new 60" LED HD 1080p 240HZ 3d TV you were planning on buying

 

I have five words to say to that:

 

24 months @ 0% APR. :whee:

 

You do realize that 0% only applies if you can pay it off according to terms. And you do realize that it IS possible to save money until you can pay cash for what you want?

 

But why would you, if the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are selling you the TV are giving you free money? As long as you're paying it under terms, you're saving a significant sum on your money.

 

I bought a car last November. Cost me $45,000. I could (a) pay the $45,000 right then and there OR (b) spread the cost out over 60 months at no interest and no cost to me. I'm getting the car now, and paying it in money five years from now? Done.

 

There are many things I can pay cash for, but why should I if I'm getting free money? Seriously....why?

 

Because it is better to own, than to owe. The debtor is the slave to the lender.

 

Because in that 60 months lies risk. Risk to you, to your job, to your family, to your health. What happens when you wreck that car, can't work, can't pay for it.

 

Or what happens if you lose your job? Or your wife loses her job, or your kids get sick, or whatever.

 

Then I will write the check and be done with it. The lender, in this case, is the slave to me as I have all the power in this situation. If I have to pay the car off tomorrow, I will do so. I'd just as soon pay for the 2011 car in 2016 dollars.

 

Given the way things are going, that 2016 dollar could be worth less than the 2011 dollar...... just sayin

 

Of course it will. That's why I'd rather pay it off in 2016. I'd much rather have my item now and pay for it with money that has 10% less buying power five years from now.

 

Let's hope its only 10%...and that we won't have to get out the wheelbarrows just to get our cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread.

 

If that's the case - and it won't be - then I'm in MUCH better shape.

 

Dale - did you pay cash for your house?

 

my house, cars, boat, and property all paid in full

 

Why? Why are you not using debt to your advantage? Congratulations on being able to pay for everything in cash. That's great - but why are you penalizing yourself? The mortgage tax deduction (for example) is worth more than the 3% mortgage rate you can get for a 10 year mortgage. If you're worried about risk, take the money you were going to pay for something, put it in a completely safe investment (a CD, a t-Bill), and use debt for your advantage.

 

 

I do take the money that I would be paying for a mortgage and car payments, and I invest it safely every month. I am using LACK of debt to my advantage.

 

I am not against home loans by the way. Homes and property are generally not a depreciating asset. Except for those in the bubble areas, property has a pretty strong record of appreciating in value.

 

 

 

 

Well, then you and I are saying the same thing. We're getting to the same goal, just via different means. Check your PMs, by the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing