The BIGGEST problems in the hobby right now

[shrunkenhead]

I guess you have never experienced a 1/2 hour grading debate over the grade and price of a book you've wanted to sell. Especially if you were trying to get overguide for it.

 

You're right, I haven't. If the comic is right there and so is the buyer,where's the problem? The buyer can grade the comic for himself and then decide how much he is willing to pay, and then you either have a deal or you don't, and if you're pricing the comic over guide, it's going to be less likely that a deal will be reached.

 

Mail order is a messier situation.

 

 

Bob must have had a million of those 1/2 hr sessions. Jeez I can remember selling books 10 and 15 years ago where those sessions would happen on $200 books.

 

Even a casual, once in a blue moon, local show seller like me knows exactly what Bob's talking about. It was pretty common before cgc. Now you might still have people looking to see if its a strong or weak cgc 9.2, for example, but having the more expensive books be graded sure cuts a lot of the BS out

 

Been there too, back when I did local shows with more regularity. I had folks who would do prolonged grade debates on $15 books. I used to offer "go away please" discounts b/c it got so mind-numbing.

[chrisco37]

The normal course of human knowledge is that it gets refined and improved as time goes on, so I would love for CGC to have a viable option for refining their standard--but they're in a tough spot. I'm not sure what I'd do if I were in the shoes worn by Borock, Haspel, and Litch over the years about refining the standard.

 

I agree. Much of the market is obviously quite happy with current CGC practices, as they have done millions of dollars of business over the years. Those that aren't have had three choices... (a) they live with it (b) if they dislike it enough, they simply don't have books graded, or © they can hold off and await the inevitable arrival of a viable competitor into the marketplace.

 

But there is one other solution... "so crazy... it just might work!"

 

CGC could offer the viable alternative themselves.

 

After 10 years they have established one type of service... the "traditional" service. But nothing says they can't offer up their own competition... a new (they'll need to come up with a nifty name for it) grading service... one that perhaps has only 20 tiers of grading, a single color label that simply downgrades appropriately for restoration and qualifications, while notating briefly such on the label. They could also, in this way, subtly address some grading aspects in the new system without having to undo the old system for those that prefer it.

 

You simply request which system you wish to use when submitting your books... Traditional or New (New would have a different color, and probably an all new label design easily distinguishable, just as a new competitor would, or should).

 

Cost for CGC is negligible. Same holders they have now. Same staff. Same background and talent. Just new labels and an adjustment on their grades slightly from one system to the other. If the New system doesn't take off, they're not out much. If both systems remain viable, based on the choice of the submitters, they solve a lot of issues to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Chances are, they'd make even MORE money. People who prefer the new system might resubmit their old slabs and thus generate even more income for CGC (a huge concern of theirs has to be that over time, the existing body of slabbable older comics gets smaller and smaller with each passing year).

 

They wouldn't be doing anything that a new competitor couldn't do, so would be cutting off potential new competition at the knees even before it got started. Traditionalists would be unaffected. They would certainly be getting thousands of restored books submitted or re-submitted to them under the new system. Those that want the purity of their slabs not to include restoration would simply stick with the old system. Two different markets for two different kinds of folks.

 

There are multiple grading companies for coins and cards. In comics, there would still be only 2. And both of them would be CGC. Win-win.

 

(bonuses and commissions can be sent to me care of my shop-- thanks!)

 

Sounds like Wizard First which was universally panned upon announcement.

[arexcrooke]

Sounds more like Beckett classic card grading side of BGS. Different grading standards, more "old school", and a complete and total flop.

So no, I don't think having CGC and CGC old school is a good idea.

[Hepcat]

Bob must have had a million of those 1/2 hr sessions. Jeez I can remember selling books 10 and 15 years ago where those sessions would happen on $200 books.

 

Been there too, back when I did local shows with more regularity. I had folks who would do prolonged grade debates on $15 books. I used to offer "go away please" discounts b/c it got so mind-numbing.

 

There was no need for mind numbing debates. Your proper response should have been "You see the comic. You assign your own grade. But whatever grade you decide, my price for the comic is $X. Yes, I can be flexible on price, with people who neither badger nor harass me about my grading.

 

[Logan510]

Sounds more like Beckett classic card grading side of BGS. Different grading standards, more "old school", and a complete and total flop.

So no, I don't think having CGC and CGC old school is a good idea.

 

 

+1 if there's anything I've learned working in the corporate world it's that being your own biggest competitor normally doesn't work.

[Hepcat]

Sounds more like Beckett classic card grading side of BGS. Different grading standards, more "old school", and a complete and total flop.

So no, I don't think having CGC and CGC old school is a good idea.

 

What is "old school" grading when it comes to cards? My primary beef with card grading is that there's no penalty for yellowing, yet they're absolutely anal about centering.

 

[Hepcat]

Sounds more like Beckett classic card grading side of BGS. Different grading standards, more "old school", and a complete and total flop.

So no, I don't think having CGC and CGC old school is a good idea.

 

 

+1 if there's anything I've learned working in the corporate world it's that being your own biggest competitor normally doesn't work.

 

Keep in mind though the old adage that you better cannibalize yourself before somebody else does it for you.

 

 

[Logan510]

Sounds more like Beckett classic card grading side of BGS. Different grading standards, more "old school", and a complete and total flop.

So no, I don't think having CGC and CGC old school is a good idea.

 

 

+1 if there's anything I've learned working in the corporate world it's that being your own biggest competitor normally doesn't work.

 

Keep in mind though the old adage that you better cannibalize yourself before somebody else does it for you.

 

 

Fortunately ( or unfortunately as the case may be ) I work for a company that makes a habit of buying out competitors and then absorbs them completely into their business.

[lou_fine]

Although it's still a valid question, maybe I indeed could have phrased it a little more diplomatically.

 

To everybody who was offended by my question.

 

I'm still not sure how you're thinking that Borock, Haspel, Friesan, and Litch are Scrooge-like newbs, but no biggie, glad to hear you didn't mean to be hatin'.

 

FF;

 

With respect to my original comments, I was referring to the bigger CGC picture as a whole and not simply to the tape issue which I am totally in agreement with everybody here. The tape issue is just one small piece of the overall much bigger picture with CGC and is one of the definite negatives along with many of the positives which CGC brings about.

 

Based upon West's reply to me about simply being an employee and having no influence at all on the powers that be, I was definitely not including your list of 4 CGC personnel to be part of the latter group. To me, both Steve and Mark were still only employees of CGC at the time, although they were definitely the face of the company, but still employees nonetheless. They can come and go at any point in time, and as we have seen, are no longer even with the company.

 

No, to me the powers that be are the ones above the names which we are so accustomed to and the nameless ones that end up reaping the rewards from the additional revenue streams that the employees are mandated to come up with. They are the ones that set the real tone and determine the direction with which the company moves, and if the employees below them don't like what has to be done to satisfy the powers that be, they always have a choice.

 

BTW: Maybe I shouldn't be posting in the middle of the night when I am half asleep and my head is hitting the tabletop.

[fantastic_four]

I agree. Much of the market is obviously quite happy with current CGC practices, as they have done millions of dollars of business over the years. Those that aren't have had three choices... (a) they live with it (b) if they dislike it enough, they simply don't have books graded, or © they can hold off and await the inevitable arrival of a viable competitor into the marketplace.

 

But there is one other solution... "so crazy... it just might work!"

 

CGC could offer the viable alternative themselves.

 

After 10 years they have established one type of service... the "traditional" service. But nothing says they can't offer up their own competition... a new (they'll need to come up with a nifty name for it) grading service... one that perhaps has only 20 tiers of grading, a single color label that simply downgrades appropriately for restoration and qualifications, while notating briefly such on the label. They could also, in this way, subtly address some grading aspects in the new system without having to undo the old system for those that prefer it.

 

You simply request which system you wish to use when submitting your books... Traditional or New (New would have a different color, and probably an all new label design easily distinguishable, just as a new competitor would, or should).

 

Cost for CGC is negligible. Same holders they have now. Same staff. Same background and talent. Just new labels and an adjustment on their grades slightly from one system to the other. If the New system doesn't take off, they're not out much. If both systems remain viable, based on the choice of the submitters, they solve a lot of issues to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Chances are, they'd make even MORE money. People who prefer the new system might resubmit their old slabs and thus generate even more income for CGC (a huge concern of theirs has to be that over time, the existing body of slabbable older comics gets smaller and smaller with each passing year).

 

They wouldn't be doing anything that a new competitor couldn't do, so would be cutting off potential new competition at the knees even before it got started. Traditionalists would be unaffected. They would certainly be getting thousands of restored books submitted or re-submitted to them under the new system. Those that want the purity of their slabs not to include restoration would simply stick with the old system. Two different markets for two different kinds of folks.

 

There are multiple grading companies for coins and cards. In comics, there would still be only 2. And both of them would be CGC. Win-win.

 

(bonuses and commissions can be sent to me care of my shop-- thanks!)

 

If CGC had multiple simultaneous grading systems/standards, how am I as a customer supposed to figure out which one to trust?

[Bronty]

exactly. two different label colors have been causing an uproar for 15 years, but two different outright companies is going to cause no confusion? good luck

 

good idea in theory but in practice people won't remember which is which, won't know which one to trust, etc etc. Good idea in theory, Cluster F in practice.

[Comicopolis]

I guess you have never experienced a 1/2 hour grading debate over the grade and price of a book you've wanted to sell. Especially if you were trying to get overguide for it.

 

I've had years of dealing with eagle eye buyers and when they attempt to sell me something suddenly develop issues with their eyesight.

 

I can see why a person who feels that he knows how to grade would have an issue with a person only buying the book unless it's in a CGC holder and in that grade.

 

My stance on "grading is subjective" is that if people were taught how to grade using a published standard that makes sense you wouldn't have most of the problems we do today.

 

And if you want to see an interesting thread develop ask collector/dealers what's the most important area to determine grade? Spine, front cover/back cover, corner, color strike, gloss, page quality etc. I think you would be surprised at where this thread went.

 

Do it!

[fantastic_four]

FF;

 

With respect to my original comments, I was referring to the bigger CGC picture as a whole and not simply to the tape issue which I am totally in agreement with everybody here. The tape issue is just a small piece of the overall bigger picture with CGC and is one of the definite negatives along with many of the positives which CGC brings about.

 

Based upon West's reply to me about simply being an employee and having no influence on the powers that are, I was definitely not including your list of 4 CGC personnel to be part of the latter group. To me, both Steve and Mark were still only employees of CGC at the time, although they were definitely the face of the company, but still employees nonetheless. They can come and go at any point in time, and as we have seen, are no longer even with the company.

 

No, to me the powers to be are the ones above the names which we are so accustomed to and the ones that end up reaping the rewards from the additional revenue streams that the employees are mandated to come up with. They are the ones that set the tone and determine the direction with which the company moves, and if the employees below them don't like what has to be done to satisfy the powers that are, they always have a choice.

 

BTW: Maybe I shouldn't be posting in the middle of the night when I am half asleep and my head is hitting the tabletop.

 

Steve Borock has said in the forums that the Collector's Society tasked him with creating the grading standards, but perhaps they did override some of his ideas. I'd guess they didn't as it's not their area of knowledge, but perhaps West heard or Borock will comment if he thinks he can.

[Bookery]

good idea in theory but in practice people won't remember which is which, won't know which one to trust, etc etc. Good idea in theory, Cluster F in practice.

 

Oh well... and here I'd spent minutes and minutes working it all through before posting... all that time gone to waste!

 

Anyhoo... my neighbor Kramden has a million-dollar scheme I'm sure will work... I'll let you know how it works out!