Copper's Heating/Selling Well on Ebay 33 33

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

The OPG may have had GSXM #1 at that price, but I can assure you it was selling for more than that in 1978. It wasn't even a $75 book yet, but it certainly was more than $1.80.

 

I guess that depends on how much more you're talking about. I suspect it wouldn't have been hard at all to find a copy for $2 at that year's SDCC, or Chicago.

 

1978 was a big year for the X-Men, their breakout year, when people started to take notice of the NEW X-Men.

 

But...in the 1979 OPG, GSXM #1 was only $3.75.

 

And by 1980 OPG, it was $9.00.

 

And this is when the OPG was pretty close to the market, as small as it was.

 

Was OPG slow on the uptake...? Oh, sure, it always has been, even when it was as close to the market as it was then. But two YEARS slow...?

 

1980 was the madness year for X-Men back issues...and, it was reflected in the 1981 OPG, when the book made the leap from $9 to $60, with all the rest following suit. Dark Phoenix was BIG. BIG BIG BIG.

 

But 1978...? Not so much.

 

[Logan510]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

The OPG may have had GSXM #1 at that price, but I can assure you it was selling for more than that in 1978. It wasn't even a $75 book yet, but it certainly was more than $1.80.

 

I guess that depends on how much more you're talking about. I suspect it wouldn't have been hard at all to find a copy for $2 at that year's SDCC, or Chicago.

 

1978 was a big year for the X-Men, their breakout year, when people started to take notice of the NEW X-Men.

 

But...in the 1979 OPG, GSXM #1 was only $3.75.

 

And by 1980 OPG, it was $9.00.

 

And this is when the OPG was pretty close to the market, as small as it was.

 

Was OPG slow on the uptake...? Oh, sure, it always has been, even when it was as close to the market as it was then. But two YEARS slow...?

 

1980 was the madness year for X-Men back issues...and, it was reflected in the 1981 OPG, when the book made the leap from $9 to $60, with all the rest following suit. Dark Phoenix was BIG. BIG BIG BIG.

 

But 1978...? Not so much.

 

Locally it was going for more and mail order copies were advertised for a bit more. I was a kid, so granted, my perspective may be a little clouded. We should ask Moondog ( Gary ), I'm positive he can give us an idea of what he was selling them for back then.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So how do you explain #361?

 

Demand exceeding supply.

 

Are people printing copies in their basement? Is Marvel still printing them? The demand has exceeded the supply, and thus, the price rises.

 

This isn't rocket surgery.

 

Exactly what I'm telling you. So you are basically proving my point now.

 

Because if that print run doesn't change things, then it certainly won't in regard to Legends #3.

 

No, but ok, whatever you say.

 

Why do you think Amazing Spiderman #361 had a "large print run"...?

 

Are you aware (and I ask this rhetorically, because I know you are) that it went IMMEDIATELY to a second printing?

 

Why?

 

Because there wasn't enough to satisfy the demand.

 

Those of you who keep saying "Amazing Spiderman #361 had a huge print run!" aren't aware of the facts, aren't aware of the numbers, and are ignoring the most damning piece of evidence you have against you: the existence of an immediate second printing of BOTH this issue AND the next, practically unheard of!

 

Let's look at real numbers:

 

Cap City orders (remember...about 15-25% of the DM at the time)

 

Amazing #350 - 75,600

#351 - not reported

#352 - 65,400

#353 - 79,200

#354 - 76,800

#355 - 78,300

#356 - 79,500

#357 - 76,500

#358 - 98,400

#359 - 60,600

#360 - 57,300

#361 - 68,700

#362 - 76,800

#363 - 102,600

#364 - 72,000

#365 - 221,700

#366 - 89,100

#367 - 77,700

#368 - 71,700

#369 - 71,100

#370 - 67,000

#371 - 66,400

 

That should be a representative enough sample for all concerned.

 

These are actual, published numbers from the #2 largest comic book distributor at the time. They aren't guesses, or made-up numbers based on fuzzy memories...they are actual, published numbers.

 

And what do you see?

 

You see that the title did well in the 350s, because of the 6 part Punisher/Moon Knight crossover, from a time when Punisher appearance still sold comics. The figure for #358 stands out, because it was a gimmick cover, a gatefold when those things were still rare.

 

But then, what do you see? With #359, the title sank back down.

 

From #359 to #361, you do see an increase...but only by about 20% over #360 and 13% over #359. #358 blows #361s numbers completely out of the water, by a whopping 43%!

 

Then, look at #362...you see another increase, but only about 11% more than #361.

 

This is why both issues went to immediate second printings.

 

Now, look at 363. Because 363 orders were due right around the time #361 was selling out all over the country, it got a substantial boost...a whopping 50% MORE copies ordered through Capital than #361, which is why #363 has always been the most abundant of the three.

 

These numbers clearly demonstrate that #361 was, in EITHER direction, on the lowest end of the print run scale. From #350 to #361, it was 8th out of 11. From #361 to #371, it was again, 8th out of 11 (and just barely.)

 

In fact, considering the SOO, printed in issue #375, these numbers are borne out...there were 660,958 copies printed on average for the year reported, with 544,900 copies sold on average.

 

But, you can see in that year that there were MASSIVE books that totally skewed the average...specifically #365, which was the highest selling book of the month, with well over 1,000,000 copies printed (the first...and probably the last...time that ever happened for an issue of Amazing Spidey.)

 

So, obviously, those numbers are going to be skewed by the presence of these heavyweghts, #363, #365, and #366. So, that means that the books like #361, which were on the low end already, would be driven even lower to make up the average.

 

Methodoloy aside: Now...are Cap City numbers the "real" numbers? No, not exactly. But it has been demonstrated, when comparing Diamond numbers (when known) and Cap City numbers from when they were both in operation, against the SOO numbers, that Cap City numbers can be reasonably be extrapolated to be a certain percentage of the market, across the board. That is, they're "close enough" that these numbers are close to being accurate, especially as they relate to one another among different issues. In other words, Diamond wouldn't have gotten 4 times the orders for a particular issue (think MOS #19) without Cap City getting a concurrent boost.

 

Come on, folks. Don't just make stuff up, using vague descriptions because that's what "you remember." Use hard data, and make real cases.

 

#361 did NOT have a "huge print run", and the published numbers very clearly prove that to be true.

[RockMyAmadeus]

We should ask Moondog ( Gary ), I'm positive he can give us an idea of what he was selling them for back then.

 

That is an excellent idea. I trust his memory.

 

Of course, actual printed for sale ads would help, too. Anybody got any Buyer's Guides from that time period?

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I think we simply disagree on our thoughts regarding what makes a comic valuable.

 

What makes a comic valuable is: supply and demand.

 

 

Okay, then we do agree, and have since the very beginning of this discussion.

 

 

 

It is supply AND demand. Conversely, and also true, it is demand AND supply!

 

They both work TOGETHER, because they are two sides of the same coin.

 

Of course supply and demand should both be taken into consideration, but when you see a familiar pattern repeating itself again and again under certain circumstances, I suggest trusting the evidence frequently laid out before you.

 

See, the part where you tell me that supply and demand are both important, and then quote me as saying that supply and demand are both important, is where the confusion is coming from.

 

What I am saying, and what we may also agree upon, is that if Amazing Spider-Man #300 and Spider-Man #1 had similar print runs, Amazing #300 would always be worth more. There is a far, far greater demand for that book, and every book Kevin cited as an example of demand outweighing what he viewed as a fairly plentiful supply.

 

The reason I question whether or not we agree, is due to the fact that you equated the two books in two separate replies to Kevin76. And in one post you went so far as to say Spider-Man #1 also "would be a $XXX book". Also, I questioned why you referenced print run at all in regard to any of those books which are clearly among the most important first appearances of the last forty years. Especially Hulk #181.

 

This is most likely where the disconnect occurred, because I'm proposing that there have been very few print runs in the existence of the medium which would create a supply exceeding the demand for the first appearance of Wolverine. I also took it a step further, and stated that supply is often of much less importance "in this hobby" because there are no keys with an outrageous supply in the multiple millions, thus rendering any discussion of such a hypothetical scenario pointless.

 

I referred to the uselessness of the hypothetical scenario in both my first and second replies, yet we kept discussing it for some reason. I also clearly repeated in multiple posts that both supply and demand are important. However, like I've stated, there isn't enough supply to worry about when it comes to key first appearances(I can understand if you think that I'm wrong about this, but I'm not saying that supply doesn't ever matter in any situation - it's just not an important factor in this particular one).

 

If this is a misunderstanding on my part, then I have caused us to repeat the same points back and forth for no good reason. Sorry about that. Oh well, at least I'm closing in on 100 posts now.

 

 

[paul747]

Ams #300 and NM #98 are loaded with high grade copies Hulk #181 is not even close to the same percentages and arguably wolverine is A -list character and more sought out than the others.

 

X-force number 2 is never going to see the same submitted numbers of the others, the value will drop before it gets to that point.

 

For as popular as wolverine is Hulk 181 does have a ton of copies compared to silver age key books but is not even in the same category as NM #98 Hulk #181 is super rare compared to the modern keys.

Demand vs supply = price

 

HULK #181 (will hold and keep crawling out of its depressed prices, like it has been)

 

Near Mint/Mint 9.8 83 0 6 0 89 =649 high grade copies

Near Mint + 9.6 229 1 23 7 260

Near Mint 9.4 337

 

NM #98

 

Near Mint/Mint 9.8 1482 4 198 1 1685 = 4509 high grade copies

Near Mint + 9.6 1693 14 226 2 1935

Near Mint 9.4 889

 

AMS #300

 

Near Mint/Mint 9.8 533 3 124 3 663

Near Mint + 9.6 1622 14 285 20 1941 =4352 high grade copies

Near Mint 9.4 1748

 

X-force #2

 

Near Mint/Mint 9.8 373 0 38 0 411

Near Mint + 9.6 90 0 7 0 97 =538 just started.

Near Mint 9.4 30

[RockMyAmadeus]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

What many of you consider to be a large print run, isn't.

 

The real question is, what do YOU consider to be a large print run? Let's get specific.

 

Aside from the monsters (Spiderman, X-Force, X-Men) there weren't many titles that had million+ print runs, even for specific issues, up through 1992.

 

The vast, vast majority of books...until 1993...still had print runs in the 200-400k territory.

 

Yes, if we are talking about 10 million copies, that changes things. The print run on Legends #3 isn't high enough to matter if things play out the way they repeatedly have these last few years.

 

Do you know what the print run for Legends #3 is?

 

Cap City orders have a number of 45,150, against Superman #1 orders of 91,650. (And MOS #1 numbers of 175,000+)

 

Remember...these numbers took DC over Marvel in sales for the first time since 1971. They are gargantuan numbers....for the time period/

 

Legends #3 was right about in the middle of where Crisis numbers were at...in fact, it beats most of them. And, remember....in 1986, the newsstand was still a force to be reckoned with, with still as much as 40% of all sales in comics. So, Legends #3 probably sold in the neighborhood of 300,000 total copies. Nothing to sneeze at. From the Cap City numbers, it looks like Legends may have been more successful even than Crisis.

 

So, no, Legends #3 is not going to be rare, even in 9.8.

 

PS. X-Factor #6? Cap City orders of 47,200....or just a shade more than Legends #3.

 

 

I've said very clearly, from my very first reply, that both supply and demand matter. However, I'm willing to buy up books with a higher print run when I see that demand is there.

 

Premised, of course, on what you perceive to be higher print run, rather than what actually has a high print run, as shown by ASM #361.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I have to take my leave of the computer for the night, but I look forward to reading more of what you have to say tomorrow, RMA. The boards are a far more enjoyable place due to your presence.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

See, the part where you tell me that supply and demand are both important, and then quote me as saying that supply and demand are both important, is where the confusion is coming from.

 

 

Demand is significantly more important than print run.

 

When it comes to comic books, demand is the driving force behind all the major keys.

 

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community

 

I guess I've misunderstood you this entire time, then?

 

What I am saying, and what we may also agree upon, is that if Amazing Spider-Man #300 and Spider-Man #1 had similar print runs, Amazing #300 would always be worth more. There is a far, far greater demand for that book, and every book Kevin cited as an example of demand outweighing what he viewed as a fairly plentiful supply.

 

Of course, but that's not what Kevin said, and he's still inaccurate. Again, define "plentiful supply" And I certainly don't disagree with you. I wouldn't go with "far, far greater demand", but it certainly is greater. To what degree will always be impossible to nail down.

 

Cap City numbers:

 

BA #12 -19,200 ( )

Amazing Spiderman #300 - 42,900 (less than Legends #3, by the way, by a not-insignificant amount)

New Mutants #98 - 55,200

 

Compare this to:

 

X-Force #2 - 279.,700

Amazing Spiderman #328 - 73,300

Spawn 1 - 204,760

Spiderman #1 - 426,200

X-Men #2 - 325,500

Superman #75 - 281,400

 

Circulation Statement (copies sold)

 

Hulk #181 - 202,592 (these are the average number of copies sold for the year in which this book was published. That means *about* 200,000 total copies were sold, and the rest returned for credit. The DM was barely beginning at this point, and would not have constituted a statistically significant portion of sales.)

 

Really puts things in perspective, doesn't it? None of the examples Kevin gave had high print runs, or even modestly large print runs...they were all in the middle to lower end of the spectrum, which is precisely why they have so much value today. Demand + supply = $$$.

 

 

The reason I question whether or not we agree, is due to the fact that you equated the two books in two separate replies to Kevin76.

 

You read those posts incorrectly.

 

And in one post you went so far as to say Spider-Man #1 also "would be a $XXX book".

 

If it had the print run of Spidey #300, it would, indeed, be a $XXX book.

 

Also, I questioned why you referenced print run at all in regard to any of those books which are clearly among the most important first appearances of the last forty years. Especially Hulk #181.

 

This is most likely where the disconnect occurred, because I'm proposing that there have been very few print runs in the existence of the medium which would create a supply exceeding the demand for the first appearance of Wolverine. I also took it a step further, and stated that supply is often of much less importance "in this hobby" because there are no keys with an outrageous supply in the multiple millions, thus rendering any discussion of such a hypothetical scenario pointless.

 

There are not only no KEYS, there are almost no BOOKS with that supply, period. Supply is not "of much less importance." It determines the value of every book. Supply AND demand.

 

I referred to the uselessness of the hypothetical scenario in both my first and second replies, yet we kept discussing it for some reason. I also clearly repeated in multiple posts that both supply and demand are important. However, like I've stated, there isn't enough supply to worry about when it comes to key first appearances(I can understand if you think that I'm wrong about this, but I'm not saying that supply doesn't ever matter in any situation - it's just not an important factor in this particular one).

 

If this is a misunderstanding on my part, then I have caused us to repeat the same points back and forth for no good reason. Sorry about that. Oh well, at least I'm closing in on 100 posts now.

 

 

Ok.

[Jeffro.]

Asm 300 Chrome seems to have stayed the same while the regular higher print run asm 300 has skyrocketed as of recent. Weird.

 

There is no ASM 300 chromium. It's called Marvel Collectible Classics Amazing Spider-Man #1

 

and wasn't that for the longest time, worth more than a regular ASM 300?

 

I just think its weird that there has been no price correction for the ASM "chrome 300" - its pretty much stayed the same while the larger print, first print has been skyrocketing.

 

Case of price manipulation? Case of speculating on a book with the premise of rarity, with the print run being in the hands of a select few?

 

Who knows.

 

Perhaps people would rather put their cash into ASM 300, instead of a reprint with an albeit cool cover?

[Petey's Wheatcake]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

What many of you consider to be a large print run, isn't.

 

The real question is, what do YOU consider to be a large print run? Let's get specific.

 

Aside from the monsters (Spiderman, X-Force, X-Men) there weren't many titles that had million+ print runs, even for specific issues, up through 1992.

 

The vast, vast majority of books...until 1993...still had print runs in the 200-400k territory.

 

Yes, if we are talking about 10 million copies, that changes things. The print run on Legends #3 isn't high enough to matter if things play out the way they repeatedly have these last few years.

 

Do you know what the print run for Legends #3 is?

 

Cap City orders have a number of 45,150, against Superman #1 orders of 91,650. (And MOS #1 numbers of 175,000+)

 

Remember...these numbers took DC over Marvel in sales for the first time since 1971. They are gargantuan numbers....for the time period/

 

Legends #3 was right about in the middle of where Crisis numbers were at...in fact, it beats most of them. And, remember....in 1986, the newsstand was still a force to be reckoned with, with still as much as 40% of all sales in comics. So, Legends #3 probably sold in the neighborhood of 300,000 total copies. Nothing to sneeze at. From the Cap City numbers, it looks like Legends may have been more successful even than Crisis.

 

So, no, Legends #3 is not going to be rare, even in 9.8.

 

PS. X-Factor #6? Cap City orders of 47,200....or just a shade more than Legends #3.

 

 

I've said very clearly, from my very first reply, that both supply and demand matter. However, I'm willing to buy up books with a higher print run when I see that demand is there.

 

Premised, of course, on what you perceive to be higher print run, rather than what actually has a high print run, as shown by ASM #361.

 

I have a quick moment to reply, so I'll choose the shortest post.

 

Based on your numbers, would ASM #361 not have had a print run greater than that of Legends #3? Wasn't 68,000 only 15-20% of the estimated run? Like I said, I'm short on time so I may have completely misread that, and I'll have to double check tomorrow.

 

Either way, you can see from my previous posts that even if both issues sold 500,000 copies it would not alter my assertion that the demand will be greater than the supply for Legends #3 if people start to speculate that this film can achieve Guardians level success.

 

I'm almost certain that it won't, but that also doesn't matter in the least. This book will initially peak prior to the film's opening anyway. However, if it is a decent success, then current prices are as cheap as they will ever again be until the collapse of Western civilization.

 

I know some will disagree with this, and I'm interested in hearing their opposing points of view. Discussing these topics makes posting fun. Once again though, I want to elaborate and say that there is no available supply that is greater than a character's breakthrough into our pop culture.

 

For instance, if 800,000 copies were printed of Tony Stark's first appearance in 1988, there would not be enough supply to meet demand(my own fantasy scenario, cuz I realize they are fun). There is no key with a print run large enough to have a negative impact.

 

So much more to reply to:

 

I specifically mentioned Showcase #4 because we've discussed in previous threads how the more popular character, with the greater demand for their first appearance, won out. Once again, that's not going to change for anything other than the rare sale here or there. Overall, AF #15 will always be the top Silver key from now until the Second Coming.

 

It seems that I write so slowly that I've run out of time already. Thanks again for the discussion!

[FlyingDonut]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

 

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

While I agree with nearly everything you've written here, one small quibble - GSXM 1 was selling for much more than that in 1978 routinely at conventions. It popped in the summer. Although by "much more" I mean about $15.

[Zack1973]

Everyone here is forgetting the MVS factor for Hulk 181 - there are a ton of incomplete issues out there, add this and the print run doesn't matter. High grade numbers are less common then any copper issues, and the only relate-able issue would be Amazing Spider-man 238 with tattoos removed.

 

Wolverine's first full appearance is non comparable to Legends 3, Spider-man 300 and 361 not even close.

 

Just my 2cents

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

 

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

While I agree with nearly everything you've written here, one small quibble - GSXM 1 was selling for much more than that in 1978 routinely at conventions. It popped in the summer. Although by "much more" I mean about $15.

 

Yeah, as I said to Logan later on (and in other threads) that summer was when it really started to catch on, keeping in mind that the 1978 OPG was completed in Jan-Feb of that year. Still, $15 was pretty impressive at a time when new books were 35 cents.

 

But how to explain the OPG prices all the way up to 1980?

[FlyingDonut]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

The OPG may have had GSXM #1 at that price, but I can assure you it was selling for more than that in 1978. It wasn't even a $75 book yet, but it certainly was more than $1.80.

 

I guess that depends on how much more you're talking about. I suspect it wouldn't have been hard at all to find a copy for $2 at that year's SDCC, or Chicago.

 

1978 was a big year for the X-Men, their breakout year, when people started to take notice of the NEW X-Men.

 

But...in the 1979 OPG, GSXM #1 was only $3.75.

 

And by 1980 OPG, it was $9.00.

 

And this is when the OPG was pretty close to the market, as small as it was.

 

Was OPG slow on the uptake...? Oh, sure, it always has been, even when it was as close to the market as it was then. But two YEARS slow...?

 

1980 was the madness year for X-Men back issues...and, it was reflected in the 1981 OPG, when the book made the leap from $9 to $60, with all the rest following suit. Dark Phoenix was BIG. BIG BIG BIG.

 

But 1978...? Not so much.

 

I had a table at the 1978 Chicago show - we sold all of our New (yes, we filed them under "N") for five and six times Overstreet. We were buying the books from other dealers and flipping them - 13 year olds can get away with it.

[FlyingDonut]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

 

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

While I agree with nearly everything you've written here, one small quibble - GSXM 1 was selling for much more than that in 1978 routinely at conventions. It popped in the summer. Although by "much more" I mean about $15.

 

Yeah, as I said to Logan later on (and in other threads) that summer was when it really started to catch on. Still, $15 was pretty impressive at a time when new books were 35 cents.

 

But how to explain the OPG prices all the way up to 1980?

 

That I don't know - the end of the 1970s didn't show a whole lot of jumping in prices, which is surprising in hindsight, given both inflation and the huge jump in 1980-81. I can tell you that I made a lot of money as a high school student flipping X-Men books at shows in the Chicago area.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

The OPG may have had GSXM #1 at that price, but I can assure you it was selling for more than that in 1978. It wasn't even a $75 book yet, but it certainly was more than $1.80.

 

I guess that depends on how much more you're talking about. I suspect it wouldn't have been hard at all to find a copy for $2 at that year's SDCC, or Chicago.

 

1978 was a big year for the X-Men, their breakout year, when people started to take notice of the NEW X-Men.

 

But...in the 1979 OPG, GSXM #1 was only $3.75.

 

And by 1980 OPG, it was $9.00.

 

And this is when the OPG was pretty close to the market, as small as it was.

 

Was OPG slow on the uptake...? Oh, sure, it always has been, even when it was as close to the market as it was then. But two YEARS slow...?

 

1980 was the madness year for X-Men back issues...and, it was reflected in the 1981 OPG, when the book made the leap from $9 to $60, with all the rest following suit. Dark Phoenix was BIG. BIG BIG BIG.

 

But 1978...? Not so much.

 

I had a table at the 1978 Chicago show - we sold all of our New (yes, we filed them under "N") for five and six times Overstreet. We were buying the books from other dealers and flipping them - 13 year olds can get away with it.

 

Well, I dunno how trustworthy your memory is...you're certainly no Gary Colabuono...

 

 

 

 

[FlyingDonut]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

The OPG may have had GSXM #1 at that price, but I can assure you it was selling for more than that in 1978. It wasn't even a $75 book yet, but it certainly was more than $1.80.

 

I guess that depends on how much more you're talking about. I suspect it wouldn't have been hard at all to find a copy for $2 at that year's SDCC, or Chicago.

 

1978 was a big year for the X-Men, their breakout year, when people started to take notice of the NEW X-Men.

 

But...in the 1979 OPG, GSXM #1 was only $3.75.

 

And by 1980 OPG, it was $9.00.

 

And this is when the OPG was pretty close to the market, as small as it was.

 

Was OPG slow on the uptake...? Oh, sure, it always has been, even when it was as close to the market as it was then. But two YEARS slow...?

 

1980 was the madness year for X-Men back issues...and, it was reflected in the 1981 OPG, when the book made the leap from $9 to $60, with all the rest following suit. Dark Phoenix was BIG. BIG BIG BIG.

 

But 1978...? Not so much.

 

I had a table at the 1978 Chicago show - we sold all of our New (yes, we filed them under "N") for five and six times Overstreet. We were buying the books from other dealers and flipping them - 13 year olds can get away with it.

 

Well, I dunno how trustworthy your memory is...you're certainly no Gary Colabuono...

 

 

 

 

He was my LCS, if that counts.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

 

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

While I agree with nearly everything you've written here, one small quibble - GSXM 1 was selling for much more than that in 1978 routinely at conventions. It popped in the summer. Although by "much more" I mean about $15.

 

Yeah, as I said to Logan later on (and in other threads) that summer was when it really started to catch on. Still, $15 was pretty impressive at a time when new books were 35 cents.

 

But how to explain the OPG prices all the way up to 1980?

 

That I don't know - the end of the 1970s didn't show a whole lot of jumping in prices, which is surprising in hindsight, given both inflation and the huge jump in 1980-81. I can tell you that I made a lot of money as a high school student flipping X-Men books at shows in the Chicago area.

 

THooooose were the days....

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

The OPG may have had GSXM #1 at that price, but I can assure you it was selling for more than that in 1978. It wasn't even a $75 book yet, but it certainly was more than $1.80.

 

I guess that depends on how much more you're talking about. I suspect it wouldn't have been hard at all to find a copy for $2 at that year's SDCC, or Chicago.

 

1978 was a big year for the X-Men, their breakout year, when people started to take notice of the NEW X-Men.

 

But...in the 1979 OPG, GSXM #1 was only $3.75.

 

And by 1980 OPG, it was $9.00.

 

And this is when the OPG was pretty close to the market, as small as it was.

 

Was OPG slow on the uptake...? Oh, sure, it always has been, even when it was as close to the market as it was then. But two YEARS slow...?

 

1980 was the madness year for X-Men back issues...and, it was reflected in the 1981 OPG, when the book made the leap from $9 to $60, with all the rest following suit. Dark Phoenix was BIG. BIG BIG BIG.

 

But 1978...? Not so much.

 

I had a table at the 1978 Chicago show - we sold all of our New (yes, we filed them under "N") for five and six times Overstreet. We were buying the books from other dealers and flipping them - 13 year olds can get away with it.

 

Well, I dunno how trustworthy your memory is...you're certainly no Gary Colabuono...

 

 

 

 

He was my LCS, if that counts.

 

I'm going to try and set up a time to interview him (if he's willing) at R2D2 this year, if it all works together. I hope so. It would be awesome.