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Collectors of baseball cards striking out

Started by supapimp,

802 posts in this topic

mintcollector

mintcollector

Posted
Posted
One card does not a hobby make...

 

Agreed. But you're missing my point.

 

My point is that the market for vintage cards never disappeared. The only "market" that collapsed was for cards from the late eighties onward. But that "market" was just a shell game. It was all just a pyramid scam by dealers to lure naive buyers into hoarding product that they could order in unlimited quantity. There was never really a market for these latter day cards, so to talk of this "market" collapsing is an oxymoron.

 

:preach:

 

Well said. Stating that the baseball card market is dead is like stating that the comic book market is dead due to what occurred in the 90's. While I know a lot of so called collectors were buying basebal cards post 1980, just like speculators bought comic books in the 90's hoping to cash in.

 

Then came Beanie Babies and now we have the wonderful world of Lego 'investors' to contend with. This 'bubble' will eventually pop too.

 

 

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MisterX

MisterX

Posted
Posted

 

I just read this as well.

 

The sad thing is, I'm not sure there will be any real reprocussions...people have suspected that card's been trimmed for years, and, presumably, their attitude toward PSA has already been affected by that knowledge.

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bill977

bill977

Posted
Posted

 

I just read this as well.

 

The sad thing is, I'm not sure there will be any real reprocussions...people have suspected that card's been trimmed for years, and, presumably, their attitude toward PSA has already been affected by that knowledge.

i am afraid you are right.i would like to know how much of mastros stuff went to,or came from barry halper
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ComicConnoisseur

ComicConnoisseur

Posted
Posted

 

I just read this as well.

 

The sad thing is, I'm not sure there will be any real reprocussions...people have suspected that card's been trimmed for years, and, presumably, their attitude toward PSA has already been affected by that knowledge.

I wonder who will be affected the most from this?

PSA the baseball card authority who said it was an original and unaltered

or

Mastro who could be looking at least 3 years in a federal prison for shilling auctions. and altering baseball cards?

hm

 

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kidcolt

kidcolt

Posted
Posted

Collecting cards is like collecting comics or anything else. You have to find your niche in it, find what makes you happy and keeps you enjoying it. I have gone back to my childhood days of collecting basic opc hockey sets and players. Growing up we always just bought packs of opc hockey and collected the sets, our favorite teams, star players and then traders. Cards like comics have become big business. Autographs, GU, low numbered cards and inserts, grading etc...money money money. The joy of collecting has been taken out of it for so many people me included. Now I collect with my 12 year old son and we collect OPC again just as I did as a kid and we do our OPC hockey sticker book. I now enjoy collecting again. Hopefully comics and cards can bring kids back in and make it an enjoyable hobby for them and theuir families.

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MasterChief

MasterChief

Posted
Posted

I wonder who will be affected the most from this?

PSA the baseball card authority who said it was an original and unaltered

or

Mastro who could be looking at least 3 years in a federal prison for shilling auctions. and altering baseball cards?

hm

 

Good question.

 

Bill Hughes, the PSA grader who was a member of the team that graded the Gretzky T206, stated that he knew the card was trimmed during an interview for the book "The Card: Collectors, Con Men, and the True Story of History's Most Desired Baseball Card ".

 

However, David Hall, the president of Collectors Universe, the parent company of PSA, said last summer after the federal grand jury indicted Bill Mastro and his associates on fraud charges that Hughes has since denied making those comments. Hall claims Hughes says it is an “out and out lie” that he knew the card had been trimmed.

 

It's a very twisted tale, to say the least. Incidentally, for those that may be curious...

 

As per PSA Card Grading Standards, the company will not grade altered cards.

 

 

UNGRADEABLE CARDS:

 

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

 

NO GRADE DEFINITIONS

 

If the grade of your card is available and is listed with one of the following grades, this card was determined to be ungradable for the following reasons.

 

• N-1 Evidence of Trimming - When a card's edge has been altered, a card doctor may use scissors, scalpel, cutter, or any other cutting instrument. A trimmed card may show one of the following: Hook up or down, have one razor sharp edge, a difference in toning along the edge, a wavy look.

 

• N-2 Evidence of Restoration - When a card's paper stock is built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.

 

• N-3 Evidence of Recoloration - Where a card's color has been artificially improved.

 

• N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit.

 

• N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring and trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.

 

• N-6 Minimum Size Requirement - When a card is significantly undersized according to factory specifications. You will be given a voucher good for another submission for the same type of service.

 

• N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.

 

• N-8 Miscut - This term is used when the factory cut is an abnormal cut. The grading fees are returned. You will be given a voucher good for another submission for the same type of service.

 

• N-9 Don't Grade - When we do not grade an issue. The cards may be oversized or an obscure issue. The grading fees are refunded. You will be given a voucher good for another submission for the same type of service.

 

• N-0 Authentic Only - This means that PSA is only certifying that the item is genuine, without a numerical grade. This may be due to the existence of an alteration, one with malice or otherwise, a major defect or the original submitter may have requested that PSA encapsulate the card without a grade. The "Authentic" label means that the item, in our opinion, is real but nothing more.

 

PSA Card Grading Standards

 

 

 

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Aces

Aces

Posted
Posted

 

• N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring and trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.

 

 

So the card guys can tell...? hm

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MasterChief

MasterChief

Posted
Posted
Interesting. I guess their biggest mistake was not setting up in Texas where employee shill bidding is allowed?

One would think so based on reading these boards over the years, but the State where the conspiracy to commit fraud from is irrelevant in this case. Bill Mastro and his business partners are charged with mail and wire fraud related to Mastro Auctions, an online auction house.

 

"Mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It is a federal crime in the United States. In order to convict, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant (1) used either mail or wire communications in the foreseeable furtherance, (2) of a scheme to defraud, (3) involving a material deception, (4) with the intent to deprive another of, (5) either property or honest services."

 

Each count of mail and wire fraud against Mastro and his friends carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine and restitution is mandatory.

 

Mastro initially pleaded not guilty to the charges. He tried to change that plea by striking a deal with the government for a 30 month or less prison term. The Court rejected that deal. Both government prosecutors and the Mastro defense are now trying to hammer out another deal.

 

The following is the government's plea agreement memo, which was presented to the Court earlier this week.

 

With all the talk lately on the boards about shill bidding and the legality of same, it's a very interesting read. The memo lays out the government's theories for calculating losses as a result of various shill bidding scenarios used during the scheme to defraud.

 

 

 

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ComicConnoisseur

ComicConnoisseur

Posted
Posted
FlyingDonut had you beat several months ago on that one. ;)

True, but today he put it officially on record that he altered cards for profits, and bilked collectors out of their money.

It also should be interesting as part of this new deal is Mastro will now cooperate with authorities against other dealers who were in on more fixes. It looks like a whole can of worms are opening up here in the collectibles field because of this.

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originalisbest

originalisbest

Posted
Posted
FlyingDonut had you beat several months ago on that one. ;)

True, but today he put it officially on record that he altered cards for profits, and bilked collectors out of their money.

It also should be interesting as part of this new deal is Mastro will now cooperate with authorities against other dealers who were in on more fixes. It looks like a whole can of worms are opening up here in the collectibles field because of this.

 

Point made! Few are as unscrupulous as Mastro. Would be interesting to see if those he chooses to finger are as equally reprehensible, or, perhaps just as likely, guilty of not going along with him back when, and the subject of smeary retribution.

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