Am I the only one that noticed this Superman #149 9.6 that sold for 22 x guide?!

[PovertyRow]

Hey! See what plagiarism does to you? Now go back and fix those quotes in the message above this one!

[PovertyRow]

yeah... JC allows that the earliest SA Marvels (pre-1963) are harder to find in HG. But finds it inconceivable that DCs from 1956 to 1961 ( widely considered BEFORE the beginning of the organized groundswell of comics collecting) and then 1961 tp 1963 are scarce in HG...

 

I'm only saying that anyone using the terms RARE and SCARCE concerning any 1960's pop collectible should be laughed off the stage. Those are terms with real meaning and usage in the antique and collectible fields, and aren't just tossed around.

 

You'll notice that Donut was very careful in the terms he used, and as such, I don't disagree with his sentiments.

 

I think the terms CAN be used if applied to AVAILABILITY. Who KNOWS how many HG DC SA are in, and have been, with collectors who have absolutely no intention of selling them? So I can be comfortable with Rare and Scarce is applied to the number of available books at a given time.

[underthebigw]

Like many collectors, the owner typified the first true collectors of the 1960's. Marvel might have had more fans, but there were definitely more true collectors of DC books in the 1960's. If you were 30 or 40 or 50 years old at this time, what would you collect--the characters of your youth or some goofy Marvel "Pop-Art" Production? And many of these collections have still never changed hands. I think it's fair to say we really have no idea how many early Silver DC HG books are out there. [/quote

 

thats a good point. Im not old enough to be in the category you are talking about. But, I was young in the 50s and weaned on Superman and Batman etc. And all through the 60s I was still basically a DC guy. I read and collected the Marvels each week, and really liked Spidey, FF and th ereat, but slowly tired of them while still buying each new issue. I always stayed a DC fan at heart.

 

But having said that, I dont agree that this means I collected my DCs in any better shape than my Marvels. Back then we didnt think that way. Perhaps were I ten years older as you describe, in my 20s or 30s in 1956, I would have read them once carefully and stored them well as I myself have done as I got older in the 70s and 80s.

 

But again for your argument to work, that there are a LOT of these guys back then doing this, well, I dunno. I dont think there were all that many 30 year old comic collectors in 1960.... do you? Maybe they were the same teenagers who quit reading comics in the 50s after the Senate hearings led to the death of all "interesting/non-kid's funny books" comics - - and came back to comics as the superheroes came back. That might work!

 

I'm not so much talking about someone buying an off the stand book in 1960 pr 1956 but, say a 30 year old collecting in 1969 and buying the highest grade DC issues he could find from 1956. There have got to be 10's of 1000's of collections from the late 60's and early 70's that have never changed hands. Do I think there are 1000's of every DC issue in 9.4+. No way. But to call them scarce simply because they are not in the census is also unrealistic. I just have to disagree with FD on this one. I can't believe there aren't 100's of people like Burntboy and this guy in Virginia out there who just haven't found the right motivation to part with their collections yet.

 

That said, it would be interesting for us to pick a mix of key and non-key issues from this period and make a concerted effort to see how many 9.2 or better (slabbed or raw) issues could be found, or at least accounted for, in 5 years time. I've got to believe that, with the connections everyone here has, we could get an interesting answer one way of the another. I'm very serious here--nothing like a little bit of dorky research. We might even get collectors to be responsive if we ensure confidentiality. And maybe certain publishers would help provide us with some publicity in order to get a reasonable answer to this question.

[Aman619]

Like many collectors, the owner typified the first true collectors of the 1960's. Marvel might have had more fans, but there were definitely more true collectors of DC books in the 1960's. If you were 30 or 40 or 50 years old at this time, what would you collect--the characters of your youth or some goofy Marvel "Pop-Art" Production? And many of these collections have still never changed hands. I think it's fair to say we really have no idea how many early Silver DC HG books are out there. [/quote

 

thats a good point. Im not old enough to be in the category you are talking about. But, I was young in the 50s and weaned on Superman and Batman etc. And all through the 60s I was still basically a DC guy. I read and collected the Marvels each week, and really liked Spidey, FF and th ereat, but slowly tired of them while still buying each new issue. I always stayed a DC fan at heart.

 

But having said that, I dont agree that this means I collected my DCs in any better shape than my Marvels. Back then we didnt think that way. Perhaps were I ten years older as you describe, in my 20s or 30s in 1956, I would have read them once carefully and stored them well as I myself have done as I got older in the 70s and 80s.

 

But again for your argument to work, that there are a LOT of these guys back then doing this, well, I dunno. I dont think there were all that many 30 year old comic collectors in 1960.... do you? Maybe they were the same teenagers who quit reading comics in the 50s after the Senate hearings led to the death of all "interesting/non-kid's funny books" comics - - and came back to comics as the superheroes came back. That might work!

 

I'm not so much talking about someone buying an off the stand book in 1960 pr 1956 but, say a 30 year old collecting in 1969 and buying the highest grade DC issues he could find from 1956. There have got to be 10's of 1000's of collections from the late 60's and early 70's that have never changed hands. Do I think there are 1000's of every DC issue in 9.4+. No way. But to call them scarce simply because they are not in the census is also unrealistic. I just have to disagree with FD on this one. I can't believe there aren't 100's of people like Burntboy and this guy in Virginia out there who just haven't found the right motivation to part with their collections yet.

 

That said, it would be interesting for us to pick a mix of key and non-key issues from this period and make a concerted effort to see how many 9.2 or better (slabbed or raw) issues could be found, or at least accounted for, in 5 years time. I've got to believe that, with the connections everyone here has, we could get an interesting answer one way of the another. I'm very serious here--nothing like a little bit of dorky research. We might even get collectors to be responsive if we ensure confidentiality. And maybe certain publishers would help provide us with some publicity in order to get a reasonable answer to this question.

 

but that concerted effort was exactly what FD (or ttff) stated earlier: he, me and many others have systematicaly built up our DC collections for 15 years or longer now, buying the highest grade issues we could find. And - - guess what? The ones we bought were, 9 times out of 10, 8,0s, and 8,5s AT BEST. THEY STILL dont show up for sale often (Id say RAREly but rare and scarce are turning out to be divisive words here.

 

also - - -you said that these collectors would seek out back issues in 1969. But, back in 1969 there was NOWHERE TO BUY THEM. Just Rogofsky and a few magazine stores in NY and LA. No comic book stores. We actually got back issues from barbershops! except they were coverless.

 

anyway... nobody is calling them scarce just because they arent showing up in the census. They are considered scarce because the census is now "proving" how tough they are to find.

[underthebigw]

That said, it would be interesting for us to pick a mix of key and non-key issues from this period and make a concerted effort to see how many 9.2 or better (slabbed or raw) issues could be found, or at least accounted for, in 5 years time. I've got to believe that, with the connections everyone here has, we could get an interesting answer one way of the another. I'm very serious here--nothing like a little bit of dorky research. We might even get collectors to be responsive if we ensure confidentiality. And maybe certain publishers would help provide us with some publicity in order to get a reasonable answer to this question.

 

but that concerted effort was exactly what FD (or ttff) stated earlier: he, me and many others have systematicaly built up our DC collections for 15 years or longer now, buying the highest grade issues we could find. And - - guess what? The ones we bought were, 9 times out of 10, 8,0s, and 8,5s AT BEST. THEY STILL dont show up for sale often (Id say RAREly but rare and scarce are turning out to be divisive words here.

 

also - - -you said that these collectors would seek out back issues in 1969. But, back in 1969 there was NOWHERE TO BUY THEM. Just Rogofsky and a few magazine stores in NY and LA. No comic book stores. We actually got back issues from barbershops! except they were coverless.

 

anyway... nobody is calling them scarce just because they arent showing up in the census. They are considered scarce because the census is now "proving" how tough they are to find.

 

I suppose I wasn't clear--what I was proposing was exactly the opposite of trying to only find books from this period that are available. We've all done that and met with sporadic success. I think we all agree that there are very few HG DC's from this period on the market. Instead, what I meant was that we try to publicly survey collectors and dealers and see what is privately held. You, FD and everyone else could easily be correct. Or we might find surprising amounts of HG books locked into collections because owners feel they couldn't replace them easily or just don't want to part with sentimental favorites, thereby proving JC and I correct.

 

Secondly, I have to argue with your definition of scarce. Your argument about the census is circular. Anyone involved in statistical sampling or polling could enumerate a number of reasons why the census might not be an accurate measure of the rarity of these books. It's inherently biased and selective. Then again it might be (although that's not my hunch) accurate. That's why I was proposing the forums take it upon themselves to try to answer this question.

 

And, while it's not my favorite period of DC's, I have my share of HG books from this period (more from later on in the 60's, but still some). If I ever saw the right book at the right price, I grabbed it. (For instance, I picked up gorgeous Batman Annuals 2-4 from that guy in VA-that's all I could afford) So, I'm not unfamiliar with this period, it's just not an area of concentration for me and holds little sentimental value for me.

[Aman619]

I agree that these collectors exist...just not all that many. And the percentage of these hidden collections in Pedigree worthy grades will be smaller still. As to your HG books as well as mine, I also keep saying look at them again closely right now! And tell me honestly what grade CGC (and now the rest of us) would give them.

 

Nobody is saying DCs or Marvels or Charltons or Archies from this period are rare, scarce or even hard to find. They're plentiful. But in grades less than 8.0. However - - in the final analysis 9.2s and 9.4s will come up far fewer than early Marvels.

 

It WOULD be great to see lists of what all of us have UNGRADED.

Id love to see THAT census data!

[shadroch]

Keep in mind that about 95% of issues were less than 9.4 by the time they got to the racks,then were mostly passed around and read repeatedly,it is unrealistic to think there might be thousands of NM books sitting in collections. The vast majority of NM Marvels from this era are warehoused books,not original owner books.For some reason,the early hoarders of Marvel didn't seem to stockpile DCs in any sort of quantity.Perhaps because Marvel books were distributed by DC,they were more often shunted aside and pilfered, while DCs were put thru the system.

When I started collecting in 1973,comic stores were almost non-existant,and at Phil Seulings shows,I'd say 75% of back issues for sale were Marvels,10% were ECs and less than 5% were Silver age DCs.In all my years of collecting,I don't ever recall seeing a dealer set up with multiple copies of uncirculated early DCs.Bob Bell,Joe Koch,Exciting Times in Cali and a few others seemed to always have boxes and boxes of brand new Marvels.

After about five years of trying to collect VF early Legions(pre Adventure347),I've decided to just buy the Archives instead.

[joe_collector]

Keep in mind that about 95% of issues were less than 9.4 by the time they got to the racks

 

Where do you get these numbers?

 

Some of the highest-grade books come from warehouse finds, and these were put on the rack, then boxed up, and sent back to the distributor. Tons of those are still NM or higher.

 

Or look at Pedigree collections bought off the newstand, where the average grade is NM or higher. Those numbers just don't add up.

[sfilosa]

With regards to the CENSUS, it's much better at this time to use it as a TOOL of what IS and ISN'T available in the MARKETPLACE.

 

Basically, if a book is in the hands of a long-term collector, and will only be sold when he dies, then it's UNAVAILABLE. Therefore, the book IS SCARCE in the Marketplace.

 

That's what SCARCE / RARE mean since THERE IS NO WAY to determine how many copies of a certain book are in hidden away in people's attics, basements, etc.

 

In the past ten years, there have been at least 20 significant pedigree finds, and there is no telling how many more are out there (ZERO, TEN, HUNDRED, etc.)

[shadroch]

Keep in mind that about 95% of issues were less than 9.4 by the time they got to the racks

 

Where do you get these numbers?

 

Some of the highest-grade books come from warehouse finds, and these were put on the rack, then boxed up, and sent back to the distributor. Tons of those are still NM or higher.

 

Or look at Pedigree collections bought off the newstand, where the average grade is NM or higher. Those numbers just don't add up.

 

Warehouse finds are what,in your lil world? In everyone elses,warehouse finds are books that were never sent to stores,never returned,never sent back anywhere. Comics were not returned to distributors,the top of the front cover was,the rest were destroyed.In the last 30 years of collecting,out of thousands of collections that have surfaced,how many have been true pedigrees and how many had mostly NM books? A dozen,two dozen? The bottom line is that the vast majority of Silver age readers were not anal retentive when it came to picking out the best copy available and then storing it pefectly.

Roughly half of the MH2 warehouse find was not in NM shape,and these were all books that never once left the warehouse. If you choose to believe that there are tons of NM books floating around out there,go for it.I have a neighbor who thinks he is Teddy Roosvelt,I got no problem with him either.

[joe_collector]

You're a insufficiently_thoughtful_person if you believe that all warehouse finds are from untouched, never distributed books.

[tth2]

If you choose to believe that there are tons of NM books floating around out there,go for it.I have a neighbor who thinks he is Teddy Roosvelt,I got no problem with him either.

 

[tth2]

You're a insufficiently_thoughtful_person if you believe that all warehouse finds are from untouched, never distributed books.

 

Joe, come on man, no need to descend into name calling.

[joe_collector]

If you choose to believe that there are tons of NM books floating around out there,go for it.I have a neighbor who thinks he is Teddy Roosvelt,I got no problem with him either.

 

 

Yeah, that is hilarious that people need to project the illusion of EXTREME RARITY on something as recent as 1960's comics. Nothing from that era, that was produced on a mass market basis, is RARE, or ever will be.

 

All it ever takes is time and collector attrition.

 

But of course, in another decade, the brain-addled speculators knee-deep in their "all early 60's DC comics are ULTRA RARE in NM" will have changed their tune, and put some other qualifier (probably 9.6 and above) to ensure it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

And so it goes......

 

Hulk 181 is ULTRA RARE too, if you are limit it to something ethereal like "CGC 9.8 and above".

[shadroch]

Jc,

Comics were not returned to distributors,only the tops were. They were called strips.The very definition of warehouse find means the books were undistributed.

Either you are being more obtuse than usual or you really don't know squat about this subject. Perhaps you should go out and work on the Panama Canal.

[joe_collector]

Comics were not returned to distributors,only the tops were. They were called strips.The very definition of warehouse find means the books were undistributed.

 

Tell me, what year is it where you are now? 1965?

[tth2]

Either you are being more obtuse than usual or you really don't know squat about this subject. Perhaps you should go out and work on the Panama Canal.

 

Shadroch, you`re killing me with the TR stuff! Bull Moose Party, baby!!!

[joe_collector]

Post deleted by joe_collector

[joe_collector]

Joe, come on man, no need to descend into name calling.

 

Eat me, needledick.

 

I used to work retail as an after-school job, and Shadroch's contention that 100% of ALL comic returns were done with "ripped tops" is hilarious, and belongs in the dark ages.

 

We used to pack them up in boxes, like any other magazine, and these books likely found their way into many a warehouse find.

[tth2]

Shadroch, you`re killing me with the TR stuff! Bull Moose Party, baby!!!

 

Man, the sure out in full force today, or you're just another shill for that needledick Shadroch. Add your two IQs together and I'd bet real money we don't reach double-figures.

 

Whatever, Ted-ster! Or maybe we should start calling you "Rough Rider", you big brute you!