So who was Ra's Al Ghul?

[seanfingh]

 

Ra's is a great villain. One of DCs 5 best, I think.

[Maccai3]

Ra's is a great villain. One of DCs 5 best, I think.

 

that'd be a good thread, Top 5 Villians Marvel - DC, then who would win

[TupennyConan]

Liam Neeson was always Ra's Al Ghul. Ducard was just a facade to hide the fact that he was in fact the one and true Ra's Al Ghul, while Ken Watanabe was merely a stand in.

 

I got this on first viewing because it was the plot of the entire movie.

[Mephisto]

Liam Neeson was always Ra's Al Ghul. Ducard was just a facade to hide the fact that he was in fact the one and true Ra's Al Ghul, while Ken Watanabe was merely a stand in.

 

I got this on first viewing because it was the plot of the entire movie.

 

I remember being very tired when I saw it at school. I have a feeling I had been drinking a lot the night before. That was a good year for partying. I showed up to a Sunday morning soft ball game still drunk. My friend told me I looked like Tom Hanks in a League of Their Own and his girl friend told me she thought I was going to get sick in the outfield. The ground was still spinning when I stepped in the batters box so I hit lefty for the extra steps down the line. Good times.

[fantastic_four]

"Surely, a man who spends his nights scrambling over the rooftops of Gotham wouldn't begrudge me dual identities?"

 

It helps to look at the entire exchange between the two from the screenplay:

 

Bruce Wayne: You're not Ra's al Ghul. I watched him die.

Henri Ducard: [from behind Bruce Wayne] But is Ra's al Ghul immortal?

[bruce turns around to face Ducard]

Henri Ducard: Are his methods supernatural?

Bruce Wayne: [to Ducard] Or cheap parlor tricks to conceal your true identity, "Ra's"?

Henri Ducard: Surely, a man who spends his nights scrambling over the rooftops of Gotham wouldn't begrudge me dual identities?

 

There are two ways to take this:

• As people are suggesting in this thread, Neeson was Ra's the entire time and Watanabe was a stand-in.
• Ra's is more of a title of whoever is leading the League of Shadows than a name of a unique individual. Watanabe was Ra's at the beginning, but when he died, Ducard assumed the title/role. This is supported by his question "But is Ra's al Ghul immortal?", implying that the role itself will never die.

I don't know which is meant to be the case, but I lean towards the second as it seems more consistent with Neeson describing the fact that the League of Shadows had been around for thousands of years. I haven't read any of the comics with him to know what DC's design was or whether Nolan adhered to or diverged from that character design. If the comic version of Ra's was supernatural in some way--let's say literally immortal, I don't know because I haven't researched the comic version of Ra's--I doubt Nolan intended his version to be superhuman and more likely intended Ra's to be a title for the head of the League of Shadows.

[fantastic_four]

I haven't read any of the comics with him to know what DC's design was or whether Nolan adhered to or diverged from that character design. If the comic version of Ra's was supernatural in some way--let's say literally immortal, I don't know because I haven't researched the comic version of Ra's--I doubt Nolan intended his version to be superhuman and more likely intended Ra's to be a title for the head of the League of Shadows.

 

I just looked at the Wikipedia entry for Ra's--apparently the comic version is indeed immortal. I highly doubt that Nolan wanted to portray him as truly supernatural because that goes against his clear intent for his Batman movies to be grounded in reality, yet he didn't clearly rule out his being immortal, either, so perhaps he intentionally left it vague for you to decide for yourself which version of Ra's you like--the immortal individual or the idea of Ra's as the title of the current leader of the League of Shadows.

[Larryw7]

There are a lot of people who worked on BATMAN BEGINS who say that Watanabe was meant to be Ubu, and was used as a decoy for Ras.

 

 

As far as I know, the Ras scenes in TDKR are flashbacks, and involve both Bane's and Talia's backstories.

 

[mt1000]

WOW never knew that either. I mean I always thought Neisen was Ra's but ya the chinease guy threw me off.

[Mephisto]

I just went on IMDB because this stuff is usually addressed somewhere there. Most of this is covered with spoiler text under the FAQ section. The question being who is the real Ra's Al Ghul.

 

Ken Watanabe is credited with playing Râ's al Ghûl.

 

However, Liam Neeson's character, Henri Ducard, is later revealed to be the real Râ's. Some have speculated that because Râ's al Ghûl is Arabic for "The Demon's Head," this was simply a title transferred to Liam Neeson's character after the death of Ken Watanabe's character. But the -script makes it quite clear that Neeson was Ra's all along. During the reveal it states, "Ducard (THE REAL RA'S AL GHUL) smiles acknowledgment." Therefore, Watanabe played a decoy, while Neeson played the real Râ's al Ghûl. The credits read as they do so as not to spoil the surprise.

[goldust40]

There are a lot of people who worked on BATMAN BEGINS who say that Watanabe was meant to be Ubu, and was used as a decoy for Ras.

 

Yep, this was what I assumed when I saw BB. IMDB made an error....

[Anfield Fox]

No offence but how can any comic fan not know Neeson was Ra's in the movie (before the "twist")? He looked exactly like Ra's with the same facial hair. Ra's was never Asian. That "twist" was probably great for the general audiance have had no clue but to anyone who's ever read comics they should have figured it out right at the start.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if many people don't know much about Ra's unless they are really into Batman. I don't think I really read any stories with him until after this movie. most of the stories I had read were things like Long Halloween with the Joker and Two-Face bad guys.

 

You're probably right but from my POV i never read any Ra's books before seeing BB and knew instantly who he was in the first scene. Then they introduced Watanabe as Ra's and i was confused because i knew Ra's didn't look like that at all. Of course it all made sense later on when they explained it,

 

I remember it really well because right after i registered on these boards, the movie bought me back into comics in a big way after a few years out.

[Mephisto]

There are a lot of people who worked on BATMAN BEGINS who say that Watanabe was meant to be Ubu, and was used as a decoy for Ras.

 

Yep, this was what I assumed when I saw BB. IMDB made an error....

 

IMDB probably just went off the credits from the film itself.

[fantastic_four]

But the -script makes it quite clear that Neeson was Ra's all along. During the reveal it states, "Ducard (THE REAL RA'S AL GHUL) smiles acknowledgment." Therefore, Watanabe played a decoy, while Neeson played the real Râ's al Ghûl. The credits read as they do so as not to spoil the surprise.

 

The screenplay doesn't make it entirely as clear as you're describing. Remember that in that scene, a third guy is identified as Ra's Al Ghul--one of Neeson's bodyguards claims to be Ra's, and Bale tells him "You're not Ra's, I watched him die." The screenplay could be referring to "the real Ra's" as Neeson as opposed to one of his bodyguards--that doesn't necessarily exclude Watanabe as having been Ra's earlier in the film.

[fantastic_four]

Question for you guys who are familiar with Ra's from the comics. Wikipedia says he's immortal--does that mean he simply doesn't age, or does it also mean that he can't be physically be killed?

[Mephisto]

Question for you guys who are familiar with Ra's from the comics. Wikipedia says he's immortal--does that mean he simply doesn't age, or does it also mean that he can't be physically be killed?

 

He dies but they dump his into the Lazarus Pit. I believe the Pit keeps him youthful as well.

[fantastic_four]

Question for you guys who are familiar with Ra's from the comics. Wikipedia says he's immortal--does that mean he simply doesn't age, or does it also mean that he can't be physically be killed?

 

He dies but they dump his into the Lazarus Pit. I believe the Pit keeps him youthful as well.

 

Just youthful, or it prevents him from being killed at all?

[Anfield Fox]

Question for you guys who are familiar with Ra's from the comics. Wikipedia says he's immortal--does that mean he simply doesn't age, or does it also mean that he can't be physically be killed?

 

This is informative

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Pit

 

I want one IRL

[Zonker]

Question for you guys who are familiar with Ra's from the comics. Wikipedia says he's immortal--does that mean he simply doesn't age, or does it also mean that he can't be physically be killed?

 

He dies but they dump his into the Lazarus Pit. I believe the Pit keeps him youthful as well.

 

Just youthful, or it prevents him from being killed at all?

 

He gets killed.

His dead body takes a dip in the Lazarus Pit.

He gets better.

[bane]

I always felt the Lazarus pit was a bit of a stretch for the "real world" universe Nolan was putting Batman into.

[fantastic_four]

Question for you guys who are familiar with Ra's from the comics. Wikipedia says he's immortal--does that mean he simply doesn't age, or does it also mean that he can't be physically be killed?

 

He dies but they dump his into the Lazarus Pit. I believe the Pit keeps him youthful as well.

 

Just youthful, or it prevents him from being killed at all?

 

He gets killed.

His dead body takes a dip in the Lazarus Pit.

He gets better.

 

It sounds like he can be killed by physical means, but if he can't, then if Nolan had anything supernatural in mind with his version of Ra's--which I don't think he did--then it's possible his short appearance in Rises takes place in the present and he didn't die at the end of Batman Begins. Having said that, I'd be shocked if Neeson's appearance in Rises is anything other than a flashback or that Nolan intended for his Ra's to be immortal. I also still haven't seen clear evidence that Watanabe wasn't Ra's, so I still assume Nolan's goal was to leave you guessing as to whether or not Watanabe was a decoy or not.