9.2 versus 9.6 Ethics versus Reality.

[THE_BEYONDER]

dealers can advertise their books any way they choose -- nobody is forcing you to buy them. If you, as the buyer, take on the risk, then you are stuck with the book.

 

 

Really? I didn't know that comic book dealers were exempt from false advertising laws.

[rjpb]

I see the problem as being those grades of 9.2 to 9.8 where there is such small difference, anyone can be wrong.

 

 

...including CGC. If you want to place blame for a $300 loss of value on a $450 purchase based on a raw 9.6 coming back a CGC 9.2, blame a market that values the label above the book. Before CGC came along I don't imagine the most reputable dealer could have gotten 3 - 4X as much for a modern 9.6 than he could for a 9.2, now it is expected with slabbed books - even if the books are actually indentical in terms of defects.

[Foolkiller]

assuming it's false advertising in the first place.

[THE_BEYONDER]

assuming it's false advertising in the first place.

 

Fair enough. What if the seller had "CGC 9.6" on the sticker?

[RS]

 

 

Knowledge is Power.

 

Before you buy anything you must know what you are looking at.

[jbud73]

9.6 by who's standard?

 

That's the problem... you're stating that if the book doesn't come back CGC 9.6, the kid got ripped off.

 

I can't agree. A CGC grade is one grading standard and they don't have an absolute right to use the 10 pt. scale. If the dealer graded the book within his understanding of the grading guide, then that's what it is. Grading is part art, part science... it isn't completely absolute.

 

I'm curious as to what other lawyers would think about this playing out in court, but my take is that because of the subjective nature of grading, any dealer could say his opinion was a 9.6 with a completely straight face. How many dealers are doing currently? It's a commonly accepted practice in the hobby. There's all sorts of grading disputes -- and since grading calls into question a level of subjectivity, there isn't ONE standard. What if you don't use Overstreet standards but use (for example) some other guide's grading standard?

 

I understand, the numbers belie a certain CGC grade, and that's the perception... but dealers can advertise their books any way they choose -- nobody is forcing you to buy them. If you, as the buyer, take on the risk, then you are stuck with the book.

 

As much as I this story really really burns me up I couldn't agree with Foolkiller more. GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE AND BY ITS VERY DEFINITION, OR CONSISTENT LACK THEREOF Look here's the unfortunate part, the dealer put a sticker price on the book consistent with a market for a slabbed 9.6. The book was still raw. Whether we agree with CGC grades or the multiples being paid for them - they have added a value to HG booksof 9.4 or better. The kid unfortunately did not think this purchase through as he was paying the value added price BEFORE the value was added.

 

I don't think the dealer is liable here - what this does say is that his books are overgraded according to CGC, or actually that this one book was graded according to CGC - unfortunately for the KID high grade market is largely dictated by CGC right now.

 

But to the Beyonders Point - if the book said CGC 9.6 or graded to CGC standards, as I have seen some books on Ebay - THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM AND THE BUYER IMO IN LIABLE

[rjpb]

Fair enough. What if the seller had "CGC 9.6" on the sticker?

 

That would be false advertising.

[FFB]

The problem it seems is that we all tend to think because the kid is 15 that the rules of engagement should be any different. I believe the rules should be no different for a 15 year and and apply to a 37 or 50 year old as well. I dont believe it matters if the 15 year old is innocent of grading standards or the 37 year old is better equipped in lifes experiences to know grading levels. I feel exactly this way:

If a dealer advertizes a book as a 9.6. It better be a 9.6. Nothing subjective about it. Its only subjective to the dealer who is selling it, not to the buyer who expects that grade. To the buyer, its absolute. A buyer is not expected to have to know grading at all. As a consumer, if the seller is selling it as such, thats what it should be. If the buyer can grade and know the difference all the better, but, NOT a requirement so far as being a consumer is concerned. I would love to see a dealer say in court to the judge that his grading of 9.6 is subjective at $ 460.00 when after certification it came back as a 9.2 at $ 130.00. We are past the point of subjectivity here and into cold reality. A loss of $ 330 on the part of the buyer. I feel wether or not the dealer knew the correct grade or not is not part of the obligation. Wether the buyer is 15, 37, or 50 is also not part of wether person should get a refund. I believe its simply, if you advertize it as such, you better know what your doing, cause it better be what you say it is in grade, otherwise, dont advertize it as such.

I have seen 4 instances of the above in the past two months. It doesnt take long to lose people from the comic market after these instances. All four times when these different people went back to 4 different dealers, the answer was always the same. "You see, the grading is subjective". But, no refund was offered?!?!?!?

To the seller, its subjective, to the buyer, its absolute.

I see the problem as being those grades of 9.2 to 9.8 where there is such small difference, anyone can be wrong. Then why advertize it as raw 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8. Ive had over 400 books sent in for certification. Ive compared them myself in those categories. Ill be cursed but the differences are so small between those grades that anyone can be wrong. So why advertize it with a sticker on a raw book?

 

I see it differently. Buying on ebay is one thing because you can't hold the book in your hands and you are relying on the seller's grade before buying the book. If I bought a book on ebay based on a scan of a book that looked like a 9.6 (because I couldn't see small defects in the scan) and was described by the seller as a 9.6, if the book shows up as a 9.2 with non-color-breaking spine stress and small tears on the edges, I agree that the buyer should be able to send the book back to the dealer and the dealer should refund the money. But even on ebay, unless the seller states that he is guaranteeing a grade by CGC, the buyer has to make his own mind up within whatever the refund period is whether the book supports the stated grade or not.

 

Buying books in person is a different story though. When you are buying a book in person and you pay a certain dollar amount for a book you are holding in your hands and can view it for yourself. Before pulling the trigger, you look at the book and (hopefully) make a decision about whether the book is nice enough for you to pay the requested price for it. It is your money and thus YOUR responsibility to make sure that the book in its RAW form in your hands is worth what YOU are willing to pay for it. It is not the DEALER'S obligation to make sure that you are satisfied with the grade he gives it. If you don't like his grade, you walk away from the deal.

 

The fact that CGC did not give the book a 9.6 could mean any number of things. Maybe the kid took it out and read it before submitting it and put a stress line in the book or banged a corner before sending it in. Maybe the book WAS a 9.6 before the kid bought it. Or maybe the book still is a 9.6 and CGC undergraded it. Why should the dealer pay for this?

 

I was an avid comic collector when I was 15 years old. I was a pretty damn good grader by age 15 (my sophomore year of high school) too. When I bought expensive (for a 15-year-old) books in high school, I made sure that I had inspected the books and that the books were nice enough to justify the amount I was paying. I refuse to believe that any 15 year old today who collects comics and has almost $500 to spend on a single book is so dumb or naive that he can't make his own decisions about whether the book is nice enough for the price. And if the book was nice enough in the store that he felt justified in paying all that money for the book, the fact that CGC didn't get a 9.6 book when the kid sent it in, or didn't assign a 9.6 to the book even if it was in that condition, isn't the dealer's fault.

 

If we were talking about undisclosed restoration, that is another thing entirely. In that case, I am firmly on the buyer's side.

 

As it is, I am a bit incredulous that a dealer thought he could get almost five hundy for a raw X-Men 101 in ANY grade, but the book belongs to him until he sells it and he can demand whatever price he wants for it. His obligation to the buyer who is present in the store and can inspect the book himself before buying is nothing more than (a) to decide on an asking price on the book, (b) to allow the buyer to inspect it before purchase, and © to disclose any hidden defects or restoration.

 

If the dealer also happens to denote a grade for it, fine, but the kid has the book in his own hands and must decide for himself whether the book is nice enough to support the grade or not. The comic dealer is not an insurance company. He is not in the business of refunding money simply because a professional grading service differed with his grading opinion by .4. .4 for God's sake!!!!!! Come on. CGC's own graders often differ in their opinions on the same book by that margin or greater. I have seen CGC 9.6s that looked like 8.5s (witness Jay P's ASM#1 CGC 9.6 with an abraded corner and a color breaking corner crease!!!!). CGC is an opinion, not the final word on grading. And if the 15 year old was paying almost $500 for a raw book, maybe he should have educated himself a little more before dropping that much money, rather than relying on a dealer to absolve him of the fact that the kid's grading acumen is not equal to the size of his wallet.

 

If the dealer agrees to refund part of the kid's money, that would be a nice thing to do, but ONLY if the book is still in the same condition in the slab as it was when it left the store. And if it is in the same condition and the dealer doesn't refund any of the money, I still don't assign any blame to him. He is under no legal or moral obligation, in my opinion, to do so.

[FFB]

9.6 by who's standard?

 

That's the problem... you're stating that if the book doesn't come back CGC 9.6, the kid got ripped off.

 

I can't agree. A CGC grade is one grading standard and they don't have an absolute right to use the 10 pt. scale. If the dealer graded the book within his understanding of the grading guide, then that's what it is. Grading is part art, part science... it isn't completely absolute.

 

I'm curious as to what other lawyers would think about this playing out in court, but my take is that because of the subjective nature of grading, any dealer could say his opinion was a 9.6 with a completely straight face. How many dealers are doing currently? It's a commonly accepted practice in the hobby. There's all sorts of grading disputes -- and since grading calls into question a level of subjectivity, there isn't ONE standard. What if you don't use Overstreet standards but use (for example) some other guide's grading standard?

 

I understand, the numbers belie a certain CGC grade, and that's the perception... but dealers can advertise their books any way they choose -- nobody is forcing you to buy them. If you, as the buyer, take on the risk, then you are stuck with the book.

 

This lawyer agrees with you 100% Brian.

[FFB]

9.6 by who's standard?

 

That's the problem... you're stating that if the book doesn't come back CGC 9.6, the kid got ripped off.

 

I can't agree. A CGC grade is one grading standard and they don't have an absolute right to use the 10 pt. scale. If the dealer graded the book within his understanding of the grading guide, then that's what it is. Grading is part art, part science... it isn't completely absolute.

 

I'm curious as to what other lawyers would think about this playing out in court, but my take is that because of the subjective nature of grading, any dealer could say his opinion was a 9.6 with a completely straight face. How many dealers are doing currently? It's a commonly accepted practice in the hobby. There's all sorts of grading disputes -- and since grading calls into question a level of subjectivity, there isn't ONE standard. What if you don't use Overstreet standards but use (for example) some other guide's grading standard?

 

I understand, the numbers belie a certain CGC grade, and that's the perception... but dealers can advertise their books any way they choose -- nobody is forcing you to buy them. If you, as the buyer, take on the risk, then you are stuck with the book.

 

Actually, I just had a thought. As a 15 year old, depending on what state the person is in, the 15 year old may be able to void the contract of sale, return the book, and get his money back because he is a minor. State laws vary widely on this, but it is a possibility.

 

But I still don't think the dealer did anything morally wrong. He was asking a lot of money for the book, but that's his right.

[Foolkiller]

that's an interesting point FFB... I don't know if you did this (my brother tried this, and my mom found out what he was up to, and forced him to honor the club contract)... but I remember back in high school kids signing up for Columbia House, getting their free CDs, then voiding their purchase contract under the guise they were minors and forged their parents' signatures (I think legal caught up, and they changed the terms of the contract).

 

However, I wonder what would happen if that were challenged by the seller. I mean, then technically, wouldn't the result be that the merchant would never sell to any minor unless a parent were present for fear that any such purchase might later be nullified on the basis they were minors?

 

As we both agree, the seller can price however he wants... he's killing a future customer, so in the long run, I bet you'd also agree it might be in his interest to work out a deal with the kid.

[FFB]

that's an interesting point FFB... I don't know if you did this (my brother tried this, and my mom found out what he was up to, and forced him to honor the club contract)... but I remember back in high school kids signing up for Columbia House, getting their free CDs, then voiding their purchase contract under the guise they were minors and forged their parents' signatures (I think legal caught up, and they changed the terms of the contract).

 

However, I wonder what would happen if that were challenged by the seller. I mean, then technically, wouldn't the result be that the merchant would never sell to any minor unless a parent were present for fear that any such purchase might later be nullified on the basis they were minors?

 

As we both agree, the seller can price however he wants... he's killing a future customer, so in the long run, I bet you'd also agree it might be in his interest to work out a deal with the kid.

 

On all points you raise, I say "Yep."

 

My step brother did the same thing with Columbia House, by the way. And he got away with it.

 

Effing kids.

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

I agree.

 

To put it more simply...

 

If the book came back 9.8 or higher, is the buyer obligated to compensate the seller for the added value??

 

Remember, the grade said "9.6" not "at least 9.6" or "9.6 minimum."

Some are trying to split hairs with semantics?

 

And who here had almost $500 clams to blow on comics (let alone ONE comic) when they were 15?!

And I don't wanna here any cr-ap about inflation.

While this teenager was saving his pennies, he could have/should have been protecting him$elf with a little grading research of his own.

 

Oh, and speaking of accountability/responsibility...where on God's green Earth were this kid's parents? If my son is saving up 5 'C notes' for a funny book, you can be sure I'd be his shadow all the way through the purchase .

 

Rick

[Foolkiller]

This is the point Bob always raises... nobody gives the seller more money when it comes back graded higher than advertised.

 

Listen, I understand the frustration because there's a lot of dealers who can't grade, and even those who can, who are pricing raw the same way, or close to the same as CGC books. Since we can't completely and accurately predict what CGC will give it, when you buy a comic book, you're assuming some risk that you can grade accurately and are "guessing" what CGC will give it.

 

But does it tick me off that dealers are now suddenly saying, hey, my high grade is just as good as CGC's... my book's worth the same! Which simply isn't true in most cases.

 

It's irritating to be the buyer, but it doesn't change one simple fact: nobody's telling you to buy the book.

[NoImSpartacus]

Looks like I opened up a can of worms here but that is why I opened it. To provide good discussion. Lots of opinions of course. I told the kid to return to the store and see what store owner could do. I also told the kid that I will show up there at about that time regarding my own business and would listen to what is going on and would not get involved unless the kid had trouble expressing himself with correct terminology

Thanks for all your replies. It is interesting to see a variety of opinions regarding if the dealer was at a fault or obligated to give partial or full refund or if the kid is obligated to eat the book.

[Foolkiller]

as I said Nolm, I think the kid's best pitch is: you may get to keep my $300 today, but I'll remember never to come back again. Listen I don't think the dealer should have to completely make up the difference, but he should make a significant gesture towards at least recognizing his grade was a little off.

[NoImSpartacus]

He is going back tomorrow. I will give a rundown regarding how everything ended up. Should be interesting. Depending upon what he does with the kid. I will make a determination as to if I want to show up in his store anymore. He may lose 2 customers. I believe the Ethical considerations over ride in this case.

In this case, the kid is looking at the dealer as if the dealer knows it all and is depending upon the dealers advice and grading experience. The 15 year old had no experience but wanted the X-Men 101 cause of Phoenix, I guess after seeing the 2nd X-Men movie. He must have been all primed for the book before he walked into the store. Dont know.

[THE_BEYONDER]

In this case, the kid is looking at the dealer as if the dealer knows it all and is depending upon the dealers advice and grading experience.

 

Exactly.

 

 

BTW- we're talking about you.....aren't we?

[COI]

When I was 15, I was scrounging to save up for beer, and dates. If nothing else, this teaches him not to waste his high school years over-paying for comics, or even looking at comics at all. Plenty of time to do that when he grows up.

[JohnBull]

Great question. I think the kid just paid $300 for a lesson in life that could be worth anywhere between nothing and a million dolars to him, depending on his personality.

 

Beyond that, the question is almost impossible. If the kid had made the money for the book by selling crack cocaine, would anyone change their answer?