Which Marvel Copper stories you consider the best (and why)?

[vaillant]

Really dug Punisher 49

 

 

It was a stand alone story about a kidnapping/ransom that Big P foils, but in the process gets tagged in the gut and is then hunted through a snow blanketed forest. This is the very first time I read a Pun story and wasnt a 100% that he was gonna make it through to the end. It really shows how much of a bad writer I am when trying to write about other peoples great stories Anyways, big props to Ron Wagner for the pencils and Chuck Dixon for an AMAZING story!!!

 

Thank you for taking the time. That’s exactly the kind of response I hoped to get, but I guess most people did not understand as many suggested entire runs or certain characters: precisely because the characters are the staple element to me, the quality I am looking for in the stories is related to how good they are handled and/or respected.

 

I don't know about that. The character Moon Knight is mentioned in the GI Joe books so makes you think that maybe GI Joe is.

Just a thought.

 

Thanks, very likely is part of that "loose" continuity bond which existed for series which were commercially fueled by toys, like Crystar, or titles like the UK line of Marvel Frontier Comics.

[whisp]

Really dug Punisher 49

 

 

It was a stand alone story about a kidnapping/ransom that Big P foils, but in the process gets tagged in the gut and is then hunted through a snow blanketed forest. This is the very first time I read a Pun story and wasnt a 100% that he was gonna make it through to the end. It really shows how much of a bad writer I am when trying to write about other peoples great stories Anyways, big props to Ron Wagner for the pencils and Chuck Dixon for an AMAZING story!!!

 

Thank you for taking the time. That’s exactly the kind of response I hoped to get, but I guess most people did not understand as many suggested entire runs or certain characters: precisely because the characters are the staple element to me, the quality I am looking for in the stories is related to how good they are handled and/or respected.

 

I don't know about that. The character Moon Knight is mentioned in the GI Joe books so makes you think that maybe GI Joe is.

Just a thought.

 

Thanks, very likely is part of that "loose" continuity bond which existed for series which were commercially fueled by toys, like Crystar, or titles like the UK line of Marvel Frontier Comics.

 

Yeah its a very loose reference. In one of the comics Snake Eyes is chasing Storm Shadow and a kid points to Storm Shadow and goes "look, its Moon Knight".

 

So either Moon Knight is in that universe or the kid read a comic book of moon Knight.

 

Either way to me it shows a little bit of a link of the marvel universe.

[vaillant]

In fact, Marvel Frontier Comics were meant as part of the actual continuity but not involving the main Marvel characters; their aim in being "different", however, was unclear, so they failed, IMO.

[whisp]

Never seen those books. This was a Joe book that happened in.

[vaillant]

Yes, I understood, thanks, I was justing changing discussion.

 

Frontier comics were a line produced by british authors in the early 1990s, some titles were interesting, like Dances with Demons and Immortalis:

 

 

 

Immortalis featured an appearance by Doctor Strange.

[whisp]

I like Doctor Strange. I watched the one cartoon/animation where he comes into power.

 

 

They are like magical ninjas.

[ashsaytr]

Beta Ray Bill?

[comicalgems]

Amazing Spider-Man 350-375 was a pretty good run. Of course you'll need 344 and 345 for the first Kletus Cassady

[Reno McCoy]

I probably said this already, but the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run on Avengers is fantastic in issues 255-300. I'm reading them again and enjoying them as much as I did as a kid.

 

I agree with comicalgems, too. ASM 350-375 is solid!

[awakeintheashes]

Amazing Spider-Man 350-375 was a pretty good run. Of course you'll need 344 and 345 for the first Kletus Cassady

 

I'm a bit partial to this run. The first comic I read was ASM 350, which my uncle bought me as a kid to shut me up on a road trip.

[vaillant]

Beta Ray Bill?

If you read the previous post you’ll see I already have the full Thor Simonson run, but thanks! (thumbs u

 

Amazing Spider-Man 350-375 was a pretty good run. Of course you'll need 344 and 345 for the first Kletus Cassady

 

Thank you, I do think I have all, as I was buying them as they came out and read most of them, and the full Carnage storyline and most of its slow decline… I liked the concept, and I liked most of what Michelinie had been doing, up to some point.

I also think this borders outside of Copper, as we are already in the early 1990s. I’m sure I have Amazing at least up to issue 400 or so.

 

And the Stern run on the Avengers, it seems we all pretty much agree on their quality, especially "Under Siege".

[zosocane]

Probably the Miller Daredevil and Byrne Fantastic Four runs. Those were in another league -- even better (IMO) than the Claremont-Byrne X-Men run which was terrific in its own right.

 

The Miller/Janson artwork I think broke the pattern of traditional comic artwork and got more into the use of shade/darkness and a visual grittiness that we had not really seen before. And the writing was quite original as well.

 

The Byrne FF run -- he was in complete control of that title when he was at the helm. You could feel it when you would get each book, both the quality of the writing and the artwork. Very inspired stuff. I will say John Byrne was at the peak of his creative power at that point.

 

Honorable mentions go, in no particular order, to: Avengers (Stern run); ASM (some of the Danny Fingeroth/Ron Frenz issues); Cloak & Dagger mini-series; Wolverine mini-series.

 

I absolutely hated Secret Wars. Just dumb all the way around and it seemed like Marvel was trying to create a flash in the pan to make a quick buck. They never stopped after that.

[whetteon]

New Warriors #10-13? I was a little younger than many of the fans of this board and it was my first foray into apocalyptic futures where everything hinges on a few characters. I thought it was pretty amazing. Little did I know that the story line had been done in Uncanny X-Men #141 & 142 a decade prior.

 

Otherwise, nothing tops Infinite Gauntlet for the #1 "Oh , no he didn't" moment in the end of the Copper Age. A villain who does what he wants AND the super-heroes of earth who are most effected don't even really matter. Heck, the Gods themselves were easily biaotch slap in issue #5. I mean, at that point in the series you have to wonder if the writer backed himself into a corner cause I couldn't fathom a way out of the predicament. Epic!

[vaillant]

Thanks to everyone.

 

Maybe I should post a list/recap, as I have already replied about many of those series, which I either already have or am acquainted with.

 

@zosocane: I honestly think that, good as they are, Byrne’s Fantastic Four are somewhat discontinuous as the X-Men had been. I love the early Len Wein/Claremont X-Men, but I am not a big fan of the Phoenix saga, and the latter period (after #130). The same problems I have with Miller’s Daredevil. While artistically relevant on his own merits, I think Miller pushed things a bit too far, in how he substantially "rewrote" a character instead of trying to get into it (as this is after all what Marvel was about, which made it different from, say, DC comics).

 

Agree on the Secret Wars. Never felt compelled to read it, even the concept of the Beyonder alone did not make sense. That’s what I was trying to say about Jim Shooter in the other "Copper Age" thread.

 

@whetteon: I read the New Warriors when In was in my 20s, and I have to admit I liked some ideas and also quite enjoyed it, but the series as a whole did not make much sense to me. If you were grown up with Nova (as I was), and knew the older characters well (I am also thinking of Namorita) you wondered how much Nicieza really knew them.

While recent characters, like Speedball, were in focus, and well written, Nova really had little to do with Nova. The situation worsened when Nicieza picked up the old "Champions of Xandar" storyline (started on Nova and completed in the pages of the Fantastic Four), as the issues looked to me like a not-so-accomplished imitation of the original Marv Wolfman concepts.

 

I won’t talk about the Infinity Gauntlet because it did not make sense at all to me to have Warlock "resurrected" to start with: I did not like what Starlin was doing and I dropped Silver Surfer (which I was reading) as well. I have read some comments on your forum about the early Warlock stories, whose importance you seemed to undervalue. If you aren’t so familiar with them, I’d suggest you to read (or re-read) Marvel Premiere and the #1-8 original Roy Thomas run.

I also think the sequence of issues (#62 to #67) with the origin story is probably one of the most accomplished, and artistically relevant, from Lee and Kirby’s Fantastic Four run.

[Jeffro.]

I probably said this already, but the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run on Avengers is fantastic in issues 255-300. I'm reading them again and enjoying them as much as I did as a kid.

 

 

Great run. One of the best of the 80s.

[vaillant]

Great run. One of the best of the 80s.

 

Especially the "Under Siege" issues. Up to the heights of the best Silver and Bronze stories. I’m so happy to own an Iron Man book which belonged to Stern.

[rjrjr]

Reno McCoy started a thread about the collectabilty and finding high grade copper books.

 

My interest, as I missed most of those when they came out (except the Fantastic Four, which I collect in full), would be to know which stories, or runs, or titles, you consider the most outstanding of the Copper Age, with possibly some commentary on their quality (i.e. not just "I like it because I like it" ).

 

Many thanks in advance! (thumbs u

 

P.S. I would skip Miller's Daredevil as I am not a big fan of it, and I’d like to know more about less known single stories or runs.

 

Marvel was hitting on all cylinders during the Copper age. Continuity was tight, many creators had long running titles that were fabulous (Byrne's FF, Claremont's X-Men, Simonson's Thor, Miller's Daredevil.) I find it hard to pick up any book from this period from any of Marvel's titles and not appreciate it. I suspect the list would be shorter of the Marvel books that were not good during this period. This period for Marvel was second only to the Silver Age.

 

Byrne had a terrific (but short) run on West Coast Avengers that is worth picking up. I was fond of Micronauts volume 1, although when Baron Karza is defeated the first time, the title starts to wander a bit.

 

Despite Marvel's high output, I'd have to say Perez and Wolfman on New Teen Titan's is a must for any copper age fan and is the highlight of the copper age. It is sad to see how DC has dismantled this premiere team over the years to the point that it has been abandoned in the new 52. What a wasted opportunity by DC to bring these fabulous characters (Beast Boy, Robin, Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Speedy, Wondergirl) back together again. Now, they are so spread out, I cannot imagine how it would be possible to get them all on the same team again and have it make sense.

[Bosco685]

Marvel was hitting on all cylinders during the Copper age. Continuity was tight, many creators had long running titles that were fabulous (Byrne's FF, Claremont's X-Men, Simonson's Thor, Miller's Daredevil.) I find it hard to pick up any book from this period from any of Marvel's titles and not appreciate it. I suspect the list would be shorter of the Marvel books that were not good during this period. This period for Marvel was second only to the Silver Age.

 

Byrne had a terrific (but short) run on West Coast Avengers that is worth picking up. I was fond of Micronauts volume 1, although when Baron Karza is defeated the first time, the title starts to wander a bit.

 

And who was Marvel Editor-in-Chief at that time?

 

Despite Marvel's high output, I'd have to say Perez and Wolfman on New Teen Titan's is a must for any copper age fan and is the highlight of the copper age. It is sad to see how DC has dismantled this premiere team over the years to the point that it has been abandoned in the new 52. What a wasted opportunity by DC to bring these fabulous characters (Beast Boy, Robin, Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Speedy, Wondergirl) back together again. Now, they are so spread out, I cannot imagine how it would be possible to get them all on the same team again and have it make sense.

Totally agree! New Teen Titans was huge back then. There was New Teen Titans and Uncanny X-men as the big titles, with some other popular characters as well.

[whetteon]

Thanks to everyone.

 

@whetteon: I read the New Warriors when In was in my 20s, and I have to admit I liked some ideas and also quite enjoyed it, but the series as a whole did not make much sense to me. If you were grown up with Nova (as I was), and knew the older characters well (I am also thinking of Namorita) you wondered how much Nicieza really knew them.

While recent characters, like Speedball, were in focus, and well written, Nova really had little to do with Nova. The situation worsened when Nicieza picked up the old "Champions of Xandar" storyline (started on Nova and completed in the pages of the Fantastic Four), as the issues looked to me like a not-so-accomplished imitation of the original Marv Wolfman concepts.

 

I won’t talk about the Infinity Gauntlet because it did not make sense at all to me to have Warlock "resurrected" to start with: I did not like what Starlin was doing and I dropped Silver Surfer (which I was reading) as well. I have read some comments on your forum about the early Warlock stories, whose importance you seemed to undervalue. If you aren’t so familiar with them, I’d suggest you to read (or re-read) Marvel Premiere and the #1-8 original Roy Thomas run.

I also think the sequence of issues (#62 to #67) with the origin story is probably one of the most accomplished, and artistically relevant, from Lee and Kirby’s Fantastic Four run.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I read the New Warriors series when I was in 7th and 8th grade and from my young eyes they were excellent right up to about issue #18 or #19 when Marvel Boy killed his father. Not knowing the background of the characters when I first read these books it was a thrill. Sorry to hear that continuity wasn't with the readers who knew the characters a bit better.

 

Infinity Gauntlet was an excellent book. Again, through the eyes of a 10 or 11 year old it was pretty damn amazing. I have read the original Warlock series and I'm less than impressed. Earth 2? Really? Issues #10-15 were much, much better and I don't believe I undervalued them. Perhaps you uninterrupted my meaning on the boards.

 

I'll read some of the issues you mentioned so they are fresh in my mind. Oh, and I own a CGC 9.2 Fantastic Four #67 so Warlock is no stranger to me.

[vaillant]

Hi whetteon, thanks for the feedback.

 

Sorry if I ask what do you mean by "Perhaps you uninterrupted my meaning on the boards"? Sorry, but more than often my american english is still in beta…

 

I did not mean to despise the New Warriors. Trying to quintessentially judge the coherence and consistence of Marvel series' quality, at least up to the early 1990s, is a complex thing.

There are various factors. First, Nicieza as a Marvel writer, I never got to know which background he had. Surely I was perplexed at his work on X-Men and the mutant titles. They ruined the New Mutants, but I guess most of this is due to Rob Liefeld and Marvel. Nova‘s characterization was superficial, he just took some bits of Richard Rider‘s personality, here and there, and how he tried to develop him, as an older member experiencing a sort of "failure" in his former life, looked a bit unrealistic, and unconvincing. Namorita was a bit better.

But there were also very good and imaginative ideas, with possibly too many characters to allow them to be handled well. A very original idea was Psionex, in particular the characters of Pretty Persuasions and Asylum, but all were remarkable. I kept those issues.

 

As far as Warlock goes, I do not think that the two series (because you have got to consider them two series, as in fact they are) can be fairly compared. They need to be evaluated within their context and as one following the other.

You would not have had the Thomas Warlock without Lee and Kirby, and you would not have had a Jim Starlin Warlock without the Thomas run.

 

Although the "Earth 2" concept wasn’t realistic, or impressive, it’s what Thomas did with it that is fascinating. Besides the slices and reflexes of early 1970s youth culture which may be grasped in its pages, and the awesome Kane art, there are those strikingly immaginative counterparts to the known heroes, the Earth 2 Doctor Doom, which is good, and Reed Richards, which is the Brute (which would be later on used to great effect by Marv Wolfman, as he joined the Frightful Four and tried to take the place of Reed Richards). Add to this the unusual marriage with an ingenous image of evolutionary theories and a sort of "mysticism" applied to the figure of Warlock (which takes on christological connotations in these stories) and the whole is definitely a remarkable stone of the Marvel ongoing costruction at that point.

Starlin’s Warlock is a masterpiece in his own merit. To make a parallel, consider I read it more or less at the same age you read the Infinity Gauntlet. "Star Thief" and the whole Magus storyline blew me away, as much as it did Don McGregor’s Killraven.

 

I’m pretty much envious of your FF #67 in 9.2. I still have to find a copy in high grade with nice paper and good printing of the insides. It is one of the few issues I care mostly about, but my favorite is probably #65 where the broader story starts.