Information, knowledge, and these boards

[tth2]

POV makes great points....somewhere in the middle of that long boring post.

 

so heres mine: hey, this is an internet chat room right? Not comics collecting 101 at Columbia University. I got news for anyone who thinks this place isnt living up to its potential ---- what you see and experience here IS its potential. that's it. For better AND worse. Get used to it. I get scared hearing how much "better" it could be here if only this and if only that were to happen, or if we all chipped in and whatever....

 

Aman, of course it should still be a chat room and people should still be able to have fun and not just talk about weighty topics.

 

I think what PedigreeMan is saying is, wouldn't it be really cool if the atmosphere of these boards was a bit more friendly, so that some of these really knowledgeable collectors/dealers that he had talked to felt comfortable enough to come on these boards to have the same conversation, and share the info, simultaneously with all of us? Rather than just impart their knowledge in one-on-one conversations, where the recipient might not share some or all of that info, or even if they do, screw up some facts in the re-telling (remember that old game "operator")?

[sterlingcomics]

I agree that there could be more informative and insightful posts, and less of the drama syndrome that typically haunts message boards. I will say that I have learned more here in the past six months than going at it alone--to place a positive spin on the current state of the boards. I do wish it was a more collaborative space which was free from flaming/inappropriate comments. Sounds like a world created in the Matrix, to me-unfortunately.

 

The crazy posts also adds to entertainment value, if nothing else. I'd personally rather listen to someone's rant (whether it is correct or not) here and get my perspective than to be a couch potato and watch TV.

 

In terms of rehashing of past posts-- some of this is due to the turnover here on the boards, and yes, some restart the conversation because that's what interests them--that's what makes the board go round and round. Those that get tired of seeing the same subjects---make up some new ones, and stop crying about it already. I think a separate "wish" list of future topics would be a good start.

 

PM-thanks for taking the time to provide some introspection of your view of the boards-and your wish to improve upon it.

 

"Take care of yourself, and each other..." - Jerry Springer

[Aman619]

yeah I know it "could" be better. Im just underlining the fact that we are a group, a disparate group of people with perhaps just one thing in common - - comics. It doesnt mean all of us would, or could be friends otherwise. There is that chance due to our common interest, but.....

 

At this point, after a year and a half, Im just trying to read tha stuff that interests me, and more and more just ignore threads that dont, and scrolling over long graemlin "no im not" "yes you are" hate fests AND love fests as a fruther waste of time than the hours a am spending daily.

 

I look for and savor threads of interest, and there are plenty, but i feel this place is like everything else out there now: like that comment that "90% of everything is dreck!" We say it about all other media...why should we be immune from that disease??? If this were a small elite club maybe we could install strict rules of behaviour... but, I do not think that is what the moderators and CGC envision for this site. They want as many collectors as possible to convene here and impel greater use and acceptance of their product.

[blowout]

My take on this issue is that the only way really to 'improve' the quality of the information here and the usefullness of the boards in general, is to look to yourself first.

Post/start more interesting comments/threads and stay clear (if possible) from the negativity and mud slinging that goes on. If you are doing all that successfully yourself, then hopefully it will rub off on others.

I have tried to be as possitive as possible in my time on the boards, although it hasn't always been easy.

[RustyStaple]

You have been here longer than I have, that is true. In the time I have read the boards. I too read almost every single posting that ever goes on, in every forum. So I too feel qualified to say that the state of the boards is more different than it was a year ago. Again, I don't know about prior to this because I wasn't here.

 

Yes, the "old time" board members are generally the same. It's the posts that I think are very different than before. There used to be more comic talk, or at the very least some healthy discussions. Now you can rarely get 5 posts into a thread before someone takes it off topic, ot a flame war erupts.

 

I know this has been going on for some time, almost since the boards began. I know almost all the "old timers" can handle anything that happens. I just wonder how the lurkers and newbies perceive the boards.

 

As a 'newbie' I joined because of the info gained even when you read through the flame wars. The amount of knowledge people are willing to 'share' on this public forum is outstanding and being just that, a public forum, you learn to take the good with the bad.

 

Bill

[THE_BEYONDER]

Those that get tired of seeing the same subjects---make up some new ones, and stop crying about it already.

 

 

I find it amusing how those that rarely say anything, are overwhelming vocal when it comes to complaining about the " state " of these boards.

 

" They are ruining the boards!!! "

What exactly have any of them done to make these boards better ?

 

Whining and complaining definately doesn't help...

[blowout]

I find it amusing how those that rarely say anything, are overwhelming vocal when it comes to complaining about the " state " of these boards.

 

" They are ruining the boards!!! "

What exactly have any of them done to make these boards better ?

 

Whining and complaining definately doesn't help...

 

Agreed, as I said earlier, people need to look at themselves first.

[burntboy]

I've had a full twenty-four hours to digest all of the current happenings, and felt the need to throw my two cents worth into the mix as well.

 

First, some anecdotes. I talked with Comgeek for all of thirty seconds at last year’s Chicago forum dinner, but in that time he shared more interesting information than most people with a thousand posts here have. About a year and a half ago I called up Chris Foss looking for Spokanes, and got the best twenty minute conversation about pedigrees ever. Two years ago I chatted with Bob Beerbohm only briefly, but walked away feeling like I had learned enough about the comic book world to write a book. One year ago I learned enough about the Edgar Church pedigree from Stuart Degraff to write a book. Over this time I’ve also collected my own set of stories, and have even been able to share a couple of them from time to time. So yes, there’s a lot of information out there, only a fraction of which ever gets mentioned on this public forum.

 

When someone like Zillatoy, Timely, Tripps, Linmoth, Moondog, etc. makes a post on these boards, that post’s substance and history and introspection tends to stand head and shoulders above the petty flame wars and graemlin posts and thousandth thread about pressing or comic-keys or CGG or who’s scamming whom on eBay this hour. It is this quality of post that is the root of this misperceived “BSD worship.” In this world, knowledge is golden and gives worth and value to a person, not some decaying scraps of paper entombed in plastic. For example, if Dave Anderson were to pop on these boards he’d be bombarded with questions running the gamut from his Action #1 to what type of sump-pump system he has in place. But that’s because he has the knowledge and the information we want to make ourselves better -- better posters, better collectors, better conveyors of info … better people.

 

Comgeek’s meltdown last night was his ham-fisted attempt at describing this ideal situation where useful, valid information is shared and exchanged freely and without bias, causing us all to come out better people. This board has the unique potential across the entire Internet to fulfill that goal. I mean, where else on the Web will you find such a deep well of historical figures from the comic book world upon which to draw information? Sure, there are specialized mailing lists that cater to Kirby or Timely/Atlas or original art collectors, but they’re fragmented across all of cyberspace. This board is right here, right now, 24/7, with enough members out there just teeming with knowledge and are (more or less) willing to share. And what do we mostly end up talking about? [!@#%^&^]. Stupid [!@#%^&^], rehashed [!@#%^&^], [!@#%^&^] we have no clue what we’re talking about but still have to give our opinion -- no matter if it’s right or wrong -- on. Is it any wonder so many people with real information and knowledge leave or never join our group in the first place?

 

I wish we could better balance the signal to noise ratio here. But that’s just me. While guys like me and Fantastic Four and FFB are primarily here to soak up info, that’s obviously not the case for everyone. A lot of the dealers here carry the number one goal of selling a book. A number of us are simply here to make friends -- being comic collectors we’re probably introverted and outcast and being around others like us reinforces our belief that we’re “okay” or “normal.” And a very small minority of us derives pleasure from always being right or by somehow illustrating how they’re so much “better” or “smarter” than the rest of us. Everyone exhibits a number of these characteristics throughout their posting career, but one is always dominant. And like a person who collects super-heroes or westerns or funny books or pedigrees, no one is the “ideal” board member. I do feel there are probably better places on the Internet for some of the above activities outside of the first, and the last activity almost always ends up alienating vast tracts of people, but again, that’s just my belief. And you do have to admit that the current motley crew does tend to keep things interesting. But I still wish we could get more informative posts here.

 

And be civil to one another.

 

Alan

 

an interesting and well thought-out post. i agree with most of it.

 

but as others have pointed out, this is a comicbook chat board. as such, we'll always have a diverse and often interesting group of topics. i think almost everyone contributes in their own way.

 

i'd like to see less negativism, fewer Graemlin only posts, fewer multiple quotes, less comedic posturing, less flaming, more "war stories", more Pics, more "guess the grades", more linkage to interesting books and sites, and more postings in the Babe Test

[tth2]

I find it amusing how those that rarely say anything, are overwhelming vocal when it comes to complaining about the " state " of these boards.

 

" They are ruining the boards!!! "

What exactly have any of them done to make these boards better ?

 

Whining and complaining definately doesn't help...

 

Agreed, as I said earlier, people need to look at themselves first.

 

Who are these comments directed at? Most of the people who are advocating a more informative and less strident board have in fact contributed lots of interesting facts and insights, or posted cool books, that have improved various collectors' knowledge and appreciation of collecting. What exactly is it you're looking for before you say someone has done something to make the boards better? Personally, I think anyone who contributes some info every now, expresses appreciation of comic collecting and participates in a civil manner should be considered a good member of this board.

[The Brain]

who can argue with logic like that

[Architecht]

You have been here longer than I have, that is true. In the time I have read the boards. I too read almost every single posting that ever goes on, in every forum. So I too feel qualified to say that the state of the boards is more different than it was a year ago. Again, I don't know about prior to this because I wasn't here.

 

Yes, the "old time" board members are generally the same. It's the posts that I think are very different than before. There used to be more comic talk, or at the very least some healthy discussions. Now you can rarely get 5 posts into a thread before someone takes it off topic, ot a flame war erupts.

 

I know this has been going on for some time, almost since the boards began. I know almost all the "old timers" can handle anything that happens. I just wonder how the lurkers and newbies perceive the boards.

 

There are both micro and macro cycles to a board's life. The micro cycles happen all of the time and are frequently mistaken for the macro cycle. Micro cycles involve the general flavor of the social relationships of frequent posters, as well as the current topics of interest. Sometimes the topics of interest are benign and easy -- everyone gets together to post their have-a-cigar purchases, or they all decide to share information about how they got into collecting, etc.. Other times, they just happen to be more controversial - restoration issues, disputes over ebay practices or whatever else. In between the big "news" topics, there are gaps filled with social things. This is when nothing particularly new to the group comes up, so people spend alot of time talking about who's winning the superbowl, or the heat wave in XXX, or whatever. The micro cycles happen all of the time and always will. They affect the general flavor of the boards at that time, but they can be counted on to change like the weather. How long are they? There is no hard rule, but I'd say 2 weeks to 1 month. How long do they FEEL? That depends on how much time you spend here.

 

If you post here every day, and read posts for 4 hours / day, and a micro cycle lasts 3 weeks... that's 84 hours to you and it feels like a long time. If you stop by 3 times per week for an hour, that's 9 hours to you. It becomes easy to see how to some people these micro cycles are a blip on the radar, while to others "it's a disasterous trend!" or "the golden age of the boards!" (depending on whether it's good or bad).

 

 

 

The macro cycles are a different issue. They basically relate to the cumulative attitude and experience of the active membership at any given time. For instance, a constant influx of new members for 2 months creates a different feel than a lull in new members for 2 months. A series of dedicated posters who spend all of their time creating negativity and can keep it up for a long time can alter the macro cycle. A number of concerned members that counter that and create a social pressure to be nicer can swing it back the other way. This is "culture setting" and DOES have a long term effect.

 

The other factor is moderation - the strongest and clumsiest and least healthy way to "culture set". Culture setting through moderation that includes things like banning is a necessary tool because some people simply get out of hand and don't have the personal restraint to take the long view and help create a "good party" instead of a "drunken brawl". However, attempting to use moderation to affect the more delicate micro cycles or even the gentler swings in the macro cycles creates a somewhat severe disruption in a board's healthy traffic. It creates a kind of "shock" effect that has people wondering what they can post and what they can't. The affect on a board that's over moderated or even PERCEIVED as over-moderated is a drop off in traffic and eventual boredom. Alternatively, the effect on a board that's under-moderated is an increasingly active but smaller and smaller group of people who thrive in the "heat" of flame wars, with a simultaneous drop off of members who don't.

 

The ideal board is one that:

 

1) Is moderated only against the strongest of negative influences

 

2) Slips easily through the micro cycles without anyone becoming too upset by the small swings

 

3) Has an active group of members who exert influence on the macro cycle to make sure everyone remembers that we're all people sharing common interests who deserve each others respect

 

4) Does NOT develop too high a concentration of members who push every debate into a high-octane situation while holding a match

 

5) DOES retain lots of differing view points, lots of controversial topics, the occasional high-octane debates even resulting in some ego-bruises here and there, but always resolving back towards mutual respect

 

It's that delicate balance of keeping things interesting and lively without going overboard, and keeping them civil and friendly without pushing things into boring total agreement.

[The Brain]

thank you for that. i for one am glad you see it that way.

[PedigreeMan]

 

Thanks everyone for your input! I hope I didn’t come across as too negative in my post, as that was never my intention. While I share a lot of the frustrations I read from Comgeek and others, I do agree with the majority that the transformation of this board into a pure “information clearinghouse” would ultimately lead to it becoming a very boring place.

 

Also, my perception of this place falls somewhere in-between Deathlok’s and Aman’s. First, I disagree with DL that the board is in a decline. Like Arch mentioned, our “macro cycle” has been in a negative shift for the past couple of months, but we as a group (for the most part) have been slowly nudging it back to normalcy. There are enough strong, vocal, articulate people here to beat back any pessimism that gets out of hand. Plus, I think we all care about this board too much to let it go to hell. That being said, however, even if we manage to get our “macro cycle” back to “normal,” there will still be room for improvement. Like I said in my initial post, I would like to see the signal-to-noise ratio improve in Comic General. So many good posts get lost there -- especially in the hot button topics -- because of the ubiquitous detritus that always seems to pop up. For instance, Ariach made a post in one of the 200+ response monsters last week about the specialized forums being more informative and civil than Comic General. He hit the nail right on the head there, but no one commented on it, presumably because it got lost in the shuffle. Same goes for Linmoth’s magnificent return post that echoed a lot of the sentiments I’m trying to get across here. Heck, even going back through past posts for examples, POV’s repeated articulate musings about pressing as restoration vis-a-vis the Edgar Church books should be getting more attention than they do. You get the picture. Understandably, Comic General is just that: general comic book talk, and as such is more prone to topic drift, flame wars, and other malfeasances. But it is still the one forum that a number of people check first or check exclusively, and is really the front door or starting point for most newbies. Thus, again, it seems like we could do better to clean up the refuse here, put out the “Welcome” mat ( Beyonder), and foster a more cordial atmosphere for the casual user, as well as any BSDs who may be lurking.

 

I mean, if what Comgeek says is true (and there’s no reason anyone should doubt him) and Dave Anderson and Steve Geppi have checked out our little group, can anyone really say that we wouldn’t be better off with their participation? But, if they joined us for a bit, given the current state of affairs how long would it be before someone called DA a “jerkwad speculator” or mamanook an “evil monopolist” or something? Then it’s either the Brulato scenario all over again or the permanent driving off of these fantastic potential contributors, most likely with a bad taste in their mouths for CGC and its customers. I doubt anyone wants that.

 

So yeah, are we perfect? Heck no. We’re only human, after all. Is there room for improvement? Always. What’s the answer? Damn, if I knew that one I’d be charging ya all money instead of offering this [!@#%^&^] up for free!

 

Hoping he’s not digging his own grave here,

Alan

 

P.S. Povertyrow, I should have included you in my initial list of “head and shoulders above the rest” posters, and for this oversight I deeply apologize. Being the father of two permanently pinned threads (the “how to detect resto” and “have a cigar” ones) should alone allow you to post as many graemlin-only or drooling maniac posts as you wish! You’re one of the good guys, here POV. Now gimme a hug!

[PovertyRow]

Thanks everyone for your input! I hope I didn’t come across as too negative in my post

 

No, you came across as just the right amount of negative (for Vincent price playing Doctor Phibes, that is!)

 

I do agree with Arch about cycles - they come and they go. Think of them as pulses of life (ok - time to go - I am staring to wax poetic!).

 

PS - Thanks for the kind words.

[blowout]

Who are these comments directed at? Most of the people who are advocating a more informative and less strident board have in fact contributed lots of interesting facts and insights, or posted cool books, that have improved various collectors' knowledge and appreciation of collecting. What exactly is it you're looking for before you say someone has done something to make the boards better?

 

My comments weren't directed at anyone in particular, but aimed at the board in general. I certainly don't think that everyone who complains about the state of the boards is doing all they can to improve things. I would just say that before jumping in to criticise certain board members behaviour, the poster might first consider whether or not they are guilty of the same things themselves.

 

Personally, I think anyone who contributes some info every now, expresses appreciation of comic collecting and participates in a civil manner should be considered a good member of this board.

 

I agree totally.

[egambart-migration]

"As regards I just wonder how the lurkers and newbies perceive the boards. , I pray they have the insight to see all that is here! "

 

The reality is that the "newbies" and "lurkers" perceive this Board as the private domain of a few. We all have witnessed the situation where someone who we recognize as 'experienced' in our hobby has posted once or twice, then disappeared. This is not to say that there is not valid content on the Board, but more often that not it is sandwiched between the private conversations initiated by one of the few, and jumped on by the rest.

 

On the other hand I do think a Board solely concerned with information and erudition would be somewhat faceless - But I do think legitimate posters should be met with a little less gang warfare and high-jacking. The term "newbie" in itself suggests an interloper, and I do believe that an 'open' Board is as legitimate a domain for someone who has posted a few posts as much as it is for someone who posts on a nightly basis - If it is not it simply becomes a chat room, which I'm afraid it's how it often appears to the casual observer........I personally believe the quality of the posts rather than the number adds credance to any open forum.........

[PovertyRow]

"As regards I just wonder how the lurkers and newbies perceive the boards. , I pray they have the insight to see all that is here! "

 

The reality is that the "newbies" and "lurkers" perceive this Board as the private domain of a few. We all have witnessed the situation where someone who we recognize as 'experienced' in our hobby has posted once or twice, then disappeared. This is not to say that there is not valid content on the Board, but more often that not it is sandwiched between the private conversations initiated by one of the few, and jumped on by the rest.

 

On the other hand I do think a Board solely concerned with information and erudition would be somewhat faceless - But I do think legitimate posters should be met with a little less gang warfare and high-jacking. The term "newbie" in itself suggests an interloper, and I do believe that an 'open' Board is as legitimate a domain for someone who has posted a few posts as much as it is for someone who posts on a nightly basis - If it is not it simply becomes a chat room, which I'm afraid it's how it often appears to the casual observer........I personally believe the quality of the posts rather than the number adds credance to any open forum.........

 

Egam - you posted similar ideas a couple of weeks ago in the thread you began called "Is there such a thing as an 'open' board?" . A LOT of us gave you thoughtful responses and suggested you give posting a real try. You've made no reposnses to the people who DID take you seriouslyk, and there were a LOT of them, have made one unrelated post since then and now you are back to the similar views. TRY GETTING INVOLVED. EVERYONE WAS A NEWBIE HERE ONCE.

[burntboy]

"As regards I just wonder how the lurkers and newbies perceive the boards. , I pray they have the insight to see all that is here! "

 

The reality is that the "newbies" and "lurkers" perceive this Board as the private domain of a few. We all have witnessed the situation where someone who we recognize as 'experienced' in our hobby has posted once or twice, then disappeared. This is not to say that there is not valid content on the Board, but more often that not it is sandwiched between the private conversations initiated by one of the few, and jumped on by the rest.

 

On the other hand I do think a Board solely concerned with information and erudition would be somewhat faceless - But I do think legitimate posters should be met with a little less gang warfare and high-jacking. The term "newbie" in itself suggests an interloper, and I do believe that an 'open' Board is as legitimate a domain for someone who has posted a few posts as much as it is for someone who posts on a nightly basis - If it is not it simply becomes a chat room, which I'm afraid it's how it often appears to the casual observer........I personally believe the quality of the posts rather than the number adds credance to any open forum.........

 

Egam - you posted similar ideas a couple of weeks ago in the thread you began called "Is there such a thing as an 'open' board?" . A LOT of us gave you thoughtful responses and suggested you give posting a real try. You've made no reposnses to the people who DID take you seriouslyk, and there were a LOT of them, have made one unrelated post since then and now you are back to the similar views. TRY GETTING INVOLVED. EVERYONE WAS A NEWBIE HERE ONCE.

 

a FAIR observation POV

[The Brain]

As a former lurker and now Newbie, these boards are what YOU make them. Stay on the

 

sidelines(as an un-registered observer ) or come on board. It's about choice. It take posting to get

 

a feel for the person on the other side of that screen. But once you do you can begin to move

 

forward . Again that choice.

[PovertyRow]

As a former lurker and now Newbie, these boards are what YOU make them. Stay on the

 

sidelines(as an un-registered observer ) or come on board. It's about choice. It take posting to get

 

a feel for the person on the other side of that screen. But once you do you can begin to move

 

forward . Again that choice.

 

OK - now that IS a Brainy post!

 

This has been a Mark VII Production!