When is restoration not considered restoration? (color touch, glue)

[BriD.]

My question comes up from looking at 2 specific books currently up for auction on comiclink.com. The first one is Terrific Comics #5. It has a blue universal label but it is noted that it has very minor color touch on cover and very minor amount of glue on cover.

The second book is Silver Streak #6. It has a purple restored label and is noted small amount of color touch on cover and glue on cover.

The very first thing listed on the CGC website in the section about restoration is color touch. What is the difference between very minor and small amount? And why should that even matter? Color touch is color touch right? And what about glue? Can anyone explain why the Terrific #5 does not have a purple label? Below are the links to the 2 books up for auction.

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fdefault.asp%3FFocused%3D1%26x%3D24%26y%3D4%26pg%3D21%23Item_930666&id=930666

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fdefault.asp%3FFocused%3D1%26x%3D25%26y%3D12%26pg%3D18%23Item_930759&id=930759

[VintageComics]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

[Tony S]

And the decision has been controversial from day it was made.

[FFB]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

[foul_play-migration]

There was a post yesterday (?) that said CGC made this rule so people could get a blue label on Mile High books that had restoration. Any truth to this?

[FFB]

There was a post yesterday (?) that said CGC made this rule so people could get a blue label on Mile High books that had restoration. Any truth to this?

 

That is more or less true, but the way you word it isn't exactly how the thought process went.

 

The way the thought process went is that there were several Mile High books that only had the most minimal dot of CT or minimal dot of glue to seal a tear, and the book would have probably been 9.4-ish before the "restoration" was done. No one in the industry considered these books (which were well known) as being "restored" books. This was true not only for the people who owned the books, but it was also true for people who were buying the books, who paid record prices for books they knew to have a dot of color touch or glue.

 

People viewed these books on their own merits, rather than as books that were damaged previously and only looked to be in their apparent grade because they were restored.

 

And it wasn't just for Mile Highs, though it may seem that way because the Mile High collection was huge and the books were trading hands back when people thought it was ok to apply CT to a book like a Mile High. There are Larsons (like the MF#52) that are in blue label slabs with the glue noted on the label. The important thing is that the buyer knows what he is getting.

[BriD.]

Thanks everyone for the replies. While I'm satisfied that I got an answer to my question I'm not necessarily happy with the answer. But since it seems like this is a topic that has been greatly discussed in the past I'm going to keep from further expressing my opinion on the matter. Now, CGC starting to charge for grading notes... I think that needs a new thread.

[VintageComics]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

 

You can't remember what you wrote?

 

 

 

[comicdonna]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

I am guessing the glue or color touch has to be a small amount?

[Tony S]

Thanks everyone for the replies. While I'm satisfied that I got an answer to my question I'm not necessarily happy with the answer. But since it seems like this is a topic that has been greatly discussed in the past I'm going to keep from further expressing my opinion on the matter. Now, CGC starting to charge for grading notes... I think that needs a new thread.

 

Already been done - and ongoing. 159 pages and counting....

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5631210&gonew=1#UNREAD

[Ze-man]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

 

You can't remember what you wrote?

 

 

 

That's lawyerspeak for "I don't want to be on the record for saying what everyone in the room already knows."

 

[VintageComics]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

 

You can't remember what you wrote?

 

 

 

That's lawyerspeak for "I don't want to be on the record for saying what everyone in the room already knows."

 

Only Scott knows for sure. Scott might be talking about the reason why they do it. What I said is still technically correct as an explanation for what they do in practice.

 

 

[Ze-man]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

 

You can't remember what you wrote?

 

 

 

That's lawyerspeak for "I don't want to be on the record for saying what everyone in the room already knows."

 

Only Scott knows for sure. Scott might be talking about the reason why they do it. What I said is still technically correct as an explanation for what they do in practice.

 

 

Then why did you say

CGC decided

 

 

What did they decide again?

[VintageComics]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

 

You can't remember what you wrote?

 

 

 

That's lawyerspeak for "I don't want to be on the record for saying what everyone in the room already knows."

 

Only Scott knows for sure. Scott might be talking about the reason why they do it. What I said is still technically correct as an explanation for what they do in practice.

 

 

Then why did you say

CGC decided

 

 

What did they decide?

 

I said CGC decided because the OP was asking about the difference between a purple label with CT/glue and a blue label with CT/glue.

 

They decided to allow glue and CT into a blue label as long as it did not improve the grade.

 

 

 

[Ze-man]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

 

You can't remember what you wrote?

 

 

 

That's lawyerspeak for "I don't want to be on the record for saying what everyone in the room already knows."

 

Only Scott knows for sure. Scott might be talking about the reason why they do it. What I said is still technically correct as an explanation for what they do in practice.

 

 

Then why did you say

CGC decided

 

 

What did they decide?

 

I said CGC decided because the OP was asking about the difference between a purple label with CT/glue and a blue label with CT/glue.

 

They decided to allow glue and CT into a blue label as long as it did not improve the grade.

 

 

 

You said it again.

 

[VintageComics]

I enjoy repeating myself when I'm right.

I enjoy repeating myself when I'm right.

 

 

[FFB]

CGC decided that for Golden Age books if there was any colour touch or glue that improved the grade that the book would be put into a restored holder with the final grade being the apparent one. If the book had any colour touch or glue but the grade had NOT improved then they would factor the additional colour touch or glue into the grade as a defect and grade the book accordingly.

 

 

That's close to what Borock told me about how it works, but not quite right. There's a thread about it somewhere where I laid it out. Can't remember where though, as it was probably five or six years ago. I can't remember exactly how it went but I know it wasn't exactly like this - something similar.

 

Someone who is more enterprising with the search function might find it.

 

You can't remember what you wrote?

 

 

 

That's lawyerspeak for "I don't want to be on the record for saying what everyone in the room already knows."

 

Only Scott knows for sure. Scott might be talking about the reason why they do it. What I said is still technically correct as an explanation for what they do in practice.

 

 

What you said, Roy, is close, but my recollection is that the minor CT might even have increased the grade by one level while still being in the blue label. I think the book just got downgraded one notch with the notation of CT/glue, instead of getting full credit for the CT/glue's improvement of the apparent grade. My memory on this is fuzzy though because it was years ago that I spoke to Steve about this.

[VintageComics]

My understanding is that if the CT/glue is minimal enough to keep the book in a blue label it actually lowers the grade by one grade point because it's counted as a defect rather than restoration.

 

I owned a Marvel Mystery #5 with a touch of CT on the top right corner but the book was in a blue label (it was actually arguable that it was colour touch as the book came from an OO collection and there was no reason to CT the book in that area). My understanding was that if someone simply "clipped" the CT on the top right corner, the book would have improved from a 4.0 to a 4.5 blue label with no notations. To me the grading rule didn't make sense, but it was what it was.

 

 

[FFB]

You and I are saying the same thing. Let's say the book was unrestored 9.2. A dot of glue is applied on a bindery tear that would make the book appear to be 9.4. Book gets a blue label 9.0.

 

My understanding is that if the CT/glue is minimal enough to keep the book in a blue label it actually lowers the grade by one grade point because it's counted as a defect rather than restoration.

 

I owned a Marvel Mystery #5 with a touch of CT on the top right corner but the book was in a blue label (it was actually arguable that it was colour touch as the book came from an OO collection and there was no reason to CT the book in that area). My understanding was that if someone simply "clipped" the CT on the top right corner, the book would have improved from a 4.0 to a 4.5 blue label with no notations. To me the grading rule didn't make sense, but it was what it was.

 

[VintageComics]

You and I are saying the same thing. Let's say the book was unrestored 9.2. A dot of glue is applied on a bindery tear that would make the book appear to be 9.4. Book gets a blue label 9.0.

 

My understanding is that if the CT/glue is minimal enough to keep the book in a blue label it actually lowers the grade by one grade point because it's counted as a defect rather than restoration.

 

I owned a Marvel Mystery #5 with a touch of CT on the top right corner but the book was in a blue label (it was actually arguable that it was colour touch as the book came from an OO collection and there was no reason to CT the book in that area). My understanding was that if someone simply "clipped" the CT on the top right corner, the book would have improved from a 4.0 to a 4.5 blue label with no notations. To me the grading rule didn't make sense, but it was what it was.

 

 

Sort of but not quite.

 

a) If the book was otherwise a 9.2 and the glue was on the cover but not on the bindery tear the book would grade a 9.0 because the glue would be counted as a defect dropping the grade.

 

b) If the book was otherwise a 9.2 and the glue was on the bindery tear, but the glued bindery tear didn't increase the technical grade, the book would grade a 9.0 because the glue would be counted as a defect dropping the grade.

 

Situations a) and b) are identical because the glue is incidental...it does not increase the over all grade of the book so it's counted as a defect and the grade is discounted.

 

If the book was a 9.2 and the glue was on the bindery tear and it increased the grade, the book would go into a purple holder with the increased apparent grade (9.4 in this case).

 

I think that's how it was explained to me.