Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[sterlingcomics]

Yeah, Banner. You know nothing about comics. Listen to your King!

[VintageComics]

They're like the anti-Mmehdy/drdonaldblake, the yin-yang of the forums...

 

Exactly. You two say something stupid, the other guys say something smart, and it all balances out. Glad you're objective enough to see your own faults (thumbs u

 

Is this Stu Cathell?

[ciorac]

Angelo

 

Roy

 

Bill FU

 

DrBanner

 

What the heck did I do?

Not you.

 

[mrwoogieman]

They're like the anti-Mmehdy/drdonaldblake, the yin-yang of the forums...

 

Exactly. You two say something stupid, the other guys say something smart, and it all balances out. Glad you're objective enough to see your own faults (thumbs u

 

Is this Stu Cathell?

 

 

You have to say it three times like beetlejuice!

 

[ciorac]

Angelo

 

Roy

 

Bill FU

 

DrBanner

 

What the heck did I do?

Not you.

 

Update:

 

Ciorac (thumbs u

 

Gator (thumbs u

 

 

Heritage (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

Heck, go read Halperin's own words in an article somewhere. He's never been shy about The Game, coins or comics. So I can't understand the mental gymnastics it must take to keep rose-colored glasses contantly in place. Or the level of denial required to maintain it's just some fans with their Overstreet lucking into a few bucks along the way.

 

 

There's no denying there is a "system" if you are going to describe it that way. Every business model uses a "system" of some sort. The model needs to be efficient, honest and profitable.

 

Of course Doug needed "some type of clear vision, or plan, carefully orchestrated to take advantage of caveats the system offers" but that is no different than anyone else. Everyone has a goal and uses whatever means at their disposal to try and reach that goal. Some people use legal means, some illegal means, and some people a combination of both.

 

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

 

The truth is that everything in the hobby has evolved over time, much like anything else, and people will find opportunities in any sort of business model. Not representing that in a balanced manner when talking about it leads to an imbalanced view of what is actually going on to outside observers...and then people believe stuff like:

 

1) CGC hammers NCB wear so they can get press and resubs to increase revenue when in fact they don't hammer NCB wear.

 

2) CGC's grading is partial based on who is submitting the books when in fact they are impartial

 

3) CGC's primary concern is to "bump" grades to increase revenue by bumping books into the next tier when in fact, they only do it if there is a flagrant discrepancy between the tier the book is submitted under and the tier it should be in, etc etc.

 

My glasses aren't rose covered, just looking for a balanced perspective.

 

 

[Ogami]

Angelo

 

Roy

 

Bill FU

 

DrBanner

 

What the heck did I do?

Not you.

 

Update:

 

Ciorac (thumbs u

 

Gator (thumbs u

 

 

Heritage (thumbs u

 

Mmedhy

 

Now we're full circle.

[red rocks-migration]

Know in advance you are gonna pay, deal with it and keep clicking till you win.

 

If you are a true collector these books are not gonna come back on the market for a long long time.

 

 

Mitch;

 

What is your definition of a true collector and do you really believe that it is going to be these so-called true collectors who are going to MANNUP to buy these books from Doug.

 

My personal feeling is that the true collectors are not even going to bother bidding for these books becasue they most likely already have their Marvel collections intact by now and at a significantly lower price point. They will certainly watch with interest and express their ooh's & aah's and cheer them on, but to actually bid on any of them. Absolutely no way as they probably finished off their runs decades ago and certainly not anal enough to pay 6 figures for only slight upgrades in books that have been manipulated, remanipulated and resubmitted countless times.

 

I strongly doubt that long-time collectors such as Bangzoom, Berk, Geppi, Anderson,etc. will have any interest at all in these books considering their expected price levels. Even long-time dealer collectors such as Bedrock and Fishler will not be bidding on these books. All of these guys probably already have multiple sets of these Marvel runs. I am not even sure if somebody like Brulato will be a major player for these books as he also brought the majority of his runs much earlier in the game. I am sure that he will be interested in some of them, but probably not on a widespread scale. I also don't see the new generation of CGC flippers chasing after these books as all of the upside potential has already been squeezed and shaved out of these books by the time Doug got through with them.

 

I really see these books going to a new type of investor similar to Parrino and Keller when they came into the market like a flash of lightning for a short while, spent a ton of money picking up books, and then ended up losing a significant portion of their investment. Another one was Kramer back in the mid 90's, although he was at least smart enough to hold onto his books long enough to make some good coin on his subsequent sales. I would not call these guys as true collectors and in today's generation of CGC day traders, my bets are that many of these books will reappear in the marketplace in the not too distant future and available at a substantial discount to their realized Heritage price.

 

Mitch, since you must see yourself as a true collector and this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to get the best of the best when it comes to SA Marvels, I assume that you are going to be at the front of the trough when it comes to bidding on these books from Doug's personal collection.

 

And this is exactly why Doug should have gone outside the hobby, find some NYC person with $300 million; someone like that could drop $10 million for a priceless, as a whole because of the difficulty of finding it, comic collection. People like that think nothing of buying a piece of art for $10 million, this collection as a whole is irreplaceable as well.

 

Doug was using the old thinking that he can sell these on Heritage individually to max the price, but he's going to end up disappointed just from shear lack of money available. Its like Chuck taking the Mile Highs to the first comic room, he sucked every dollar out of that room, but he didnt get a big price because there wasn't enough money in the room.

[TupennyConan]

I'm happy to be part of this spectacle.

[drdonaldblake]

the new buyers in the last 2 years, so ive heard rumored , are the Facebook guy, multimillionaires from China (to whom 2-4 million USD is pocket change) and of course Di Caprio

 

 

Much more than going on that, yes some hollywood, but wrong continent about the 5-6 new buyers( ALTHOUGH I have heard about 1 far east new collector), Ask ha, they know them ALL.

 

A drdonaldblake and Mmehdy dialogue piques my interests. .

If by "piques my interests" you mean "makes me want to blow my brains out because of the utter stupidity of both parties", then yes, me too.

 

Tim; you've hit a nerve here.

 

DrDonaldBlake saved my Young Azz when I first came on the Boards. he warned me that my FF #11 in 9.4 (which was top census along with only 3 others at the time) was worth far more than I likely thought and to be very careful. I quickly got a bid for 4X's Guide, decide to ask around and did much better because of his unsolicited advice.

 

If I ever get "Down Under" i owe that man a fine dinner... (thumbs u

 

 

hey Harry

how are you doing? hope ur well!

what i see on these boards in the last few years is alot of arrogance, hate and unfounded elitism- there is a small group of ppl here who are haters of others and think they are above everyone else.

karma is a person_without_enough_empathy and it will come to haunt them in some way down the line.

do you ever make it to the SD CON?

i may see you there one day!

take care

[drdonaldblake]

A drdonaldblake and Mmehdy dialogue piques my interests. .

If by "piques my interests" you mean "makes me want to blow my brains out because of the utter stupidity of both parties", then yes, me too.

 

Tim; you've hit a nerve here.

 

DrDonaldBlake saved my Young Azz when I first came on the Boards. he warned me that my FF #11 in 9.4 (which was top census along with only 3 others at the time) was worth far more than I likely thought and to be very careful. I quickly got a bid for 4X's Guide, decide to ask around and did much better because of his unsolicited advice.

 

If I ever get "Down Under" i owe that man a fine dinner... (thumbs u

 

Harry, I knew Ben even before the Boards, and god knows I`ve defended him enough times when he was getting abused by the rest of the Boards for some amazingly stupid things that he would utter from time to time. But the last straw for me was when he started his MM appreciation thread in GA (and no, I don`t think he was being sarcastic when he started it).

 

By all means buy Ben his dinner, he undoubtedly deserves it. Even a broken clock is right 2 times a day.

 

im not on here 24/7

i see alot of hate for Mitch Mehdy

i like his posts so i started a support thread

others will hate, so be it

 

karma is a biatch

hi tim! hope all is well in HK

[Davenport]

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

The 'System' is what it is. Could it be applied in a 'negative' manner? Damn straight.

 

This is what I mean by "game the system": to take advantage of others, without appearing to do so.

 

Think the System of encapsulating comics is primed to do that if one chooses? Take advantage, covertly? Here's a question for you: Can a transaction be mutual if one party is unaware?

 

Now look at how long you've been on this board and think... Lot's of heated debates. Why?

 

You were around when the PCS deal blew up. Wasn't that service offered quietly to a select few for a time? So some folks were aware, but most weren't. Weird, huh?

 

You saw the Ewert deal. What did you make of it? Lone nutjob who inexplicably went rogue, or someone caught up in a culture that seeks advantage?

 

You read about Pedigree notations being dropped to mask bumps in grade. Why would someone do that? Seems kinda dumb... until you notice the dollars.

 

You read about Schmell attempting to get one of Ewert's trims back thought the system. What did you think of that? Someone caught up in a culture that seeks advantage, or another solo incident?

 

What do you think of secret criteria for grading? Or secret methodology for book refurbishing? Or a general lack of disclosure out in the marketplace? Could any of those be applied to gain advantage, without appearing to do so?

 

Anyway, decide for yourself what to make of the past decade. I don't think my personal conclusions are "negative" or "anti-cgc" or "purist", or any of of that nonsense. I think they're realistic, based on reality.

 

Or... I might be a kook wearing a tinfoil hat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

 

The 'system' was known to only a select few for many, many years. The secrets were keenly protected, the buyers (the 'marks', if you will) deliberately left out of the loop.

 

Please explain how this was 'positive' for the majority of us?

 

I'll wait.

[Gotham Kid]

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

 

The 'system' was known to only a select few for many, many years. The secrets were keenly protected, the buyers (the 'marks', if you will) deliberately left out of the loop.

 

Please explain how this was 'positive' for the majority of us?

 

I'll wait.

 

[bane]

It's taken what, a decade to set the stage?

 

Just out of curiosity, where do you stand on the concept of fiat money?

 

Just a basic grasp of the concept, with no particular stance. Why do you ask?

 

Are you hinting grade-labels were developed as a type of 'fiat currency', used within the comic collecting community? Sorry, just not sure where you're going with it in this context.

 

No, I just think you're reaching a bit in your calling it [comics] a "system" and think your description much better describes the Federal Reserve and how all of North America has been enslaved into a debt it will never repay while the few rich at the top keep getting richer.

 

Now the Fed, on the other hand...that stuff is documented in detail...but nobody seems to care.

 

 

Some care (thumbs u

 

Anyway, back to the books... high grade, top collection, end of the day its still Marvel Drek

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

 

The 'system' was known to only a select few for many, many years. The secrets were keenly protected, the buyers (the 'marks', if you will) deliberately left out of the loop.

 

Please explain how this was 'positive' for the majority of us?

 

I'll wait.

 

While I am not entirely in agreement with the way CGC grades books, conveys restoration or deals with certain issues, as a whole the concept of grading comics has standardized the grading scale, made the previously hidden restoration found on comics easily explained on a label and increased the ability of a person to sell comics on the internet without a middle man. Those are all very big positives in my opinion.

 

Where we differ is the notion that there is some covert operation going on, keep special knowledge guarded at everyone's expense, and I'll explain why:

 

I've known about CGC since about 2003 when I slabbed my first books. Since then I've come to know (many personally and in a great detail) including many of the people involved in what you and Dav are calling "the system" or "the game". I've spent a lot of time reading and learning about it on here and talking to people about it, as have you and Dav and many others.

 

I can tell you, based on my experience that there is no "grand master plan" as a whole to either "keenly protect" from the general public or to "reveal knowledge" to the select few.

 

That is just a myth in my opinion that propels itself through those that dislike the pressing of comics, and it is fair to dislike the pressing cf comics. I just don't think it's fair to propel things that are not entirely accurate.

 

The grading company was started and people started submitting books. The grading company kept their grading criteria "secret", they did not reveal them to a select few. Those dealers that sat in on the meetings for consulting before the grading company was started still don't know the grading guidelines.

 

People started realizing that if they could flatten a book they could get a higher grade. I don't believe there was a covert pressing operation or a covert "remove the resto operation". As people started submitting books, people started to learn how the grading system worked and how to get higher grades. I think a good word to describe it would be intrepid.

 

The "system" evolved into some people trying to take advantage of the system through unethical means but that doesn't mean the entire system is corrupt. In every business model you are going to have those that know more and those that know less. You are also going to have those that don't care and those that take advantage of whatever system is offered.

 

I know there are several people that are considered the "poster children" of the "system"...I won't name their names (although Doug is named in this thread as is Ewert) but it's not like they were revealed anything special that others did not know about. They simply took the initiative to learn the system on their own, much like any entrepreneur would....or a gambler learning to play cards, and game it. Not a very nice thing to do, trying to micro trim books and I disagree with someone trying to slip a trimmed book past CGC but I find it a leap of logic to infer or support the notion that there were individuals who were "privy" to the inner workings of the "system" and gamed everyone else when in fact I think every single person had the same opportunities to learn the same system.

 

It's all a very organic, naturally evolving cycle that will occur in any "system".

 

It wasn't like there was a small, select group of people who were shared "special information". CGC started slabbing books and people slowly learned, got wind of and understood the system over time.

 

Describing at a system as though there is a great Oz behind the curtains pulling strings doesn't really represent the concept properly at all in my opinion and that is why I said what I did.

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding but that was my perception of what Dav was (and seems to always) be saying.

[ComicConnoisseur]

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

 

The 'system' was known to only a select few for many, many years. The secrets were keenly protected, the buyers (the 'marks', if you will) deliberately left out of the loop.

 

Please explain how this was 'positive' for the majority of us?

 

I'll wait.

 

The system began with Robert Overstreet and Steve Geppi.

They are the godfathers.

What is happening now is more and more peasants are not drinking the kool-aid, and are angry about how they were manipulated all these years from pressing to shilling of non-EBay auctions.

The wheels are in motion for a revolution.

Personally I see that comic book collecting high prices are right at the top of the bubble, and this bubble will burst over the next 12- 18 months.

That`s why Schmell is cashing out because the high prices he is going to get for these comics will be far lower two years from now.

In a few years people will reject and laugh at some of the absurd prices Schmell will get for comic books just like they laugh NOW at what Geppi sold his Bark and EC Comics for a decade ago.

[comicwiz]

I mostly agree with Roy. As much as I dislike the gamification of grading, the only "punitive tax" on unethical activity that attempts to squeeze the most profit at any cost angle is mostly evidenced through reputational baggage. And when events like this occur, you quickly see how little an effect even the most tainted reputations have on collectors seeking out their next fix.

 

As conspiratorial as this may sound, the one thing I will mention in relation to what Dav and FT are saying is that there were hints of an inner circle of folks that were profiting from being at the game early. This would be the equivalent of insider information in stock trading. In a "mainstream" context, you would have regulation in the form of "punitive tax" to stablize this activity from spinning out of control, but in this hobby, all it did was inspire renegade activity that kept pushing ethics and "standards" to the edge, and a blurring of boundaries when everyone else jumped on board the second they realized it was a lawless, runaway and enterprising gravy train.

[BEAUMONTS]

You just seem to constantly try to "expose" some kind of "behind the scenes" master plan when you call it a "system" in the context of your posts. You're always seem to be talking about it from a negative point of view which leads me to believe that you think the system is negative.

 

The 'system' was known to only a select few for many, many years. The secrets were keenly protected, the buyers (the 'marks', if you will) deliberately left out of the loop.

 

Please explain how this was 'positive' for the majority of us?

 

I'll wait.

 

The system began with Robert Overstreet and Steve Geppi.

They are the godfathers.

What is happening now is more and more peasants are not drinking the kool-aid, and are angry about how they were manipulated all these years from pressing to shilling of non-EBay auctions.

The wheels are in motion for a revolution.

Personally I see that comic book collecting high prices are right at the top of the bubble, and this bubble will burst over the next 12- 18 months.

That`s why Scmell is cashing out because the high prices he is going to get for these comics will be far lower two years from now.

In a few years people will reject and laugh at some of the absurd prices Scmell will get for comic books just like they laugh NOW at what Geppi sold his Bark and EC Comics for a decade ago.

 

I agree completely with the "bubbly" market theory. I think this will probably be the pinnacle for prices for "silver". When your a comic geek and non-geeks are commonly expounding the investment potential of comics you know the "comic" investment hype is taking effect to a large demographic. And this in turn will bring in none educated investment capital much like tech stocks.

I think I would rather have the cash, then have a bunch of "uber grade" label's encased in plastic and if your a "true" comic geek, you can sure put a nice mid grade raw run for enjoyment with the proceeds

 

[blazingbob]

As I have stated years before, the 'model" for what is happening in the Comic book market has already been done in the Coin and baseball Card markets. It was NO SECRET shared with a few. If you evaluated the players who were in the game you knew what would be tried and what could happen.

 

There are Card "Doctors' just like there are Comic "Doctors" as people may like to refer to them.

 

As with anything just because there are rules doesn't mean people don't try and break them when money is involved.

 

BTW, there was no "meeting" of the dealers with CGC. I had a individual meeting with Steve where I graded some books. Before CGC came online a couple of dealers would go out to dinner with Steve while at a comic convention to discuss why we should CGC grade comics.

 

Do not think that as a seller of the CGC product that I sit idly by and condone what is being done in the market I'm trying to sell to.