X-Men #94 vs. House of Secrets #92: Help me choose...

[mintcollector]

Can I ask though why you would state you would buy a WWT #1 for about $250 in 9.2 and not buy a major Marvel 'key?'

 

Wild guess, but maybe he likes the book better? It does happen. Some don't follow trends.

 

I would suspect that due to demand, WWT #1 is going to drop down to around $200 (right near Ghosts #1) due to the fact it is not a book in high demand (when compared to X-men 94 or HOS 92). It has been showing downward movement as of late (like most bronze books; to be fair).

 

Are you talking about 9.2 or 9.4 again? 9.4 copies of Ghosts #1 typically go for $300. Yep other non #1 copies are going for cheaper, relative to the market...haven't seen the impact on the #1 issues in the series yet. If you've seen otherwise, let me know. I tend to follow the genre closely, but I'll admit I've been distracted lately.

 

BTW, no 9.8 issues of Ghosts #1 graded yet either. Not that anyone gives a rat's behind because they are too busy admiring Wolverine's claws.

 

So, where's your head now mint? X-men or HOS?

 

The copy of Ghosts I was referring to was a 9.2 (same as the WWT #1). To answer your question as to where my head is at; and you had to ask...

 

http://www.worthpoint.com/blog-entry/rinker-collectibles-baby-boomer-bubble

 

Never ask where my head is at...this is dangerous-! This article, a large percentage of it; deals with the comic book collecting field.

 

That is off topic though, but I thought you guys (and any gals) may like to read it.

 

That being said, I have always been leading towards HOS 92 of course!

 

As for the comment on 'bronze' I honestly do not know whether prices will eventually recover or not. There are a lot of copies coming onto the market and this is why I always avoided top census copies. Books in 9.2-9.4 seem to be somewhat stable; in my opinion. That being said, only time will tell! I do believe that if you stick to the 'keys' and truly obscure titles that at least have some demand, you will do okay.

 

 

[mintcollector]

a) the census is not perfect but I think it is far from useless...sure with resub and people not submitting the old label, the census can be bloated...that being said, a lot of people so sub the old label so it isn't as bad as it made out to be. Care to debate the skewed data with GPA? we can go there too since it is is far from complete so lets lay it all out there if you want to debate validity of "data".

 

b) what make you think I don't own other bronze keys? didn't I say I already have both HOS 92 and X-men 94 and I am likely will loose money on them if I sell them today? I am pretty sure I wrote that in this thread.

 

c) Of course I considered demand..how else is the most common bronze war book only has 55 copies submitted (for argument sake and leave out the bloated census issue) while X-men has 9 times more? yes, lots of people don't collect WWT#1, thus low census, low demand = not so high price...not a surprise. My argument so that it is clear is the demand for X-men 94 is higher, yes, but the over abundance supplies (regardless if you believe the census or not) have depressed the prices for the last 3 years and likely won't reverse any times soon.

 

One thing to consider is many DC collectors are non slab collectors so that could be a factor in why there are so few WWT#1 or HOS 92 on census. Yes, HOS in 9.2 or above is very rare in comparison to X-men 94, yet why is it not as expensive? because the demand is much lower right? I have a few copies of HOS 92, raw and slabbed so I can say I spent enough time following that book for quite sometimes now.

 

First, you sem to think I am arguing with you about the validity of certain aspects. I am not. In fact (not to sound egotistical); I could actually care less. You do bring up several points that I should comment on.

 

The census in the comic book collcting hobby with never be even as close to accurate as most other hobbies (i.e. currency and even coins). This has been proven time and time again; and is due to not only resubs (which are cmmon in any collecting field where third party certification is involved); but also due to pressing. Yes, generally if a professional presses your books and resubs them they will supposedly send in the old label to have the census updated; but there are a lot more individuals who press books who do not do this. You also have people who buy a CGC book, crack it (throwing out the slab and the label); then years later slab it and resell it.

 

As for GPA; it was never designed to be perfect. It is a barometer of the stated dealers and auction sites that subscribe to its ideology. For instance, Comic Link is NOT a member nor ever will be. That being said, the prices reported (outside of instances of their control; i.e. shilling); ARE accurate. There can never be a better analysis without having EVERY seller of the said item particiapte in their analysis. This would be next to impossible because you would still have 'private' sales that never would be taken into account.

 

I also dispute the fact that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' In fact I have NEVER heard this before until you said it. I would LOVE to see evidence to this nature. A lot of books do pass through dealers hands. I never recall seeing any dealer who caters to non-slabbed DC without also catering to non-slabbed Marvel; and vice versa with slabbed books. I also never heard a collector state; I only slab my Marvels. A comic book is a comic book. When money is involved, most do not look at the publisher. The reason HOS 92 sells for less than say a Marvel 'key' like X-Men 94 is because of demand. If demand was higher this book would sell for much more.

 

Please provide evidence to your theory that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' This I need to see.

 

'mint'

[etanick]

ok, lets debate the fact that there is less DC slab collectors out there.

 

a) Why is there so much fewer DC across the board in the census? Greg HOlland, the guy that created that awesome census website posted a few times on the total numbers of books submitted by all the publishers as well as ages...I will try to find it but there is no doubt Marvel crushed the rest. If I can find that data, and if that data is used alone, one would think there is 10 times more Marvel collectors than DC across all ages.

 

b) lets not forget that there are less than 2 millions slabs out there. Heck at the peak, probably 2 millions books were printed on a monthly basis so slabs are a tiny part of the collectable markets, albeit growing faster than the rest..yes? Then if you add that DC war and horror are 2 more common popular titles that people collect, how then can we explain that so few of those books are slabbed? You can pick just about any titles from G.I. combat to Ghost, and literally, there are so few of them in slabs compared to Marvel. Outside of Neal Adams book, it is hard to find a ton of slabs for many DC bronze or Silver. Is that because there are so few DC collectors overall as well as those that collect slabs? For example, take Green Lantern and Hulk, I remember submitted a Green Lantern 99 and a Hulk 222 a few years back and both got 9.8 and I just checked the census, there are 20 slabs for GL for that issue and 40 for the Hulk. Does that mean that there are twice as many Hulk collectors as GL? My take is the combination of both (and I could be dead wrong), less collectors overall as well as less people that care to buy slabs.

 

Take Bat 121, one of the hardest, most sought after Silver Age Bat book and there is 91 books in the census? seriously? that book is sold regularly very fast on Ebay for $200 to $400 in low grades in raw form. The issue here is not "oh it is low grade so no need to slab that" because...if you compared it with some Marvel Keys like Hulk 181...this book in low grade will fetch less in $$ but existed in greater quantities, just 3.0 and 2.5 combined have over 100 slabs compared to the total of Bat 121. Surely, it is not a perfect comparison but you can find a different silver age Marvel key and the stats will be the same....pretty much crushing numbers whenever you compare Marvel and DC. If you have a different theory on why people care to buy or slab a Hulk 181 in the 3.0 grade, I am all ears but for now I stand by my theory that there are far many more Marvel collectors out there that care about the shiny plastic case than DC collectors.

 

 

as far as the census and GPA, I really don't see much difference in what you and I differ really. I am a math guy and to me, both have flaws and both are INCOMPLETE but if you can take GPA data and use it as a GUIDE, then surely, the census is NOT USELESS because it measures supplies (whether it is perceive correctly or not) and demands will factor that in as far as pricing...never perfect, never totally reliable because GPA and census can never measure the EMOTIONAL part of a collector..if 2 collectors really want that book, then game on.

 

X-men 94 census is surely not 100% correct, but how else do you think prices have fallen or flatlined for those books in 9.2 to 9.8? surely you cannot discount that the supply side issues with this book.

 

Take that into account on how few issues of HOS 92 existed in slabs, what is your take on why this is? less collectors overall? less demands? This book is about as widely recognize as it can be for DC horror fans out there so why so few in slabs?

 

oh god, I am starting to type wall of text to debate issues...someone shoot me please.

 

p.s. you did give your take on HOS 92 and the demand issue so I take you will buy the X-men 94 right? if buying either book is about demands and the census is useless, then 94 is a clear winner for you.

 

[etanick]

wow, that HOS 92 sure looks a nicer than 9.2

[vader2001]

If Swampie was as popular as the X-Men I think you would see more of HOS 92 in the census. Prices are going to go up and down on both of them. IMO if you get HOS 92 first be happy that you have it and don't look back at the price you paid for it.

 

I would say buy what you like and you will never go wrong. For me, make mine Marvel and for the $$ I would pay for a HOS 92 in 9+ I would rather put that money into an upgrade of a marvel comic I already own.

[jimjum12]

A 9.4 copy of HOS 92 is a very significant book......one that is actively considered by many Marvel Purists. I've always loved the cover to X 94 but don't really believe it enjoys icon status like the first Swampy. Swamp Thing is also loaded with contemporary promise.....plus, icky girls like the title. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[vader2001]

A 9.4 copy of HOS 92 is a very significant book......one that is actively considered by many Marvel Purists.

 

 

Actively considered a significant comic? I would not disagree, but it's not one I would actively pursue. Back in the 70's I pursued Kamandi issues 60 and 61 until I found out they where in Cancelled Comic Cavalcade and then I pursued that without success.

[mintcollector]

ok, lets debate the fact that there is less DC slab collectors out there.

 

a) Why is there so much fewer DC across the board in the census? Greg HOlland, the guy that created that awesome census website posted a few times on the total numbers of books submitted by all the publishers as well as ages...I will try to find it but there is no doubt Marvel crushed the rest. If I can find that data, and if that data is used alone, one would think there is 10 times more Marvel collectors than DC across all ages.

 

b) lets not forget that there are less than 2 millions slabs out there. Heck at the peak, probably 2 millions books were printed on a monthly basis so slabs are a tiny part of the collectable markets, albeit growing faster than the rest..yes? Then if you add that DC war and horror are 2 more common popular titles that people collect, how then can we explain that so few of those books are slabbed? You can pick just about any titles from G.I. combat to Ghost, and literally, there are so few of them in slabs compared to Marvel. Outside of Neal Adams book, it is hard to find a ton of slabs for many DC bronze or Silver. Is that because there are so few DC collectors overall as well as those that collect slabs? For example, take Green Lantern and Hulk, I remember submitted a Green Lantern 99 and a Hulk 222 a few years back and both got 9.8 and I just checked the census, there are 20 slabs for GL for that issue and 40 for the Hulk. Does that mean that there are twice as many Hulk collectors as GL? My take is the combination of both (and I could be dead wrong), less collectors overall as well as less people that care to buy slabs.

 

Take Bat 121, one of the hardest, most sought after Silver Age Bat book and there is 91 books in the census? seriously? that book is sold regularly very fast on Ebay for $200 to $400 in low grades in raw form. The issue here is not "oh it is low grade so no need to slab that" because...if you compared it with some Marvel Keys like Hulk 181...this book in low grade will fetch less in $$ but existed in greater quantities, just 3.0 and 2.5 combined have over 100 slabs compared to the total of Bat 121. Surely, it is not a perfect comparison but you can find a different silver age Marvel key and the stats will be the same....pretty much crushing numbers whenever you compare Marvel and DC. If you have a different theory on why people care to buy or slab a Hulk 181 in the 3.0 grade, I am all ears but for now I stand by my theory that there are far many more Marvel collectors out there that care about the shiny plastic case than DC collectors.

 

 

as far as the census and GPA, I really don't see much difference in what you and I differ really. I am a math guy and to me, both have flaws and both are INCOMPLETE but if you can take GPA data and use it as a GUIDE, then surely, the census is NOT USELESS because it measures supplies (whether it is perceive correctly or not) and demands will factor that in as far as pricing...never perfect, never totally reliable because GPA and census can never measure the EMOTIONAL part of a collector..if 2 collectors really want that book, then game on.

 

X-men 94 census is surely not 100% correct, but how else do you think prices have fallen or flatlined for those books in 9.2 to 9.8? surely you cannot discount that the supply side issues with this book.

 

Take that into account on how few issues of HOS 92 existed in slabs, what is your take on why this is? less collectors overall? less demands? This book is about as widely recognize as it can be for DC horror fans out there so why so few in slabs?

 

oh god, I am starting to type wall of text to debate issues...someone shoot me please.

 

p.s. you did give your take on HOS 92 and the demand issue so I take you will buy the X-men 94 right? if buying either book is about demands and the census is useless, then 94 is a clear winner for you.

 

It's okay, I received your PM. I was going to respond, but then read your clarification...

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

[Tony S]

a)

I also dispute the fact that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' In fact I have NEVER heard this before until you said it. I would LOVE to see evidence to this nature. A lot of books do pass through dealers hands. I never recall seeing any dealer who caters to non-slabbed DC without also catering to non-slabbed Marvel; and vice versa with slabbed books. I also never heard a collector state; I only slab my Marvels. A comic book is a comic book. When money is involved, most do not look at the publisher. The reason HOS 92 sells for less than say a Marvel 'key' like X-Men 94 is because of demand. If demand was higher this book would sell for much more.

 

Please provide evidence to your theory that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' This I need to see.

 

'mint'

 

I can't quote any real "facts", but as a long time dealer and collector, I believe that serious SA DC collectors tend to be 1) Older and 2) Less likely to send books in to be slabbed.

 

I cannot prove it. It is based on my knowledge of DC collectors I know and/or have sold books to. They grew up reading comics in the 50's and early 60's. The Marvel "style" doesn't appeal so much to them because they like the circumstances of the stories to change but the hero to be unchanging. And the concept of locking a book up in a slab is pretty odd - even useless to them. A waste of money

 

My statements only speak to a trend. There are of course DC collectors that love them hard plastic holders and certification.

 

Several have also asked about the comparatively low numbers of HOS 92. Come on. It was a darn HORROR book. It didn't sell as well and it didn't sell to collectors. It sold to people that liked the cover, read it in the bathroom and tossed it in a pile. Or the trash.

 

As a dealer, I cannot count the number of times I have gone to collector's house. to purchase books. They might have 2,000 superhero comics, mostly Marvels, neatly bagged and boarded. The War and SciFi/Horror books thrown haphazard in a box with out even bags. That's why HOS 92 (and 81& HOM 174) bring a big price when they turn up in high grade. They were not seriously "collected" for a long time.

[Tony S]

A 9.4 copy of HOS 92 is a very significant book......one that is actively considered by many Marvel Purists.

 

 

Actively considered a significant comic? I would not disagree, but it's not one I would actively pursue. Back in the 70's I pursued Kamandi issues 60 and 61 until I found out they where in Cancelled Comic Cavalcade and then I pursued that without success.

 

I wouldn't consider my collection complete without a nice HOS 92. Incredible cover and one of DC's enduring 70's creations.

 

You are seeking the near unobtainable when you pursue Cancelled Comics Cavalcade The OPG says only 35 were made and the last recorded sale was 2007. But I wish you luck.

[shrunkenhead]

a)

I also dispute the fact that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' In fact I have NEVER heard this before until you said it. I would LOVE to see evidence to this nature. A lot of books do pass through dealers hands. I never recall seeing any dealer who caters to non-slabbed DC without also catering to non-slabbed Marvel; and vice versa with slabbed books. I also never heard a collector state; I only slab my Marvels. A comic book is a comic book. When money is involved, most do not look at the publisher. The reason HOS 92 sells for less than say a Marvel 'key' like X-Men 94 is because of demand. If demand was higher this book would sell for much more.

 

Please provide evidence to your theory that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' This I need to see.

 

'mint'

 

I can't quote any real "facts", but as a long time dealer and collector, I believe that serious SA DC collectors tend to be 1) Older and 2) Less likely to send books in to be slabbed.

 

I cannot prove it. It is based on my knowledge of DC collectors I know and/or have sold books to. They grew up reading comics in the 50's and early 60's. The Marvel "style" doesn't appeal so much to them because they like the circumstances of the stories to change but the hero to be unchanging. And the concept of locking a book up in a slab is pretty odd - even useless to them. A waste of money

 

My statements only speak to a trend. There are of course DC collectors that love them hard plastic holders and certification.

 

Several have also asked about the comparatively low numbers of HOS 92. Come on. It was a darn HORROR book. It didn't sell as well and it didn't sell to collectors. It sold to people that liked the cover, read it in the bathroom and tossed it in a pile. Or the trash.

 

As a dealer, I cannot count the number of times I have gone to collector's house. to purchase books. They might have 2,000 superhero comics, mostly Marvels, neatly bagged and boarded. The War and SciFi/Horror books thrown haphazard in a box with out even bags. That's why HOS 92 (and 81& HOM 174) bring a big price when they turn up in high grade. They were not seriously "collected" for a long time.

 

This is very much my own experience as well---older collectors are more likely to be into DC and less likely to be interested in slabs. I don't know what kind of evidence can be collected other than anecdotal, but my sense is that if you took a poll of dealers, this would be the general trend.

 

Ditto on the relative scarcity of horror books. Yes, pressing is going to inflate the census and depress prices, but there is a lot less to worry about with DC horror than an x-men key.

[Jeffro.]

I think a better comparison would be Giant Size X-Men 1 vs HoS 92? At least there you're talking about two 1st appearances

[Tony S]

I think a better comparison would be Giant Size X-Men 1 vs HoS 92? At least there you're talking about two 1st appearances

 

It might compare to 1st appearances, but otherwise it is a poorer comparison. In 9.4 and above X-Men 94 is worth more than GS X-Men 1. In 9.8 X-Men 94 is more than double the price of GS 1

 

In case you wonder why - it's the population

 

X-Men 94

9.8 (16) 9.6 (61) 9.4 (141)

 

GS X-Men 1

9.8 (78) 9.6 (191) 9.4 (313

 

 

HOS 92 (for comparison)

 

9.8 (2) 9.6 (13) 9.4 (30) 9.2 (37)

 

There is a balance between the popularity of a comic and it's availability. But this is why I like HOS 92 a lot - and lower census books in general. There are more GS X-Men 1's in 9.8 than there are HOS 92 in 9.4 or better. ALMOST as many GS X-Men 1's in 9.8 as there are HOS 92 in 9.2 or better.

 

Despite introducing a very popular, successful and enduring franchise, it is hard for GS X-Men 1 to break out of a certain range. When a copy or two sells at a good (that is above moving average) price, sellers see that as a chance to get a good price on their copies and more books enter the market. When a few copies sell below the moving average, sellers that can sit and wait.

 

 

[vader2001]

A 9.4 copy of HOS 92 is a very significant book......one that is actively considered by many Marvel Purists.

 

 

Actively considered a significant comic? I would not disagree, but it's not one I would actively pursue. Back in the 70's I pursued Kamandi issues 60 and 61 until I found out they where in Cancelled Comic Cavalcade and then I pursued that without success.

 

I wouldn't consider my collection complete without a nice HOS 92. Incredible cover and one of DC's enduring 70's creations.

 

You are seeking the near unobtainable when you pursue Cancelled Comics Cavalcade The OPG says only 35 were made and the last recorded sale was 2007. But I wish you luck.

 

Thanks Tony S, I have read the Kamandi 60 & 61. A friend of mine found the CCC on the internet and printed them for me to read. I saw the price that it went for in 07 and was surprised it did not go for more. I also was a little bewildered that they only made 35.

 

Sorry for the derail! Back to the original topic HOS 92 or X 94.

[Jeffro.]

I think a better comparison would be Giant Size X-Men 1 vs HoS 92? At least there you're talking about two 1st appearances

 

It might compare to 1st appearances, but otherwise it is a poorer comparison. In 9.4 and above X-Men 94 is worth more than GS X-Men 1. In 9.8 X-Men 94 is more than double the price of GS 1

 

In case you wonder why - it's the population

 

X-Men 94

9.8 (16) 9.6 (61) 9.4 (141)

 

GS X-Men 1

9.8 (78) 9.6 (191) 9.4 (313

 

 

HOS 92 (for comparison)

 

9.8 (2) 9.6 (13) 9.4 (30) 9.2 (37)

 

There is a balance between the popularity of a comic and it's availability. But this is why I like HOS 92 a lot - and lower census books in general. There are more GS X-Men 1's in 9.8 than there are HOS 92 in 9.4 or better. ALMOST as many GS X-Men 1's in 9.8 as there are HOS 92 in 9.2 or better.

 

Despite introducing a very popular, successful and enduring franchise, it is hard for GS X-Men 1 to break out of a certain range. When a copy or two sells at a good (that is above moving average) price, sellers see that as a chance to get a good price on their copies and more books enter the market. When a few copies sell below the moving average, sellers that can sit and wait.

 

 

Wow, thanks for that. I would have thought the numbers for 94 and GS1 would have been reversed.

[sterlingcomics]

I would say buy what you like and you will never go wrong.

 

I live by those words every day. There's a zillion ways to enjoy the hobby...making sense has never been my strong suit.

 

For the record, I will have a HOS 92 in 9.8 to complete my HOS collection. Pricing/demand will not be a factor. How's that for illogical!

[sterlingcomics]

Please provide evidence to your theory that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' This I need to see.

 

I'm sure it's not quantifiable, but it is interesting to see the serious gap between the books between the two camp that get certified. I for one can't account for it.

[mintcollector]

Please provide evidence to your theory that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' This I need to see.

 

I'm sure it's not quantifiable, but it is interesting to see the serious gap between the books between the two camp that get certified. I for one can't account for it.

 

Supply and demand. A s someone already said, not many people saved horror comics. Believe me, when money is involved it does not matter about true 'collectors.'

[bronze johnny]

If your goal as a collector is to get the rarer key in high grade, then by all means get HOS 92. But before you do that, make sure you get a copy of DC 100 Page Super Spectacular 5 and a copies of Super DC Giant 17 and 21. Now if your goal is to go after the most historically significant BA keys in high grade, get these 3 books first and in this order: GS X-Men 1, Hulk 181, and X-Men 94.

 

You can't go wrong either way- that is one of the great things about this hobby.

 

 

 

[sterlingcomics]

Please provide evidence to your theory that 'many DC collectors are NOT slab collectors.' This I need to see.

 

I'm sure it's not quantifiable, but it is interesting to see the serious gap between the books between the two camp that get certified. I for one can't account for it.

 

Supply and demand. A s someone already said, not many people saved horror comics. Believe me, when money is involved it does not matter about true 'collectors.'

 

I believe I was talking about across the board, not just the one genre...the fact that there are simply more Marvel than DC certified...but I guess the answer still applies. :thumbsup:

 

I'll ping valiantman to see if he can churn some real stats from the census, as I'm just curious.