Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[DrWatson]

I actually thought it was a Journey into Mystery but maybe someone else has a better memory than me.

It was a Journey into Mystery.

[ciorac]

And just to be fair and allow some perspective, I started back with CGC in 2003/2004 so the only pre 2004 books that I saw were books that I purchased in the past 8 years or so...I was not around for the first 3 years of CGC so my perspective will be different than yours.

 

Also, it does seem to be worth repeating that overgraded books make the headlines much more often than undergraded books.

 

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Just my to add.

 

 

You CGC noobs crack me up (said by a 1st time CGC submitter from 1999 ) You can actually read my write-up way back in a CBG letter from the same year. I would say my experience with CGC from then was pretty mixed, but I would expect all the books I sent in to come back higher today, probably between 1 and 2 grade levels higher except maybe the Batman 81. (I submitted Batman 25, 33, 49, and 81).

 

Did you resubmit the same books each year since they opened their doors? That would at least put some data points along the timeline to judge the theory of grading fluctuations.

 

No, but I have been thinking about re-subbing the 25, 33, and 49 on a straight re-sub.

 

(thumbs u

[burntboy]

You know, I'm starting to think, when it comes to HG SA, that the pressing debate is less about the ethics of pressing and more about the realization that these books are not uncommon. Nosebleed HG was the separator, for a long time. "These are the rare books, right here," blah blah. But if you can press out a defect then the price multiples become questionable all over again.

 

So can we just admit collecting GA is better?

 

absolutely, if you're over 65 years of age and don't care about story quality, amateurish art and having holes in your collection that you can drive a truck through.

 

Ouch...

 

But much truth here, as well...

[ciorac]

You know, I'm starting to think, when it comes to HG SA, that the pressing debate is less about the ethics of pressing and more about the realization that these books are not uncommon. Nosebleed HG was the separator, for a long time. "These are the rare books, right here," blah blah. But if you can press out a defect then the price multiples become questionable all over again.

 

So can we just admit collecting GA is better?

 

absolutely, if you're over 65 years of age and don't care about story quality, amateurish art and having holes in your collection that you can drive a truck through.

 

Ouch...

 

But much truth here, as well...

 

Actually I see very little truth in what was written there. The age quoted is preposterous, story quality is in the realm of opinion and tastes, amateurish art is also a matter of opinion and taste and clearly extends through the silver age and all the way up to this weeks' comics.

 

Sure SA and later is easier to put runs together, but GA runs are not impossible to put together. Lord knows I've completed many of them over the years

[paperheart]

You know, I'm starting to think, when it comes to HG SA, that the pressing debate is less about the ethics of pressing and more about the realization that these books are not uncommon. Nosebleed HG was the separator, for a long time. "These are the rare books, right here," blah blah. But if you can press out a defect then the price multiples become questionable all over again.

 

So can we just admit collecting GA is better?

 

absolutely, if you're over 65 years of age and don't care about story quality, amateurish art and having holes in your collection that you can drive a truck through.

 

Ouch...

 

But much truth here, as well...

 

Actually I see very little truth in what was written there. The age quoted is preposterous, story quality is in the realm of opinion and tastes, amateurish art is also a matter of opinion and taste and clearly extends through the silver age and all the way up to this weeks' comics.

 

Sure SA and later is easier to put runs together, but GA runs are not impossible to put together. Lord knows I've completed many of them over the years

 

i obviously should've thrown up the

[Flaming_Telepath]

What you don't see is a 20 page discussion making the headlines about how undergraded a book is (for all of the above reasons) while you will see is a 20+ page discussion on how overgraded a book is.

 

When I actually see one, I'll start a thread.

[VintageComics]

What you don't see is a 20 page discussion making the headlines about how undergraded a book is (for all of the above reasons) while you will see is a 20+ page discussion on how overgraded a book is.

 

When I actually see one, I'll start a thread.

 

 

Touche!

[LordRahl]

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

Maybe so, but high-end collectors in the 90s never had to contend with 9.8 multiples.

 

CGC had nothing to do with creating 9.8 multiples. All they do is grade books. They do not set market prices. I see this "argument" all the time as if CGC is somehow to fault for the crazy prices being paid in today's market. We, the buying public, set the market. The angst over that is being mis-directed towards CGC by some for reasons I can't figure out.

[tth2]

What you don't see is a 20 page discussion making the headlines about how undergraded a book is (for all of the above reasons) while you will see is a 20+ page discussion on how overgraded a book is.

 

When I actually see one, I'll start a thread.

I've seen numerous old label books that seemed undergraded, but as many people here have rightfully pointed out, what appears to be undergraded in the slab might turn out to be the appropriate grade when examined out of the slab, as defects that weren't apparent through the slab become very apparent outside of the slab.

 

As for those who think that a book's structural grade will IMPROVE upon being taken out of the slab, that's just ludicrous. It doesn't work that way. Being taken out of a mylar/slab only reveals more defects, not less (i.e., mylars and slabs don't make defects look worse than they really are, they mask them). Yes, books will often be glossier and fresher out of the slab than in, which is great for folks who value that, but with respect to CGC grades, the reality is that CGC doesn't really bump up books for eye appeal.

 

In over 25 years of collecting, here are some things I've NEVER said:

 

"Wow, all those spine stresses/blunted corners/ragged edges disappeared as soon as I pulled the book out of the mylar."

 

"Ah yes, what looked like NCBs through the mylar were nothing, it turns out the book is absolutely smooth and unblemished."

[tth2]

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

Maybe so, but high-end collectors in the 90s never had to contend with 9.8 multiples.

 

CGC had nothing to do with creating 9.8 multiples. All they do is grade books. They do not set market prices. I see this "argument" all the time as if CGC is somehow to fault for the crazy prices being paid in today's market. We, the buying public, set the market. The angst over that is being mis-directed towards CGC by some for reasons I can't figure out.

The point is that CGC led people to believe that comics could be consistently differentiated from each other on such an ultra-fine basis, and thus caused people to be willing to pay higher prices for that perceived certainty.

 

Old school collectors will remember when dealers would say a book was NM+++ as opposed to just NM++ or NM/M, but they would take those differentiations with a huge grain of salt and no one would be foolish enough to pay a huge mark-up for the additional "+". But they will for CGC's perceived ability to distinguish a "0.2" or "0.1", and I think what people here are saying is that that perception is illusory.

[LordRahl]

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

Maybe so, but high-end collectors in the 90s never had to contend with 9.8 multiples.

 

CGC had nothing to do with creating 9.8 multiples. All they do is grade books. They do not set market prices. I see this "argument" all the time as if CGC is somehow to fault for the crazy prices being paid in today's market. We, the buying public, set the market. The angst over that is being mis-directed towards CGC by some for reasons I can't figure out.

The point is that CGC led people to believe that comics could be consistently differentiated from each other on such an ultra-fine basis, and thus caused people to be willing to pay higher prices for that perceived certainty.

 

Old school collectors will remember when dealers would say a book was NM+++ as opposed to just NM++ or NM/M, but they would take those differentiations with a huge grain of salt and no one would be foolish enough to pay a huge mark-up for the additional "+". But they will for CGC's perceived ability to distinguish a "0.2" or "0.1", and I think what people here are saying is that that perception is illusory.

 

I get that Tim, but again CGC didn't lead people to anything. They graded the books set in front of them. Graded them with the same grading scale that was in place before CGC came around at that. They didn't even establish a "CGC grade". NM, NM+ and NM/M were grades established before there was a CGC. People were differentiating on a .2 scale before CGC and charging more. The only difference is that now it is a third party doing it so it is an impartial grade (allegedly). We still set the market for what we are willing to pay.

[Silver Surfer]

Le's not try and over think this, its simple, looser grading is very good for business in these "pressing" times as it makes everyone look at there slabs and ponder whether their 9.2 could potentially be a 9.4, etc, etc.

[arexcrooke]

My question is this:

How can one have a vaulted collection?

Is it an A-Frame? Farm House?

:shrug:

[Silver Surfer]

Think big city, hick.

[sacentaur]

Fewer notations on labels and charging for graders' notes = less information.

 

Less information = more myths (on several different levels).

 

More myths are not as good as more information.

[blazingbob]

But isn't the best story the ones in the well?

 

Sometimes not, the better story is the myth behind how the book got in the well.

[COI]

The point is that CGC led people to believe that comics could be consistently differentiated from each other on such an ultra-fine basis, and thus caused people to be willing to pay higher prices for that perceived certainty.

 

Is that really why people pay higher multiples? Or is it the big number in the top left corner of the case that allows collectors to measure their collecting manhood and rack up registry points?

 

All of this info has been out there for years, and it appears that the majority of high grade collectors are content to keep paying those multiples despite the fact that the consistent differentiation on an "ultra-fine basis" has been shown to be illusory.

[lou_fine]

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

High-end collectors in the 90's never really had to worry about pressing because there was no real money to be made from stand-alone pressing. Pressing in those days were normally done as only the finishing touch after other restoration procedures had already been done to a book. (thumbs u

 

It was CGC's undisclosed change to the grading standards within the hobby at the time that made pressing such a big windfall for the people in the know and turned the practice into a cottage industry and now a virtual requirement before submitting a book into CGC for grading.

[shrunkenhead]

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

High-end collectors in the 90's never really had to worry about pressing because there was no real money to be made from stand-alone pressing. Pressing in those days were normally done as only the finishing touch after other restoration procedures had already been done to a book. (thumbs u

 

It was CGC's undisclosed change to the grading standards within the hobby at the time that made pressing such a big windfall for the people in the know and turned the practice into a cottage industry and now a virtual requirement before submitting a book into CGC for grading.

 

And there you have it.

[blazingbob]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.