Grading Question

[spidrvacc]

 

I have a comic i purchased graded 7.5 by CGC. I was going to post a scan but i cant scan it in the case without it becoming blurry. Anyway

 

The only defect is a stress line on the spine about 1 inch long ( non color breaking) looks like the comic had been bent. you can only see it when you hold it sideways and wouldnt show up in a scan anyway .

 

How does that bring a flawless book down to 7.5 just curious.

 

I plan on calling tomorrow to get the graders notes.

 

The corners are sharp , only that stress mark. Seems severe. I have a ASM 300 with numerous stress lines and its an 8.5

 

Book is Venom 1 lethal protector (Black error copy)

 

Thanks

[DiceX]

If the book was bent, I'd say that's a pretty serious flaw.

Visible or not.

 

Should it knock it down to a 7.5?

Get the grader's notes.

[DiceX]

I reread your post.

1" long stress because the book was bent?

I'd say 7.5 is a pretty good guess.

 

But you probably got it cheap.

Enjoy it.

[spidrvacc]

Here is the best I could so with a camera .

 

You can kinda see it below his right hand . Left of book.

 

Right above the UPC box and a very small one just to the left of the box.

 

Again very hard to pick up and see.

 

 

[spidrvacc]

 

Still to knock it down to a 7.5 . I will post what I get from the graders notes tomorrow. I would have graded it a 8.5 as it looks better then a few of the 8.5 & 9.0 i have . Maybe because its an error issue it graded more severe?

 

The stress mark does no show on back cover so I think it more stress than a bend.

 

Dont get me wrong I am not arguing with the CGC grading just tryng to understand how it got knocked down so low.

[DiceX]

I have a few books that were bent over and the wrinkle only shows on one side.

(Luckily mine are on the back side.)

 

The Overstreet Grading Guide lists a "Significant" 1 inch defect to be worth 8-10 points.

The highest grade that allows an 8 point defect is 7.5 (VF-).

I think the CGC grade was as generous as possible for the bend.

It must be very nice, aside from the single defect.

[spidrvacc]

 

Thank you

 

This is why i come here. I learn something .

 

So the highest grade it could get tecnincally is 7.5

 

I will still post the graders notes when I call tomorrow

 

Thanks again

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I may be going loopy, but where in the Grading Guide do we say anything about a "point" system for defects in the way you're describing?

 

Arnold

[DiceX]

*Stands at the podeum*

Everyone, please open your Overstreet Grading Guide and turn to page 128.

Look at the chart on the bottom..."Suggested Ranges of Measurement/Quantity"

 

"Considerable, Significant, Many, Accumulation...1" and up...Qty. of Defects = 8-10"

 

Now turn to page 127...

"No. of Defects = 8"

Now slide your finger over and tell me what the first grade that allows "8" defect points.

"VF-"

 

Arnold...I don't know if you are calling them "Points" technically.

That's what I call them.

I think it may be calling them "Defects".

But it's a SINGLE defect, so I call it "Points".

Tomato/Tomahto

[spidrvacc]

 

Got my grading book out and followed along.

 

I see what your talking about.

 

Kinda stinks that 1 defect would count as 10 when it is a defect you can barley see.

 

I know its the rule but if it was very visable I would say of course but this defect while about 1 inch is barley visible . I know a defect is a defect but if there is a stain on the back cover it is not looked at the same as a stain on the front cover .

I would think a color breaking stress/bend would be treated diferently than a non color breaking stress/crease . Seriously I couldnt find the defect for over 5 minutes of looking when I got the book and had to email the person I purchased from to ask where it was.

 

Again DiceX thanks for the lesson , very helpful for the future.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I see what you're talking about but I really think you're misinterpreting the information and intent. The suggested ranges is intended to provide some kind of quantitative definition for the many terms we use in describing a defect or accumulation of defects. So if I say a grade can include a "significant accumulation," say, the suggested ranges gives you a ballpark (but not a definitive range mind you) of 8-10 individual defects that might be present. And the chart is meant to indicate how many individual defects in general might be present in a given grade. These numbers are not points indicating severity of a defect, they are numbers indicating the total accumulation of *individual* defects that might be allowable in a given grade or that might be indicated by a given generic descriptive term.

 

Arnold

[spidrvacc]

 

Ok I spoke to a Grader and got the Grader Notes.

 

The 1 inch stress mark ( and tiny one below) arent the big defect

 

There is also a bend on the upper left Back cover that isnt really very visible but there and I do see it now. it is about 2 inches. hard to see in the cgc case.

 

 

 

It appears that that is what dropped it to VF- as the front stress line wasnt as big a deal .

 

I think it could have come in as 7.0 but it is a beautiful book with defects that can only be seen when you hold the book sideways and in the CGC case they are hard to see since the book is being pressed flat.

 

Thanks again for everyones help.

[DiceX]

I see what you're talking about but I really think you're misinterpreting the information and intent. The suggested ranges is intended to provide some kind of quantitative definition for the many terms we use in describing a defect or accumulation of defects. So if I say a grade can include a "significant accumulation," say, the suggested ranges gives you a ballpark (but not a definitive range mind you) of 8-10 individual defects that might be present. And the chart is meant to indicate how many individual defects in general might be present in a given grade. These numbers are not points indicating severity of a defect, they are numbers indicating the total accumulation of *individual* defects that might be allowable in a given grade or that might be indicated by a given generic descriptive term.

 

Arnold

 

So you're saying a 1" crease is graded the same as a "significant accumulation" of 1" creases (up to 8-10?)?

Or a single 1" crease is graded the same as a 1/4" crease?

 

I've read the book, cover to cover, at least 5 times.

I've read pages 126 through 129 at least 20 times.

I never understood it the way you are describing it.

The "secret forumula" is obscure at best.

 

Perhaps the next grading guide could be a little easier to understand.

When you guys do a "Grading for Dummies", maybe I can learn to grade too.

[FFB]

I see what you're talking about but I really think you're misinterpreting the information and intent. The suggested ranges is intended to provide some kind of quantitative definition for the many terms we use in describing a defect or accumulation of defects. So if I say a grade can include a "significant accumulation," say, the suggested ranges gives you a ballpark (but not a definitive range mind you) of 8-10 individual defects that might be present. And the chart is meant to indicate how many individual defects in general might be present in a given grade. These numbers are not points indicating severity of a defect, they are numbers indicating the total accumulation of *individual* defects that might be allowable in a given grade or that might be indicated by a given generic descriptive term.

 

Arnold

 

So you're saying a 1" crease is graded the same as a "significant accumulation" of 1" creases (up to 8-10?)?

Or a single 1" crease is graded the same as a 1/4" crease?

 

I've read the book, cover to cover, at least 5 times.

I've read pages 126 through 129 at least 20 times.

I never understood it the way you are describing it.

The "secret forumula" is obscure at best.

 

Perhaps the next grading guide could be a little easier to understand.

When you guys do a "Grading for Dummies", maybe I can learn to grade too.

 

You are misunderstanding the Good Book.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the SIZE of defects means that the defect is 1 inch long and bigger. For example: "The book has a significant corner crease in the lower left corner." This means that the book has a corner crease that is at least an inch long and maybe longer.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the QUANTITY of defects means that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 10 of those defects in the relevant grade. For example: "The book has considerable corner creases and significant edge chipping." This means that the book has between 8 and 10 corner creases and between 8 and 10 edge chips.

 

The words "many" and "accumulation" when used in relation to a defect mean that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 16 of those kinds of defects on a book in the relevant grade.

 

When used together, for example: "The book has an accumulation of significant creases." That means that the book has between 8 and 16 creases that are an inch long or longer.

[DiceX]

I see what you're talking about but I really think you're misinterpreting the information and intent. The suggested ranges is intended to provide some kind of quantitative definition for the many terms we use in describing a defect or accumulation of defects. So if I say a grade can include a "significant accumulation," say, the suggested ranges gives you a ballpark (but not a definitive range mind you) of 8-10 individual defects that might be present. And the chart is meant to indicate how many individual defects in general might be present in a given grade. These numbers are not points indicating severity of a defect, they are numbers indicating the total accumulation of *individual* defects that might be allowable in a given grade or that might be indicated by a given generic descriptive term.

 

Arnold

 

So you're saying a 1" crease is graded the same as a "significant accumulation" of 1" creases (up to 8-10?)?

Or a single 1" crease is graded the same as a 1/4" crease?

 

I've read the book, cover to cover, at least 5 times.

I've read pages 126 through 129 at least 20 times.

I never understood it the way you are describing it.

The "secret forumula" is obscure at best.

 

Perhaps the next grading guide could be a little easier to understand.

When you guys do a "Grading for Dummies", maybe I can learn to grade too.

 

You are misunderstanding the Good Book.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the SIZE of defects means that the defect is 1 inch long and bigger. For example: "The book has a significant corner crease in the lower left corner." This means that the book has a corner crease that is at least an inch long and maybe longer.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the QUANTITY of defects means that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 10 of those defects in the relevant grade. For example: "The book has considerable corner creases and significant edge chipping." This means that the book has between 8 and 10 corner creases and between 8 and 10 edge chips.

 

The words "many" and "accumulation" when used in relation to a defect mean that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 16 of those kinds of defects on a book in the relevant grade.

 

When used together, for example: "The book has an accumulation of significant creases." That means that the book has between 8 and 16 creases that are an inch long or longer.

 

So a book with 8 to 10 one inch creases can be VF-?

[FFB]

I see what you're talking about but I really think you're misinterpreting the information and intent. The suggested ranges is intended to provide some kind of quantitative definition for the many terms we use in describing a defect or accumulation of defects. So if I say a grade can include a "significant accumulation," say, the suggested ranges gives you a ballpark (but not a definitive range mind you) of 8-10 individual defects that might be present. And the chart is meant to indicate how many individual defects in general might be present in a given grade. These numbers are not points indicating severity of a defect, they are numbers indicating the total accumulation of *individual* defects that might be allowable in a given grade or that might be indicated by a given generic descriptive term.

 

Arnold

 

So you're saying a 1" crease is graded the same as a "significant accumulation" of 1" creases (up to 8-10?)?

Or a single 1" crease is graded the same as a 1/4" crease?

 

I've read the book, cover to cover, at least 5 times.

I've read pages 126 through 129 at least 20 times.

I never understood it the way you are describing it.

The "secret forumula" is obscure at best.

 

Perhaps the next grading guide could be a little easier to understand.

When you guys do a "Grading for Dummies", maybe I can learn to grade too.

 

You are misunderstanding the Good Book.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the SIZE of defects means that the defect is 1 inch long and bigger. For example: "The book has a significant corner crease in the lower left corner." This means that the book has a corner crease that is at least an inch long and maybe longer.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the QUANTITY of defects means that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 10 of those defects in the relevant grade. For example: "The book has considerable corner creases and significant edge chipping." This means that the book has between 8 and 10 corner creases and between 8 and 10 edge chips.

 

The words "many" and "accumulation" when used in relation to a defect mean that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 16 of those kinds of defects on a book in the relevant grade.

 

When used together, for example: "The book has an accumulation of significant creases." That means that the book has between 8 and 16 creases that are an inch long or longer.

 

So a book with 8 to 10 one inch creases can be VF-?

 

Of course! If you don't believe me, just check ebay. Tons of "VF" books on there with 8-10 one-inch creases. Hell, some of them are "Mint" or "Near Mint."

[DiceX]

I see what you're talking about but I really think you're misinterpreting the information and intent. The suggested ranges is intended to provide some kind of quantitative definition for the many terms we use in describing a defect or accumulation of defects. So if I say a grade can include a "significant accumulation," say, the suggested ranges gives you a ballpark (but not a definitive range mind you) of 8-10 individual defects that might be present. And the chart is meant to indicate how many individual defects in general might be present in a given grade. These numbers are not points indicating severity of a defect, they are numbers indicating the total accumulation of *individual* defects that might be allowable in a given grade or that might be indicated by a given generic descriptive term.

 

Arnold

 

So you're saying a 1" crease is graded the same as a "significant accumulation" of 1" creases (up to 8-10?)?

Or a single 1" crease is graded the same as a 1/4" crease?

 

I've read the book, cover to cover, at least 5 times.

I've read pages 126 through 129 at least 20 times.

I never understood it the way you are describing it.

The "secret forumula" is obscure at best.

 

Perhaps the next grading guide could be a little easier to understand.

When you guys do a "Grading for Dummies", maybe I can learn to grade too.

 

You are misunderstanding the Good Book.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the SIZE of defects means that the defect is 1 inch long and bigger. For example: "The book has a significant corner crease in the lower left corner." This means that the book has a corner crease that is at least an inch long and maybe longer.

 

The words "considerable" and "significant" when used to refer to the QUANTITY of defects means that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 10 of those defects in the relevant grade. For example: "The book has considerable corner creases and significant edge chipping." This means that the book has between 8 and 10 corner creases and between 8 and 10 edge chips.

 

The words "many" and "accumulation" when used in relation to a defect mean that you can generally expect to see between 8 and 16 of those kinds of defects on a book in the relevant grade.

 

When used together, for example: "The book has an accumulation of significant creases." That means that the book has between 8 and 16 creases that are an inch long or longer.

 

So a book with 8 to 10 one inch creases can be VF-?

 

Of course! If you don't believe me, just check ebay. Tons of "VF" books on there with 8-10 one-inch creases. Hell, some of them are "Mint" or "Near Mint."

 

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Thanks, that's basically correct and I will concede that the chart that defines the numerical equivalents for those generic descriptive terms is causing the confusion and should be modified. That chart is not meant to indicate any equivalency between the defect sizes listed in the one column with the quantity numbers in the right side column. All that chart is supposed to be is a set of suggested meanings for a descriptive terms used throughout the book. When the term is used to describe a single defect, you can define it by looking at the middle column. When the term is meant to suggest a quantity of individual defects, you can define it by looking at the right column. But you're not meant to read all the way across and take both definitions as related.

 

We'll need to fix that. And remember, these aren't definitive answers anyway, the whole point was just to provide a bit more concrete definition for terms that lots of people said were too vague. We still leave plenty of room for you to interpret the guidelines as you see fit.

 

Arnold

[Calamerica]

Of course! If you don't believe me, just check ebay. Tons of "VF" books on there with 8-10 one-inch creases. Hell, some of them are "Mint" or "Near Mint."

 

Therein lies the trap of buying on eBay. Now we need others to recognize this too and not buy!

 

CAL

[Calamerica]

Thanks, that's basically correct and I will concede that the chart that defines the numerical equivalents for those generic descriptive terms is causing the confusion and should be modified. That chart is not meant to indicate any equivalency between the defect sizes listed in the one column with the quantity numbers in the right side column. All that chart is supposed to be is a set of suggested meanings for a descriptive terms used throughout the book. When the term is used to describe a single defect, you can define it by looking at the middle column. When the term is meant to suggest a quantity of individual defects, you can define it by looking at the right column. But you're not meant to read all the way across and take both definitions as related.

 

The "Grading Range" of experienced Graders will cover all of the above. I always maintained that 3 comic book graders with comic: xyz : can be a VF+ 8.5, VF/NM 9.0. All are "right" and close to an exacting mark, but none of them are more "wrong" than another. I also state that people get too wrapped up with an EXACT numerical grade. It takes vast expeirence to grade consistently and properly. The old saying goes " I see defects in YOUR items that you don't want to see, and you see defects in MY item I don't want to see.".

 

CAL