BrianR Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 no. I just read the forums and remember stuff. I actually enjoy your posts and your point of view. I agree with you most of the time. Its fun to debate topics. No need to resort to name calling. Then please don't go back and try and put words in my mouth - if you remember my comments, then you know my hatred for Modern hacks has nothing to do with Marvel or its history. It's kind of like giving comics to your younger sibling and he rips them all to shreds - Marvel Modern hacks. See this is where we agree again. I just buy FF to keep my collection going. Stopped buying all other Marvel moderns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTheDavid Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Marvel Premiere #1 CGC 9.4 @ $92 & 44 watchers. Now you guys done it. All this talk about 1st app and people are silly enough to believe you. The truth is never silly, and Marvel Premiere 1 is actually the First Appearance of Warlock. I'm just teasing you. I have no issues. I thought Fantastic Four #67 was first appearance of Warlock. According to CPG, MP#1 is origin. See what you started, Mike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Elijah Snow Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Did HIM/Warlock live in a cave in Thor #165? Is it really a speedo? Isn't that a brand name, like Jello? So many questions. I think someone should make one of those voting poll things. My opinion is: FF 66,67 cameo Thor #165 1st Full Marvel Premiere #1 when the character was revamped to resemble what he is like today. I don't know anyone that considers Uncanny X-men #256 the first appearance of Psylocke just because she is best known as an asian ninja. It's either Captain Britain #8, or New Mutants annual #2 (depending on how someone considers US or foreign apps). She is literally in a different body in the uncanny issue, but that doesn't make her a different character. Just because him/warlock doesn't have some of the things that have become staples of the character in Thor #165 doesn't make that issue any less of a 1st full appearance. It's not like every distinguishing feature of a character is always in play in their 1st appearance. That doesn't change the fact that the character had a full appearance in a particular issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike's Rack Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 no. I just read the forums and remember stuff. I actually enjoy your posts and your point of view. I agree with you most of the time. Its fun to debate topics. No need to resort to name calling. Then please don't go back and try and put words in my mouth - if you remember my comments, then you know my hatred for Modern hacks has nothing to do with Marvel or its history. It's kind of like giving comics to your younger sibling and he rips them all to shreds - Marvel Modern hacks. Wait, don't go back and put your own words in your mouth I like your takes too, and I actually agree with your take on MP 1 but it seems like your own words are fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianR Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 no. I just read the forums and remember stuff. I actually enjoy your posts and your point of view. I agree with you most of the time. Its fun to debate topics. No need to resort to name calling. Then please don't go back and try and put words in my mouth - if you remember my comments, then you know my hatred for Modern hacks has nothing to do with Marvel or its history. It's kind of like giving comics to your younger sibling and he rips them all to shreds - Marvel Modern hacks. Wait, don't go back and put your own words in your mouth I like your takes too, and I actually agree with your take on MP 1 but it seems like your own words are fair game. So when Hulk went back to grey and change his name to Mr Fix It if I recall correctly; is a new first appearance? "New" color, new outfit, new attitude. As for powers is FF21 important? Sue gain power of invisibility over other objects and able to project force field same character new powers How many costume changes has Iron man had? What about Hawkeye becoming Giant Man, new name, powers and costume? Its a new creative look and direction only. This happens with so many characters we would be full of new first appearances. I understand JC hating modern Marvel but he is using a .com site that modern Marvel recreated while making fun of a reconn that if I am not mistaken took place in the bronze age. Never read Avengers that much. Might be later when AWC re-intro'd the original Human Torch in issue 50 still in the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverdream Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 no. I just read the forums and remember stuff. I actually enjoy your posts and your point of view. I agree with you most of the time. Its fun to debate topics. No need to resort to name calling. Then please don't go back and try and put words in my mouth - if you remember my comments, then you know my hatred for Modern hacks has nothing to do with Marvel or its history. It's kind of like giving comics to your younger sibling and he rips them all to shreds - Marvel Modern hacks. Wait, don't go back and put your own words in your mouth I like your takes too, and I actually agree with your take on MP 1 but it seems like your own words are fair game. So when Hulk went back to grey and change his name to Mr Fix It if I recall correctly; is a new first appearance? "New" color, new outfit, new attitude. As for powers is FF21 important? Sue gain power of invisibility over other objects and able to project force field same character new powers How many costume changes has Iron man had? What about Hawkeye becoming Giant Man, new name, powers and costume? Its a new creative look and direction only. This happens with so many characters we would be full of new first appearances. I understand JC hating modern Marvel but he is using a .com site that modern Marvel recreated while making fun of a reconn that if I am not mistaken took place in the bronze age. Never read Avengers that much. Might be later when AWC re-intro'd the original Human Torch in issue 50 still in the 80's. I think the perspective you are missing is the fact that ALL of the characters you have mentioned were well established before they recieved new powers or changed costumes. Him had 5 cameos, 2 full book appearances and then disapeared for a few years, basically thrown away by marvel. Iron man evolved very slowly with minor changes along the way, having at least 1 appearance every single month for the last 50 years. Him was never really developed, thrown away and came back as something very different years later. There is a difference between characters evolving over time and a character that was thrown away being brought back to life in a completely different way. Either way this MP1 thing will just keep going. I personally think it should be listed as " Him becomes Warlock." " Origin of warlock" listing it as a 1st app opens too many cans o worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjrjr Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Let's settle the debate: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjrjr Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 And one more: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTheDavid Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Shouldn't it be, Is Warlock HIM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjrjr Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Shouldn't it be, Is Warlock HIM? Yeah, I had a hard time coming up with a poll title for that one. I figured the gist is there though. I'm honestly not sure what the results will be on this one. Seems like both sides are passionate about their take on it and this will be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike's Rack Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Who's on first? him No HIM's on second. No Warlock is on second. That's HIM. Who's HIM? He's hot but he's no Warlock!... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 So when Hulk went back to grey and change his name to Mr Fix It if I recall correctly; is a new first appearance? If he a) got new powers, b) got new power accessory (Soul Gem) c) got a new personality, d) got a new costume, e) got a new world to play around with and most importantly of all, f) stuck with that same basic character design for decades, then yes, I would agree. Him - Warlock is exactly the same as The Cat - Tigra, and I guess no one will dispute that first appearance until a Tigra movie gets announced and everyone holding Cat #1 NM issues will start in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Shouldn't it be, Is Warlock HIM? OMG, that's got to be the dumbest poll I've ever seen, and whoever created that should be beaten to a pulp. No one ever disputed whether Roy Thomas took the Speedo-wearing, caveman Him and used that template to develop the new superhero Warlock, just as Greer Nelson is both The Cat and Tigra, only that the transformation is so severe, that Him does not resemble Warlock is any tangible way. They just took Him as the clay for Warlock because of copyright issues, and wanted to transform a character they already owned. Warlock was its own unique concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 And the other poll is equally insipid, as Warlock did not exist until MP 1, and there is no mention of him in any of the FF or Thor magazines. FF 66/67 and Thor 165 are the first appearances of Him, not Warlock, and the point being debated is whether MP 1 deserves a "First Appearance of Warlock" notation rather than the totally-illogical "Origin of Warlock". That's it, Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 So what's up with this book being so expensive? Is it rumors of the movie Bucky/Winter Soldier being a version of the 50's Bucky Jack Monroe or just more Nomad stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heronext Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Great polls. Regarding them - Him is Warlock, Warlock is Him. Him was originally known as Him, then later he was known as Warlock. An important development in this character's life, no doubt. Cary Grant is Archibald Leach. Archibald Leach is Cary Grant. Names can be changed, they are not so important. So can clothes, jewelry and other accoutrements. FF #67 and Marvel Premiere #1 are both correct answers to the question "What is the first appearance of Warlock?" Obviously, FF 67 & Thor 165 came first. Do you prefer to own MP 1 over any of these other books? That's up to you. Should MP 1 be worth more than Thor 165? Almost every other example in the market proves that the earlier appearance is more coveted. I say almost - the first cover appearance of Black Canary in Flash 92 is listed as worth more in the OSPG than her first appearance in Flash 86. Should the label on MP 1 be changed? Actually I think the label on Giant Size Creatures #1 should be changed. Technically both notations are correct but I think "1st appearance" is thrown around too much and prefer the more descriptive notations "Cat becomes Tigra" & "Him becomes Adam Warlock." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heronext Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 So what's up with this book being so expensive? Is it rumors of the movie Bucky/Winter Soldier being a version of the 50's Bucky Jack Monroe or just more Nomad stuff? I don't think THAT book would ever be expensive. By the way I like the speech bubble you added to the Falcon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 FF #67 and Marvel Premiere #1 are both correct answers to the question "What is the first appearance of Warlock?" Sorry, but that doesn't agree with the known rules of time and space, and I have never seen those issues noted like that. It's always "First Appearance of Him" with notation of "(Becomes Warlock)" or similar notation in brackets. The Warlock character design, name, costume, powers, and Soul Gem did not exist until 1972, so it's impossible for Warlock to appear earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 So what's up with this book being so expensive? Is it rumors of the movie Bucky/Winter Soldier being a version of the 50's Bucky Jack Monroe or just more Nomad stuff? I don't think THAT book would ever be expensive. That's the rare "Profanity Variant" I like to post sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heronext Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 FF #67 and Marvel Premiere #1 are both correct answers to the question "What is the first appearance of Warlock?" Sorry, but that doesn't agree with the known rules of time and space, and I have never seen those issues noted like that. It's always "First Appearance of Him" with notation of "(Becomes Warlock)" or similar notation in brackets. The Warlock character design, name, costume, powers, and Soul Gem did not exist until 1972, so it's impossible for Warlock to appear earlier. FF67 is still a correct answer to that question. When was Cary Grant born? 1904. Is that what I want to see on the label? No, it should be "1st appearance of Him who becomes Adam Warlock" or something to that effect. But it doesn't change the fact that it is an acceptable answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
