9.2 versus 9.6 Ethics versus Reality.

[THE_BEYONDER]

This is the only thing that bothers me. Why is the dealer supposed to take care of the customer and be trusted? Why?

 

Because....otherwise....noone would trust dealers. Oh wait....noone does.

[deathlok]

This is the only thing that bothers me. Why is the dealer supposed to take care of the customer and be trusted? Why?

 

Because....otherwise....noone would trust dealers. Oh wait....noone does.

exactly.

[Aman619]

Im glad the dealer settled with the kid. He still cleared a nice profit, and made the kid feel better a bit, and (he hopes) impressed you as being a "good guy" (even though he's still a poor grader who wont get much of your business...) My take is that YOUR involvement went a long way toward this guy not blowing off the kid completely. I even think you and the kid could have gotten a bigger rebate with a new offer. But, that wasnt really the goal was it?

 

Im surprised by many of the cold hearted responses here from comics collectors, who, if if it were THEM in this kid's shoes, would (if answering honestly) be starting their own threads here bashing the dealer and seeking sympathy and methods of seeking recompense!! Right? We see lots of these threads of one of us collectors getting ripped off. But according to many of you, its this "stupid kid's" fault almost entirely for putting his trust in the figure of authority - - the store owner. I suppose if it were your son, youd just tell him "See, I hope you learned your lesson!" ??

 

Its really just more proof of the Darwinian underpinnings of society.... Like the Mel Brooks joke about the difference between comedy and tragedy: If I get a hangnail, its a tragedy. If I see an old lady fall down an open manhole, Its a comedy and Im laughing my head off!!

 

Im not trying to criticize harshly.... just asking those who would dismiss the kids problem to think how they would respond if they were in that position.

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

Im surprised by many of the cold hearted responses here from comics collectors, who, if if it were THEM in this kid's shoes, would (if answering honestly) be starting their own threads here bashing the dealer and seeking sympathy and methods of seeking recompense!! Right? We see lots of these threads of one of us collectors getting ripped off. But according to many of you, its this "stupid kid's" fault almost entirely for putting his trust in the figure of authority - - the store owner. I suppose if it were your son, youd just tell him "See, I hope you learned your lesson!" ??

 

My cold hearted response is mainly because the dealer actually went above and beyond the call of duty to reconcile a situation in which he had no such obligation. Sure, if I was in the shoes of the kid, I would be swearing up and down and be really emotional about it. However, I am fairly certain that I would be mature enough to know that the fault of the situation rests mainly on my actions. Feel sorry for a kid who $460 on a book at the age of 15? I am 22, I have a credit card, I have a job, and I have still yet to spend $460 on a single book (Let alone an ungraded book without carefully examining it).

[THE_BEYONDER]

Feel sorry for a kid who $460 on a book at the age of 15? I am 22, I have a credit card, I have a job, and I have still yet to spend $460 on a single book

 

The GREEN-EYED MONSTER once again rears its ugly head....

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

The GREEN-EYED MONSTER once again rears its ugly head....

 

It really isn't so much jealousy as a conscious choice. I save 40% of every single paycheck and choose carefully in my purchases. I have enough money saved up to purchase a couple books that I REALLY want. However, self restraint is a virtue and a boon in the comic book industry. I choose to be careful with every single dollar that goes out of my pocket. Why? It is something I learned from my parents and general life experiences. Here's an interesting (semi-off topic) statistic from a book called The Millionaire Next Door for you:

 

They noticed that over half of the 3.5 million U.S. millionaires in 1996 had household incomes less than 131,000 USD a year--even though over 7 million households reported income in excess of 100,000 USD. So, they argue that the distinguishing traits of people who become financially independent are those relating to frugality--the ability to control expenses, stick to a budget, and generally not worry about keeping up with the Joneses. Millionaires tend to save at least 15% of their income, and focus very seriously on planning on how to build their wealth--rather than on how to maintain a fancy lifestyle. The result? A high ratio of net worth--the value of all assets, after subtracting liabilities--to income.

 

Would I ever spend $460 on a raw comic book? Sure, but you know damn well that I will be spending at least 15 minutes examining that book.

[delekkerste]

Here's what I learned from this story.

 

BUY CGC BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Wait, I already do.

 

Now I have to read this whole thread again and try to find a secondary lesson.

 

Actually, I learned a different lesson: DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON COMIC BOOKS (unless you actually have money to waste). The hobby can use some young comic book readers who will eventually grow into being collectors over time. The hobby doesn't need, however, clueless kids overpaying for overgraded books, getting burned, and then telling all their friends that the hobby is full of scumbag dealers who rip you off. It also doesn't need clueless kids buying CGC 9.6 copies of X-Men #101 at X3 Movie Hype nosebleed prices and then leaving the hobby in disgust when their "can't miss investment" goes sour.

[Aman619]

I wont suggest jealousy on your part. You sound like a serious, smart young collector if not businessman with your approach.... Im just suggesting to cut a kid more than half your age younger a break! He got taken not out of greed but trust. Is it so bad to be so open and trustworthy at his age? Certainly his naivete has taken a serious beating with this episode - - but is that a victory? and for whom?

[COI]

Im surprised by many of the cold hearted responses here from comics collectors, who, if if it were THEM in this kid's shoes, would (if answering honestly) be starting their own threads here bashing the dealer and seeking sympathy and methods of seeking recompense!! Right? We see lots of these threads of one of us collectors getting ripped off.

 

The "I got ripped off, so feel sorry for me" threads get tiring, and I agree with you on that point. I've stopped buying high $$$ raw books because I've had a disproportionate amount of them come back restored. But I personally have never even mentioned the many stories on this board, with the exception of my Comic-Keys experience(and I only did that to further supply evidence of his criminal activites). I certainly haven't mentioned how many over-graded books I've recieved, and the "NM 9.4" books that came back as 8.5's from CGC. I took the shots, I lost, and I accept responsibility.

 

But according to many of you, its this "stupid kid's" fault almost entirely for putting his trust in the figure of authority - - the store owner. I suppose if it were your son, youd just tell him "See, I hope you learned your lesson!" ??

 

I wouldn't go so far as to call the kid "stupid", like others on here have. We all make these mistakes, regardless of intelligence level. Wisdom is only aquired through error and experience, and I agree that calling this kid "stupid" is way too harsh. But he did screw up, and he should accept the consequences. If it were my kid, I would say "see, I hope you learned your lesson", because I grew up in the "School of hard knocks", and I was raised that way. We all have those moments in life where our "you can always trust authority figures" bubble is burst. I'd rather my kid learn this lesson the hard way, and develop leather skin, then to go on in life trusting in people to be honest, and to "do the right thing". Otherwise, the loss of $400 will seem small compared to the dissapointments he will face later on.

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

I wont suggest jealousy on your part. You sound like a serious, smart young collector if not businessman with your approach.... Im just suggesting to cut a kid more than half your age younger a break! He got taken not out of greed but trust. Is it so bad to be so open and trustworthy at his age? Certainly his naivete has taken a serious beating with this episode - - but is that a victory? and for whom?

 

Aman, I understand what you are saying and agree that this is certainly a tragic thing that happened. However, I really know nothing about this kid except that he made a poor decision. Like I said earlier, if he is indeed a naive teenager who sought the wisdom of his elders and has had his future collecting dreams shattered, then my heart truly goes out to him. However, it seems that even NolmSpartacus knows very little of the kid except his short interaction. It is my genuine hope that he can learn enough about comics and their values to make level headed decisions in the future. It is definitely not bad to be so open and trustworthy at his age, but it is VERY bad to be so open and trustworthy with $460 at his age. All things considered, I don't think he made out so bad. At least this was not a situation that involved drugs, weapons, or sex.

 

What if the situation was:

"It's okay kid, just try it, I guarantee you will love heroin."

"It's okay, my dad isn't home, he won't even know we played with his gun."

"It's okay, we don't need to use a condom, I haven't been with anyone else."

 

If he learned to be wary and think carefully from this situation to avoid these others I have stated, then this is certainly an inexpensive victory.

[rjpb]

Millionaires tend to save at least 15% of their income, and focus very seriously on planning on how to build their wealth--rather than on how to maintain a fancy lifestyle. The result? A high ratio of net worth--the value of all assets, after subtracting liabilities--to income.

 

 

So we are supposed to put 15% of our incomes towards our collections?

Seriously while some degree of financial planning makes sense, and there is alot to be said for not incurring debt unrelated to a home mortgage, I think the personal finance industry works to scare the bejesus out of people who aren't saving a good chunk of their income. If you spend your entire working life being parsimonious with luxury expenses, and you retire with those millions in the bank, you will still be reluctant to part with money out of habit and deny yourself to the grave. I'm not advocating spending money just to keep up appearances - my car is 12 years old and I could easily afford a new one - but don't be afraid to spend money now on what brings you joy.

[Aman619]

The kid did screw up.... I agree with you. And in talking about this earlier, I threw up my hands trying to wrap myself around all the angles here. No clear cut good guy and bad guy. But It seems to have ended up okay. Spartacus was really the key to it all though. Getting involved on the kids behalf was a nice thing to do. Maybe the kidll understand the whole transaction and absorb some valuable lessons; or maybe he'll just light up a bowlful and forget all about it!

[Aman619]

However, I really know nothing about this kid except that he made a poor decision. Like I said earlier, if he is indeed a naive teenager who sought the wisdom of his elders and has had his future collecting dreams shattered, then my heart truly goes out to him. However, it seems that even NolmSpartacus knows very little of the kid except his short interaction. It is my genuine hope that he can learn enough about comics and their values to make level headed decisions in the future. It is definitely not bad to be so open and trustworthy at his age, but it is VERY bad to be so open and trustworthy with $460 at his age. All things considered, I don't think he made out so bad. At least this was not a situation that involved drugs, weapons, or sex.

 

If he learned to be wary and think carefully from this situation to avoid these others I have stated, then this is certainly an inexpensive victory.

 

well said! sums it up nicely.

[NoImSpartacus]

I just wanted to write that I found all your answers interesting and pretty coherent in thought for the most part. Lots of opinions and some interesting points and arguments to be noted on both sides. Thanks again for all of your support with your thought about the kids problem. Your thoughts helped me to figure a way to respond to the dealer should I had seen the kids problem get out of hand. They both handled themselves pretty professionally. The young kid was getting slightly upset but got himself under control when I started speaking to the dealer. The dealer acted professionally as well.

I learned a lesson watching the situation and reading all your posts.

Thanks again, Jeff

[NoImSpartacus]

From what I could see, the kid accepted the situation and his part of the responsiblilty, but I dont think he will be buying any comics any time soon.

[Aman619]

its a shame isnt it?

[DiceX]

It's great that the dealer helped the kid out.

Would he have done it if you had not been there? I doubt it.

 

But the price you keep giving on this book is way low, so stop making it sound like the kid lost anything in this.

Here's the last few sales on this book...

- $280.00 - Mar 2004

- $208.50 - May 2004

(2) $275.00 310/240 Jun 2004

 

That's an average of $259.63 for the last four sales.

He's not taking a beating on this.

 

I've had my share of bad deals when I was younger.

It teaches you to do your research and not buy blindly.

This kid learned a lesson and it didn't cost him anything.

He definately should not feel like he lost money on this book.

He has fair market value in it.

 

The point of him possibly doing some damage to it while transporting it home is very valid.

He didn't lose anything in this transaction.

You should make sure he's aware of this because he still thinks he is a victim.

He needs to know...

a) An old comic in high grade is something that can lose value if even slightly mishandled.

b) He has fair market value invested in this book.

c) If you want to play the high grade game, you need to learn how to play it.

d) If you want a book in a piece of plastic with a specific grade written on it, buy it already in the plastic with that specific grade on it.

 

However...Kudos to you for helping the kid out.

Now educate him so he can do better next time.

[BassGMan]

I didn't read this whole thread but here are my two cents.

 

First off, 15 year old, 35 or 55, I don't care. The rules SHOULD apply the same to all. If you'd give a refund to a 15 year old, then in all fairness you should give it to an "oldie". There are some pretty comic savvy 15 years olds out there and some pretty naive older guys. Who's to say that a Mr. 42 year old wasn't taken advantage of?

 

When I was 15 I had already been collecting for five years and believe me, I knew what I was doing. I had amassed quite a nice collection including many Silver Marvel #1s. I did not have a big pot of cash handed to me but I was able to save up some money from my allowance, doing chores, birthdays, Bar Mitzvah and so on. Yeah, I made some stupid purchases, and I made some really good ones too. I learned then, and I'm learning now.

 

I do not think the dealer should have been obligated to give any refund to the kid. Sure, he can if he wants to, show a little goodwill. But that might not be a good move if he gets the reputation of refunding for books that CGC grades lower than he does. He may get kid after kid after adult coming back for refunds too.

 

Sorry, I do not feel sorry for a 15 year old that knows a little (or alot) about comics. -----Sid

[sterlingcomics]

1. When does the seller become an insurance policy against CGC submissions? . Bob's comments a few threads ago echo back to me--say, do you guys pay the seller when you bought a 9.2 and it comes back a 9.6? Just playing devil's advocate here

 

2. If had worse deals than this kid, so I say he has learned a powerful lesson on the subjectivity of grading and the advantage of pricing books.

 

Anyone who wants to stay in this hobby must evaluate the grading of the seller, get your grading house in order, and pay with this subjectivity (+- 0.5) in mind.

[CompleteRunComics]

Quote:

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Now, had the collector stated the book was a 9.4, inferring CGC, and you agreed it was a sharp copy, sent it in and received back a CGC 9.0, then I believe you should be able to return it. The seller is stating they know what a CGC 9.4 is, and you the buyer, having no literature on CGC's grading standards, are buying that book as a 9.4.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Stating a book is a 9.4 refers to the grade, not what a grading service later assigns to it. As the person who created and defined the 10 point grading scale for the Overstreet guide, which was later adopted by CGC, I can say with a certain degree of authority that references to a particular number grade only refers to the condition of the book. It does not refer to the grade that a grading service will assign to it. And in the end, if the people at CGC agree, all the better.

 

Perhaps someone should market CGC insurance. For X dollars, we will insure that a book comes back at a specific grade.

 

Again, if you want to buy a CGC grade, buy a CGC book.

 

Stephen

 

Your right, I took your example out of context. For your example I had more of an average collector in mind both buying and selling. Now, since you created and defined the 10 point grading scale for OS, and congratulations to you on this accomplishment, I can imagine when you hear 9.4 you think OS Grading. Now, when 100 average collectors hear 9.4 what do you think they think of? Right again, they think CGC. So, the whole problem can be solved by identifying who's grading system, you think, as a seller your using. Maybe you can create and define a new labeling system for retailers and sellers to use. Something like "CGC 9.4 Raw", or "OS 9.4".

 

 

CRC