Nightmare on ebay Street

[Cat-Man_America]

My wife came across this story of destruction and loss. It was unsettling enough that it merits consideration on the CGC boards. Initially I thought this might be best suited for General, but this requires some thoughtful analysis and since the outcome could just as easily impact GA sellers folks here should find it worthy of comment.

 

First of all, the story I've linked has absolutely nothing to do with comics, at least directly. But it does demonstrate, by way of extrapolation, how a dealer in antiquities (ergo raw comics) could be at the mercy of PayPal and ebay if a dissatisfied buyer decides to resolve matters via a PayPal dispute.

 

All you have to do is substitute any raw GA comic valued at over $2000 for a vintage violin. Intrigued? Read on...

 

http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

 

I'm interested in opinions on this story and whether anyone foresees similar issues arising between buyers and sellers of raw (owner graded) comics on ebay. Do folks here feel that this is just an isolated, non-applicable incident or something about which our community should be wary?

[Flex Mentallo]

Bizarre things can happen.

 

I once purchased a Cowpuncher #2 advertised as high grade, which turned out to have a significant fault not mentioned by the seller. The seller refused to accept return. Paypal asked me to return the book at my expense assuring me I would be reimbursed. Then they refunded 50% of the sale price, saying they would try to get the rest - but never did.

 

So the seller got the book back, and I was out half the sale price plus the cost of postage both ways!

 

Caveat emptor!

 

But the story you've just quoted is a real horror story, and I fail to understand Paypal's logic.

[Weird Paper]

That's absurd. Paypal has become a brainless, reasonless monolith -- the likes of which we see way too frequently these days.

[telerites]

Thanks for posting, Cat. That is truly absurd.

[Gotham Kid]

That's absurd. Paypal has become a brainless, reasonless monolith -- the likes of which we see way too frequently these days.

 

Refuse to use PayPal for these and many more reasons... This topic should be moved to CG as I'm sure we'd hear plenty more "horror" stories...

[ashrael]

Why would PayPal ask the buyer to destroy a $2500 violin? It makes no sense why that is even in their dispute resolution (at for anything of value).

[Count]

I wonder how long paypal will last...

 

I think many banks will begin doing what chase just started...Chase QuickPay.

 

It requires only one party (sender or receiver) to have a chase account. You can send money to friends without any fees....

 

I had a few friends send me some cash and It works fine. I did have to go through a verification process to link my bank account to the QuickPay account (You need to create) but that's nothing more than what paypal requires. :shrug:

 

I give it a few years before paypal is done. Banks are waking up

[Cat-Man_America]

Why would PayPal ask the buyer to destroy a $2500 violin? It makes no sense why that is even in their dispute resolution (at for anything of value).

 

I think it has something to do with a vague PayPal policy about destroying counterfeit products and reimbursing buyers, but if that's the case, these guidelines were taken to a ridiculous extreme. What is most disturbing though, is that it seems to allow for the destruction of sellers property and loss of income without warning or recourse.

 

Regardless of intent, this policy seems to allow PayPal the right to deem as counterfeit any item that a buyer claims is not all original as listed! Ergo, any raw comic with reconstruction, reinforcement, tear seals, missed color touch, etc., could hypothetically end up on the chopping block if a buyer is dissatisfied.

 

Given this scenario, the buyer would be allowed to destroy the item, show proof to ebay, and then get his/her money refunded by PayPal while the seller is SOL. Any way you look at this, it's just wrong.

[59Chevy-migration]

I wonder how long paypal will last...

 

I think many banks will begin doing what chase just started...Chase QuickPay.

 

It requires only one party (sender or receiver) to have a chase account. You can send money to friends without any fees....

 

I had a few friends send me some cash and It works fine. I did have to go through a verification process to link my bank account to the QuickPay account (You need to create) but that's nothing more than what paypal requires. :shrug:

 

I give it a few years before paypal is done. Banks are waking up

 

Ebay isn't going to let paypal fail.

[Flex Mentallo]

I wonder how long paypal will last...

 

I think many banks will begin doing what chase just started...Chase QuickPay.

 

It requires only one party (sender or receiver) to have a chase account. You can send money to friends without any fees....

 

I had a few friends send me some cash and It works fine. I did have to go through a verification process to link my bank account to the QuickPay account (You need to create) but that's nothing more than what paypal requires. :shrug:

 

I give it a few years before paypal is done. Banks are waking up

 

Ebay isn't going to let paypal fail.

 

Unless Ebay fails...

[brendanb438]

I had to deal with PayPal and some counterfeit NFL jerseys I ended up receiving this summer. Once I received the jerseys it was clear they were counterfeit (very good ones but had a couple key features of being counterfeit). I opened a dispute and started the process of shipping the jerseys back to the seller. Out of nowhere once my dispute was actually read by a person at PayPal I received an email telling me NOT TO SHIP them back and to wait for further instructions.

 

A few days later I was asked for evidence that they were fake which was odd. I ended up having to "go to a sports clothing store and asking a manager to print up a letter on their store letterhead" stating these are counterfeits and fax this over to PayPal. Once they received this they closed my dispute, refund my money and then demanded I destroy them and not return them to the seller.

 

So I guess now anyone who sells anything and gets paid via PayPal will have to worry that if the buyer claims counterfeit and can give some evidence showing the item in question is fake then the seller will get nothing back and be out the money.

 

-Brendan

[Duffman_Comics]

This incident is having ramifications that are likely to be very negative for PayPal.

 

It's been picked up by a local broadsheet here.

 

Whoever ordered the destruction has some 'splainin' to do . . .

 

 

 

'Heartbreaking': PayPal orders buyer to destroy 'antique violin'

January 6, 2012 - 3:45PM

 

A picture the buyer of a violin sent to the selller, showing they had destroyed it.

PayPal has again come under fire, this time for ordering the buyer of an antique French violin to destroy it to get a refund - rather than send it back to the seller - after the giant deemed it a fake.

 

The seller says she has been left $US2500 out of pocket and without a "violin that made it through WWII" and wants to stop PayPal from ordering other antiquities to be destroyed when their authenticity is questioned.

 

Her view is backed by the owner of Sydney Violins, Zai Sheng, 63, who told Fairfax today that he believed the violin was not a counterfeit after being shown a picture of it smashed into pieces.

 

The Canadian buyer had taken the picture and sent it to the seller, a woman known only as Erica, who then wrote to Regretsy of the "heartbreaking experience".

 

She chose Regretsy, a site that features photos of interesting handmade artefacts, to highlight the dispute because it had recently had its own troubles with PayPal when its charitable gift buying program's account was shut down.

 

Erica's letter recounted how the buyer had disputed the musical instrument's label.

 

 

PayPal's policy.

"Rather than have the violin returned to me, PayPal made the buyer DESTROY the violin in order to get his money back," she said. "They somehow deemed the violin as 'counterfeit' even though there is no such thing in the violin world."

 

She added that the buyer was so "proud of himself" that he "sent me a photo of the destroyed violin".

 

"I am now out a violin that made it through WWII as well as $US2500. This is of course, upsetting. But my main goal ... is to prevent PayPal from ordering the destruction of violins and other antiquities that they know nothing about. It is beyond me why PayPal simply didn't have the violin returned to me," she said.

 

According to Regretsy, the item had also reportedly been "examined and authenticated by a top luthier" before the sale.

 

Mr Sheng, who has been making violins for more than 20 years and playing them since he was a young boy, said the violin appeared authentic. He said you could "tell straight away" whether a violin was a fake by looking at the way it had been made, the varnish and discolouration.

 

But he said the buyer had paid too much for it. "I think it is the buyer's fault [here]," he said. "I don't think the seller is at fault. Even in a very good condition $US2500 ... is too much."

 

Mr Sheng said many people who bought violins online did not understand them. "You can buy from online but you have to know what you are looking for."

 

In a statement, PayPal said that, while it could not talk about Erica's case due to its privacy policy, it did "carefully review each case, and in general we may ask a buyer to destroy counterfeit goods if they supply signed evidence from a knowledgeable third party that the goods are indeed counterfeit".

 

"For example, if somebody purchased a fake handbag, we'd ask them to contact the manufacturer of the bag, or reputable distributor, to authenticate that it is counterfeit.

 

"Further, we then ask the customer to sign a statutory declaration supporting their claim. As always, we encourage buyers and sellers to settle disputes first before requesting PayPal to intervene."

 

It said the reason it reserved the option to ask a buyer to destroy goods was that "in many countries, including the US, it is a criminal offense to mail counterfeit goods back to a seller".

 

It said it was possible for people to buy a real item and a fake one and use the fake one to claim a refund, leaving the seller of the real item out of pocket. But it said it would "report" such activity. This kind of illegal activity has been highlighted by Rik Ferguson of online security company Trend Micro.

 

"This is one of the benefits of PayPal. We have a closed loop system - that is visibility (a record of personal details/transactions) of both buyer and seller. We are proud of the secure platform we have developed to enable buyers and sellers to confidently transact across the country/the globe," PayPal said.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/heartbreaking-paypal-orders-buyer-to-destroy-antique-violin-20120106-1pnwu.html#ixzz1ieUrwDlj

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

I find this story hard to believe (although I don't dispute it's veracity.) It seems unbelievable that a corporation would take on the risk of asking for an antiquity to be destroyed based on the subjective analysis of an appraiser. To me it sounds like someone didn't apply common sense to a problem (uncommonly common these days it seems.)

 

I suspect the seller has a great lawsuit and Paypal chalks it up to the cost of business and some nameless employee gets reprimanded at best and fired at worst. In the meantime the antiquity is destroyed. Not good and it makes me think twice about the EBay / Paypal route as a seller.

[excelsior1986]

That is just outrageous. Could that person not deal with the seller to get a refund or is everyone a mindless robot that needs a third party to tell them what to do in a situation.

[brendanb438]

That is just outrageous. Could that person not deal with the seller to get a refund or is everyone a mindless robot that needs a third party to tell them what to do in a situation.

 

 

You don't even want to truly know how Fed up the going to a third party to get evidence that something is a counterfeit and sending this to PayPal really is.

 

Let's just say that if you are good with photoshop you can be your own third party "expert" on that the item is fake and PayPal will do ZERO followup and just take the letter faxed over to them as good enough for them to rule in your favor. Hell doesn't matter that the store you went to is made up, they don't follow up. PayPal does not care about sellers at all.

[MagnetoWasRight]

Here's a thought that just popped into my head...say I buy a book on ebay, receive this book and then make a claim to paypal that its a reprint and not as represented in the listing...say a X-Men #1 that's raw, in higher grade. I buy the book, claim its a reprint or something, and paypal tells me to destroy it. What's stopping me from lying like this, destroying another low grade X-Men #1 and sending them pics of that book destroyed. Then, I'm up a HG raw book, I get my money back, and the seller gets screwed completely. This is a messy thing paypal is doing...scams could become even more frequent.

 

On a side note, if I bought a CGC'd book, would paypal honor a claim that the book was a reprint or something since its been graded by a third party?

[brendanb438]

Here's a thought that just popped into my head...say I buy a book on ebay, receive this book and then make a claim to paypal that its a reprint and not as represented in the listing...say a X-Men #1 that's raw, in higher grade. I buy the book, claim its a reprint or something, and paypal tells me to destroy it. What's stopping me from lying like this, destroying another low grade X-Men #1 and sending them pics of that book destroyed. Then, I'm up a HG raw book, I get my money back, and the seller gets screwed completely. This is a messy thing paypal is doing...scams could become even more frequent.

 

On a side note, if I bought a CGC'd book, would paypal honor a claim that the book was a reprint or something since its been graded by a third party?

 

All you need for this to work is something on what looks like official letterhead from a made up store and the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons at PayPal will believe it. They are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons at PayPal.

 

When I had to deal with the counterfeit jerseys I couldn't believe how they handle things. I destroyed them like I was suppose to, but I could have kept them.

 

I couldn't believe they wanted me to just go to some store that sells jerseys and go up to them and be like hey PayPal wants you to put down on your stores letterhead that these jerseys are Chinese knockoffs. You don't mind taking the time to do this for me do you?

 

I called them back and asked if it had to be a major retail store or if it could be a local store and they said either is fine. They never even followed up on the "store" that helped me confirm these were fakes.

 

 

EDIT: With all the publicity that this story is beginning to get PayPal is going to have no choice but to change how they handle counterfeits.