Copper's Heating/Selling Well on Ebay 33 33

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

No, they are so expensive because they are first appearances and the major keys of their time.

 

Right. Tastes great, less filling.

 

 

Because, as everyone knows, if there were 10 million copies of Hulk #181 floating around, it would still sell for $X,XXX in 9.X grades.

 

Right...?

 

Kevin76 is correct on this one. Demand is significantly more important than print run.

 

 

I see. So, supply is significantly less important than demand.

 

Interesting.

 

No, it is BOTH supply AND demand that determine value. Anyone...like you, and Kevin76...trying to claim that demand is more important than supply...or vice versa...doesn't have the whole picture, and is going to come to faulty conclusions.

 

Spider-Man #1 is not comparable to Incredible Hulk #181.

 

You are quite correct...they are not.

 

 

 

When it comes to comic books, demand is the driving force behind all the major keys. It's the reason Marvels sell for more than DCs. It's the reason Spider-Man, even higher print run Bronze and Copper Spidey, sells for significantly more than lower print run but less desirable books from the same time period.

 

I never said that demand was everything. In fact, I specifically mentioned fantasy scenarios like your "10 million copies of Hulk #181" changing the whole discussion. We don't live in that particular alternate universe though. In ours, an above average print run has very little impact on sales when the demand is high enough.

 

For instance, double the print run on Hulk #181, and it would still be a top ten Bronze key. The demand is simply too great.

 

I feel like you are punking me with this debate. There is a mountain of evidence which clearly demonstrates that unless we extend the parameters of the discussion to extreme degrees(35 cent price variants or some similar scenario where we are comparing 100 copies to 400,000 copies), demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community. Amazing Spider-Man #300, #361, et al., have proven this time and time again. I pre-ordered 100 copies of Amazing #361 back in the day. My grandmother saw that one coming(admittedly, she's always been market savvy), but back issue prices seem to be doing just fine.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

I said as long as there is demand for the book, try understanding what you've read.

There is no demand for a Spider-Man 1 or an X-Men 1

 

Really? There's no demand for Todd McFarlane's Spiderman #1...?

 

 

Fascinating!

 

 

Okay, I agree with your sarcasm on this, but Spider-Man #1 is certainly not comparable with an important first appearance. I think this is what threw me in your original response to Kevin76. It's simply too much of a reach.

[the authority]

I hope this helps.

 

http://www.sophia.org/tutorials/economic-basics-supply-and-demand

[RockMyAmadeus]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

[telerites]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

This is where you are missing the truth which is right in front of you.

 

Sometimes you have to throw out the manual and use common sense. You are a great proponent of logic and reason, so forget what you think is the right thing to say, and use those tools.

 

I've sold many a Spawn #1 for more than cover price. Why? Not with that print run, right? I made a nice, conservative profit on a book that should not have risen in price based on the old chestnut you are trotting out.

 

Of course supply and demand should both be taken into consideration, but when you see a familiar pattern repeating itself again and again under certain circumstances, I suggest trusting the evidence frequently laid out before you.

 

I still think that Amazing Spider-Man #361 is an excellent example. Plenty of copies, but demand has driven movement on the price. To be honest, maybe Legends #3 is an even better example. Time will tell(although at current prices, we've already been told quite a bit).

 

 

[Mike's Rack]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand.

I agree with most everything that has been said. However, as we define supply, there are other factors to consider besides simply print run. A couple of those factor are market bottleneck (how long does it take to get that supply to market) and who controls the supply (dealers, speculators, collectors, others?). These will both influence prices in the short and long term and affect what is the true supply- that being the supply available in the market.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

What many of you consider to be a large print run, isn't.

 

Yes, if we are talking about 10 million copies, that changes things. The print run on Legends #3 isn't high enough to matter if things play out the way they repeatedly have these last few years.

 

I've said very clearly, from my very first reply, that both supply and demand matter. However, I'm willing to buy up books with a higher print run when I see that demand is there.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

I said as long as there is demand for the book, try understanding what you've read.

There is no demand for a Spider-Man 1 or an X-Men 1

 

Really? There's no demand for Todd McFarlane's Spiderman #1...?

 

 

Fascinating!

 

 

Okay, I agree with your sarcasm on this, but Spider-Man #1 is certainly not comparable with an important first appearance. I think this is what threw me in your original response to Kevin76. It's simply too much of a reach.

 

That wasn't the point I was making (that it was comparable in importance.)

 

The point is that, if Spiderman #1. which was the single highest selling comic book of 1990 (and, indeed, up to that point in the modern era), had a print run the same as Amazing Spiderman #300, it, too, would be a $XXX book. Spiderman #1 is a first issue Spiderman by the most popular artist to draw the character of all time. It is not without its merits.

 

Contrary to Kevin's assertion that there is "no demand for Spiderman #1 or X-Men #1", there is tremendous demand for both of these books.

 

There were 47 sales in the Copper section of Comics on eBay in the last month of X-Men #1, in various flavors, and 35 in the modern, using "X-Men #1 Lee" as the search string. Actually sold!

 

There were 35+ "Spiderman #1 McFarlane" in all flavors, sold in the last two months, and when "McFarlane" is taken out, the number goes higher.

 

There were 83 sales of Hulk #181, in all grades, in the last month on eBay.

 

In other words....there were as many sales of X-Men #1 as there were Hulk #181 on eBay in the last month.

 

The problem is, of course, that there are 8 million+ copies of X-Men #1 floating around, so the price isn't going to be high. But it would be a great mistake to claim there is "no demand" for those books.

 

By contrast, there is no demand for Rom #36, which had two sales in the last three months.

 

And, I'll point out again...both Hulk #181 and GSXM #1 were not considered "important first appearance issues" until well after they were produced...and NM #98 and BA #12 were ignored for literal decades.

 

No, there is substantial demand for all of these books...but the supply is what determines their disparate values. Lots of demand + not as much supply = higher prices.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

So how do you explain #361?

[Jimmy Linguini]

Asm 300 Chrome seems to have stayed the same while the regular higher print run asm 300 has skyrocketed as of recent. Weird.

 

There is no ASM 300 chromium. It's called Marvel Collectible Classics Amazing Spider-Man #1

 

and wasn't that for the longest time, worth more than a regular ASM 300?

 

I just think its weird that there has been no price correction for the ASM "chrome 300" - its pretty much stayed the same while the larger print, first print has been skyrocketing.

 

Case of price manipulation? Case of speculating on a book with the premise of rarity, with the print run being in the hands of a select few?

 

Who knows.

[RockMyAmadeus]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

This is where you are missing the truth which is right in front of you.

 

 

 

I suppose. Anything's possible.

 

Sometimes you have to throw out the manual and use common sense. You are a great proponent of logic and reason, so forget what you think is the right thing to say, and use those tools.

 

 

Ok. I'll give it my best shot!

 

I've sold many a Spawn #1 for more than cover price. Why? Not with that print run, right? I made a nice, conservative profit on a book that should not have risen in price based on the old chestnut you are trotting out.

 

Says WHO? According to WHO? If the demand is there, it will go up in price! It doesn't matter if the print run is 10 gajillion, if 11 gajillion people WANT it, it rises in PRICE!

 

 

Where did you get the idea that I said anything about a "high print run" = "no value"?

 

It is supply AND demand. Conversely, and also true, it is demand AND supply!

 

They both work TOGETHER, because they are two sides of the same coin.

 

Of course supply and demand should both be taken into consideration, but when you see a familiar pattern repeating itself again and again under certain circumstances, I suggest trusting the evidence frequently laid out before you.

 

Which is........? You haven't made any point here.

 

I still think that Amazing Spider-Man #361 is an excellent example. Plenty of copies, but demand has driven movement on the price. To be honest, maybe Legends #3 is an even better example. Time will tell(although at current prices, we've already been told quite a bit).

 

 

What do you mean, "plenty of copies"? According to who? Relative to what? The market disagrees, which is why the price has risen.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So how do you explain #361?

 

Demand exceeding supply.

 

Are people printing copies in their basement? Is Marvel still printing them? The demand has exceeded the supply, and thus, the price rises.

 

This isn't rocket surgery.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

I said as long as there is demand for the book, try understanding what you've read.

There is no demand for a Spider-Man 1 or an X-Men 1

 

Really? There's no demand for Todd McFarlane's Spiderman #1...?

 

 

Fascinating!

 

 

Okay, I agree with your sarcasm on this, but Spider-Man #1 is certainly not comparable with an important first appearance. I think this is what threw me in your original response to Kevin76. It's simply too much of a reach.

 

That wasn't the point I was making (that it was comparable in importance.)

 

The point is that, if Spiderman #1. which was the single highest selling comic book of 1990 (and, indeed, up to that point in the modern era), had a print run the same as Amazing Spiderman #300, it, too, would be a $XXX book. Spiderman #1 is a first issue Spiderman by the most popular artist to draw the character of all time. It is not without its merits.

 

Contrary to Kevin's assertion that there is "no demand for Spiderman #1 or X-Men #1", there is tremendous demand for both of these books.

 

There were 47 sales in the Copper section of Comics on eBay in the last month of X-Men #1, in various flavors, and 35 in the modern, using "X-Men #1 Lee" as the search string. Actually sold!

 

There were 35+ "Spiderman #1 McFarlane" in all flavors, sold in the last two months, and when "McFarlane" is taken out, the number goes higher.

 

There were 83 sales of Hulk #181, in all grades, in the last month on eBay.

 

In other words....there were as many sales of X-Men #1 as there were Hulk #181 on eBay in the last month.

 

The problem is, of course, that there are 8 million+ copies of X-Men #1 floating around, so the price isn't going to be high. But it would be a great mistake to claim there is "no demand" for those books.

 

By contrast, there is no demand for Rom #36, which had two sales in the last three months.

 

And, I'll point out again...both Hulk #181 and GSXM #1 were not considered "important first appearance issues" until well after they were produced...and NM #98 and BA #12 were ignored for literal decades.

 

No, there is substantial demand for all of these books...but the supply is what determines their disparate values. Lots of demand + not as much supply = higher prices.

 

I think we simply disagree on our thoughts regarding what makes a comic valuable. I'm always going to choose Amazing Fantasy #15 over Showcase #4 because the demand is so much greater. I love Showcase #4, but I'm strictly talking about $$$ here.

 

You don't agree that an 800,000 print run Hulk #181 would sell for all kinds of crazy cash? That print run wouldn't stop it because the demand is there.

[RockMyAmadeus]

demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community.

 

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist.

 

Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me.

 

RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand.

I agree with most everything that has been said. However, as we define supply, there are other factors to consider besides simply print run. A couple of those factor are market bottleneck (how long does it take to get that supply to market) and who controls the supply (dealers, speculators, collectors, others?). These will both influence prices in the short and long term and affect what is the true supply- that being the supply available in the market.

 

Yes, when you're dealing with tangible goods, it is the available supply that determines price according to demand. And this is where a lot of people make a lot of money. Diamonds are filthy common, they're the street rats of fine gems, but the market for them is very tightly controlled, which is why you have to pay $2,000 for a nice 1 carat solitaire.

 

It should be understand, when discussing supply and demand with regards to tangible goods, that it always means the available supply. Unavailable supply has no effect, by definition.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

So how do you explain #361?

 

Demand exceeding supply.

 

Are people printing copies in their basement? Is Marvel still printing them? The demand has exceeded the supply, and thus, the price rises.

 

This isn't rocket surgery.

 

Exactly what I'm telling you. So you are basically proving my point now.

 

Because if that print run doesn't change things, then it certainly won't in regard to Legends #3.

[slym2none]

So, are there any Copper books heating up or selling well on eBay right now?

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Logan510]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, print runs are overrated as long as the demand is there, Don't believe me? ASM 300, NM98, Hulk 181, GS X-Men 1, BA 12. No matter how many of them there are, people will continue to hunt for big 1st appearances, X-Factor 6 is showing no signs of slowing down. For a book that is "common" they certainly aren't readily available on the cheap.

 

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not.

 

X-Force #2 had an average print run for its time period as well........

 

 

X-Force #2 didn't have an average print run at all. It was the 4th highest selling book of all of 1991, after X-Men #1, X-Force #1, and Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1. But you knew that.

 

I think his point was that despite ample supply books will still run up in value. I have to agree with that.

 

I understand his point, and it's still inaccurate. The books he cited all had print runs in the 200-400k range...not the million+ range (and for BA #12, even lower...the Cap City orders for that book were 19,200! )

 

Add to that, the fact that most of them were ignored for years, sometimes decades, after they came out, and attrition took its toll. The OPG for GSXM #1 in 1978? $1.80.

That is why they have value. Hulk #181 may appear to be ubiquitous, but it's not any more common than any other book of its era, and certainly LESS common than, say, the average Amazing Spiderman from the same period. I know that may not make sense intuitively, because we see Hulk #181 everywhere...but that's only because the demand is crazy.

 

 

The OPG may have had GSXM #1 at that price, but I can assure you it was selling for more than that in 1978. It wasn't even a $75 book yet, but it certainly was more than $1.80.

[the authority]

I guess it depends on what your LCS practices. I bought a Preacher #1 in 9.6 (graded by CGC after my purchase) for $14.40 last year. They had an 80% of guide sale on back issues. The 2 big LCS' here still use Overstreet as far I know.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think we simply disagree on our thoughts regarding what makes a comic valuable.

 

What makes a comic valuable is: supply and demand.

 

I'm always going to choose Amazing Fantasy #15 over Showcase #4 because the demand is so much greater. I love Showcase #4, but I'm strictly talking about $$$ here.

 

That's the case now. Will it always be the case? Maybe, maybe not. It wasn't the case in the early 70's, that's for sure.

 

You don't agree that an 800,000 print run Hulk #181 would sell for all kinds of crazy cash? That print run wouldn't stop it because the demand is there.

 

What does "crazy cash" mean, as you define it? Would it sell for what it sells for now? Obviously not, or the laws of economics have no meaning. The demand is clearly there. With an 8 MILLION print run, the demand probably wouldn't be satisfied. But at some point, it would be, and the market would reach equilibrium. This should go without saying, but not everyone in the world wants a copy of Hulk #181.