If Marvel is broken, how would you recommend they get "fixed"?

[UnrulyAppendage]

Even superstars like Jim Lee (Divine Right anyone?) and Michael Turner (Soulfire?) can't sell big numbers on their own superhero concepts. It's only when they are tied to big existing characters that they have their successes.

 

I hate saying this....but maybe it's the superhero aspect that passe with kids. I would consider the majority of Manga, proven popular with kids, more adventure oriented than what we consider the typical superhero angle.

 

That could also be one of the answers why no significant superhero has emerged from the Big 2 since Wolverine.

 

Jim

 

bingo!!

 

Steven Grant has been writing about this over at CBR. His reasoning why kids are not buying comic books is because the adults are. Being a kid is all about having a unique identity and when comic books are being read by adults, it loses it's appeal. How many of us as kids liked the stuff our parents did? How many of us had parents who hated that we collected comics? For some of us, it was a form of rebellion. Comics are not rebellion material for kids these days as they see adults buying them in the shops while they are playing magic games.

 

Another thing is empowerement. While we as adults think we are still in touch with our childhood, kids see us as old and people who tell them what to do. Video games are empowering becasue it gives them the sense of being in control. As much as we may deny it, comic books to kids is like an Oldsmobile. That is why if kids to pick up a comic, it's manga because at least it's different than the adult comics.

[hobbes]

[Kevin Boyd]

Steven Grant has been writing about this over at CBR. His reasoning why kids are not buying comic books is because the adults are. Being a kid is all about having a unique identity and when comic books are being read by adults, it loses it's appeal. How many of us as kids liked the stuff our parents did? How many of us had parents who hated that we collected comics? For some of us, it was a form of rebellion. Comics are not rebellion material for kids these days as they see adults buying them in the shops while they are playing magic games.

 

I liked comics as a kid because I liked comics. My older brother read them and I hated him, so if I wanted to rebel I wouldn't have chosen to read something he liked. I find that the quieter, more bookish kids tend to go for comics in a bigger way than the more active, socially developed kids. I don't see that as being rebellion from adults, quite the opposite really, more like rebellion from one's peers. Here's a world that I can access and follow that the other kids just don't get. Thing is, those types of kids are heavily into other things that take up their time and money - books, video and computer games, dvds and magic cards.

 

But full circle, and I'll keep harping on this - kids don't have access to comic books unless they live near a comic shop! You can't rebel or not rebel against something which is not a part of the world you experience in your daily life!

 

Another thing is empowerement. While we as adults think we are still in touch with our childhood, kids see us as old and people who tell them what to do. Video games are empowering becasue it gives them the sense of being in control. As much as we may deny it, comic books to kids is like an Oldsmobile. That is why if kids to pick up a comic, it's manga because at least it's different than the adult comics.

 

Psychobabble.

 

No comic books = no opinion. If they see comics as anything, it's as something you don't know about or understand because they aren't a part of their world. Maybe they do see comics as something for adults - but they would have to encounter adults who buy comics to form that opinion! And if the stats are correct, in North America that's a small fraction of the population. Maybe 500K (I'm feeling generous) in a population of approximately 350+ million people in North America. (I'm extrapolating on 2001's 312 million). That's about 1 person in every 700 who buys comic books regularly!

 

Manga, however, is a part of their world - it's in the bookstores in a BIG way... what manga does is hit teens where they live - in their social world... girls have discovered manga and are buying it (instead of sweet valley high, et al.), hence teenage boys are curious and are following suit because it doesn't have the stigma as being "girlish" and there are action titles on the rack with romance titles. The girls I've seen buying manga seem to genuinely like it... the boys that buy it like it too, but they are following the girls as a social "in". It's a way to get close to the girls. "Jenny likes Fushiyugi Mugi, so maybe if I read it I can have something to talk to her about (and maybe she will like me)". Manga/Anime clubs in schools are the 21st century meeting place for tweens and teens. It's a social thing. One dealer remarked about a local anime con... "if a teen can't get laid at this con then there's something really wrong with them". In the world of anime/manga/cosplay they can interact, dress up, party together, etc. In the new century, geek culture is an accepted part of growing up. It isn't rebelling to be a geek, it's now part of the mating ritual. Some kids like to emulate Eminem and Britney Spears, others prefer to dress like Trigun and Sailor Moon.

 

Comics... especially super-heroes... have almost exclusively been the realm of the male. Most comic book collecting tweens and teens are more solitary by nature. They may have one or two buddies that also collect, but it isn't a social thing for them. They do it to escape their social reality, not as a tool to enter a social world of like-minded individuals, as manga/anime fans do.

[shadroch]

Okay,while out on Long Island today I ran a quick pop quiz. I took it upon myself to stop in a few youth oriented stores and after introdrocing myself to the owners or managers ,asked them if they would be willing to carry some comics on a fully returnable basis,if racks were provided.Out of six stores I was met with one no and five maybes.When I mentioned them buying the books outright I was given three no's and two maybes.One store said it would commit to a small order.Four of the stores were quite interested in T-shirts of comic characters if they were returnable.

Doesn't mean anything really,but its interesting. Why not try it yourself.

[UnrulyAppendage]

But full circle, and I'll keep harping on this - kids don't have access to comic books unless they live near a comic shop! You can't rebel or not rebel against something which is not a part of the world you experience in your daily life!

 

And I'll keep harping on this, kids do not want to read comic books. There is a reason why comics have been relegated to specialty shops. There is a reason manga has more shelf space than comic books or TPB's. It's because kids don't buy them. Comics are not wanted in drug stores, 7/11's, even bookstores because they take up shelf space that could be filled with something that will sell.

 

Comics... especially super-heroes... have almost exclusively been the realm of the male. Most comic book collecting tweens and teens are more solitary by nature. They may have one or two buddies that also collect, but it isn't a social thing for them. They do it to escape their social reality, not as a tool to enter a social world of like-minded individuals, as manga/anime fans do.

 

That sounds like psychobabble to me.

 

You just validated everything I said. Manga is cool with the kids that are social, and the audience for superheroes gets video games because they have more control of that than they do of their lives. Comic books have lost out to both segments of kids because the stories being written cater to adults who want their superheroes to grow with them. They have been made safe for adults. Each generation wants something unique. In the comic realm, manga has become the mainstream entertainement of kids as it is different from traditional comics while video games have become the entertainment and escape of the "solitary" individual.

[Kevin Boyd]

And I'll keep harping on this, kids do not want to read comic books. There is a reason why comics have been relegated to specialty shops. There is a reason manga has more shelf space than comic books or TPB's. It's because kids don't buy them. Comics are not wanted in drug stores, 7/11's, even bookstores because they take up shelf space that could be filled with something that will sell.

 

Conventional history of the industry is that comics were relegated to the specialty shops because they bought non-returnable comics and the other places didn't. DC and Marvel were tired of dealing with returnable books thru the crooked, mainstream distribution syndicates, that by the late 1970's weren't even distributing a lot of the books they received... some where wholesaling the books right out to the early comic book distributors, and the companies were getting a taste of a direct market deal thru their deal with Whitman publishing for the three packs. Guaranteed sales were the easy route and they went for it.

 

The types of stores you mentioned stopped carrying comics at first because they were too cheap for the space allocated for them. They were nearly magazine size and cost a fraction of what a magazine costs. Why not just put in more magazines? Which they did, at the expense of comics.

 

But by relegating them to the direct market back in the mid-to-late 1980's an entire generation has grown up without comic books around.

 

Jump to 1997-1999:

 

A few stores start to sell graphic novels and tpbs, and there have been many articles, some of which have been referenced here about the success story that graphic novels/tpbs have been having in the bookstore market. Manga is a cultural fad, and they are selling, which is why they get more shelf space. Usually a rack of their own beside or near the graphic novel section.

 

That sounds like psychobabble to me.

 

You just validated everything I said. Manga is cool with the kids that are social, and the audience for superheroes gets video games because they have more control of that than they do of their lives. Comic books have lost out to both segments of kids because the stories being written cater to adults who want their superheroes to grow with them. They have been made safe for adults. Each generation wants something unique. In the comic realm, manga has become the mainstream entertainement of kids as it is different from traditional comics while video games have become the entertainment and escape of the "solitary" individual.

 

Not really. I don't buy into your kids don't buy comics because adults do argument. Comics were always inter-generational - passed on by older kids to younger kids, not rebellious. Removing comics from the mainstream (for whatever reason) cut that traditional pattern right out.

 

I give comics to my cousins and nephew and niece because I have access to them, but they don't have any place available to them to get comics other than thru me. Since their friends don't have access to them they aren't something they can share with their peers. Some of them have sought comic shops when they were older and continued collecting, others haven't.

 

Who gives a whatever to what comic stores cater to if they are few and are far between - accessible to only a small segment of the population in any area?

 

Since my LCS is located right in the heart of a residential area we see a lot of kids buying comics. They buy superhero comics right there with the adults, but they hit the store on different times of the day. Adults come in later in the day after work ends, while kids come in during lunch break and after school but before dinner. The worlds only occassionally overlap. The adults are travelling larger distances (often across town) to buy their comics, while the kids are always locals

 

And I don't buy the Manga as substitution for superhero argument because the people that buy manga are doing it because manga is available where comics are not (and never have been for the kids reading manga). They are also a different audience than the ones that would have traditionally sought out comics, and as I said before, it's a social phenomenon... pokemon and yu-gi-oh for tweens and teens.

[Kevin Boyd]

Another thing to consider... european comics.

 

I was talking with Paul Ryan when he was in town for the convention and he was telling me all about the huge success he was having in Europe drawing The Phantom for the dutch publisher Egmont. Sales on his Phantom issues in Europe make the monthly sales on books like Avengers and the FF here in North America look like the sales CrossGen books were getting when compared to top of the charts Marvel books (something like 5 to 1).

 

In Europe, comics didn't withdraw into a direct market scenario and are still published there in big numbers with Disney comics leading the way, followed by Asterix, TinTin, et al. Kids still read comics, but so do adults. The only age barriers are in the types of comics people read at different times in their lives.

[Kevin Boyd]

Okay,while out on Long Island today I ran a quick pop quiz. I took it upon myself to stop in a few youth oriented stores and after introdrocing myself to the owners or managers ,asked them if they would be willing to carry some comics on a fully returnable basis,if racks were provided.Out of six stores I was met with one no and five maybes.When I mentioned them buying the books outright I was given three no's and two maybes.One store said it would commit to a small order.Four of the stores were quite interested in T-shirts of comic characters if they were returnable.

Doesn't mean anything really,but its interesting. Why not try it yourself.

 

 

Re: returnables

 

Why did the one store say no? Did they give a reason? What about the maybes?

 

Re: non-returnables

 

Completely understandable that more would say no. It's asking them to assume the risk for items they don't know if they can sell or not. I'm surprised that two still said maybe and one was willing to take the plunge.

 

Diamond should get out there and send promotional catalogs out to try to get new accounts. Maybe they could have starter accounts with recommended packages of books that they think will have appeal to general consumers. That's a good idea - start a drive for new accounts. Offer preliminary starter discounts to get them interested. They could even offer a tradeback program - the books that don't sell can be sent back to Diamond for more credit and offered as a reorder option for regular Diamond accounts at a higher discount.

 

T-shirt requests are interesting. Graffitti designs should get in there with their line of clothing and Kevin Smith related merchandise. They would do very well with that stuff (Clerks inaction figures, posters, etc.). I'm sure they could even sell a few of their Clerks related tpbs to these places.

[shadroch]

I believe there is amarket out there tat doesn't even know comics still exist. So many times when I mention that I deal comics,people express shock that hey are still published.Adults recall seeing them in candy stores and 7-11s but since they disappeared,they assume tey are no longer published.Someone recently commented that they should make a comic out of the Spider-Man movie.I thought he was being sarcastic but at 25ish,he was aware of Spidey from cartoons,videogames and t-shirts.Had no idea Spidey got his start or continued to star in monthly comics.

[Kevin Boyd]

I hear it all of the time from co-workers and other contacts at my Research job at the hospital...if I discuss my hobbies they say things like "oh, they still publish comic books?" or "I didn't know they still made those things".

 

Some of my co-workers know that I work on a "comic convention" - they think I work on a comedy festival!

[UnrulyAppendage]

Not really. I don't buy into your kids don't buy comics because adults do argument. Comics were always inter-generational - passed on by older kids to younger kids, not rebellious. Removing comics from the mainstream (for whatever reason) cut that traditional pattern right out.

 

If you don't buy into, then why do you say it's passed down by older kids to younger kids instead of adults to kids? The younger kids want to be cool like the older kids, not cool like adults. The older kids do not think comic books are cool. So, it's not passed down to the younger kids.

 

When Marvel came out with their Silver Age lineup, it was counter culture. DC superheroes had become mainstream. Marvel decided to put more realism into the comics and part of that was fighting the system. Spider-Man fought against an unsympathetic city and the X-Men fought against biggotry. They made comics cool again. Now, the adults are reading comics. Kids like to rebel. Comics are stale and kids are going to alternative comic forms. Granted, it's not downright rebellion, but they just do not want to read about characters and follow a style their parents did.

[Kevin Boyd]

Alright, then I will say it clearly.

 

1. I am an adult and I pass along comics to kids in my family.

2. The kids like the comics.

3. The kids can't buy comics for themselves (no stores with comics near them).

4. Kids ask me to get them more comics. (Emphasis on "give").

 

No rebellion. No "Uncle Kev reads comics and he is an adult therefore I don't want to".

 

Usually it's "Thanks!" or when does "Spider-Man #7 come out?" (meaning Essential Spider-Man #7)

[Alberto1975]

Here's my 2 cents of what I think Marvel should do:

1. Reduce the number of series they have going on. I remember 4-5 years ago, when they released USM, and Daredevil was a great hit. Back then they had probably half the number of issues on the market on a given month. They were focusing on quality. Even Joe Q said at some point that the reason Marvel failed in the 90s was because of too much [!@#%^&^] on the market. But now they're reverting to the same stuff. This brings me to...

2. Probably a change is needed in Marvel. I think Joe Q did great at the beginning of his EIC tenure. However, I think now he's going back to the way Marvel was on the 90s. Comics need to stay fresh, and unless you have a guy like Stan Lee, usually having someone stay as EIC for a long time these days ends up affecting quality.

3. Make sure you can stay on schedule. An occasional slip is fine, obviously, but I feel like more and more comics have out of control schedules. This affects people and their finances, even if it sounds like a small amount of money. One month I could get 2 issues of the same comics, and then have to wait 4 months for the next one. Is it so hard to wait until the comic is finished (at least for miniseries) before starting to release it? We all know the examples of Spider-Man and Black Cat, and I think Daredevil Father is going in the same direction. Back in the 80s, if someone couldn't deliver a story, at least they would throw in a fill-in issue so you could get your monthly fix.

4. Stick to short stories. Not always, but regularly. I love epic stories sometimes that take a few months to end, and I think we need to keep some of those. But I don't think every comic every month needs to have those long stories. I like the old 1 issue stories where Spider-Man would just stop the Vulture from robbing a bank, or stuff like that. Try to mix stuff up. Maybe even some titles can be designed to have long stories, while other titles stay with short stories. We do have a bunch of Spider-Man and X-Men titles, after all.

 

In my perfect world, I would probably keep the following series if it were up to me, because I am enjoying them (despite some of the issues mentioned above):

1. Daredevil (I love Bendis, even if people hate him, his stories are great)

2. Avengers (same as above)

3. Captain America (I like to see the Red Skull back)

4. Iron Man (stop the government/political stuff)

5. All Ultimate series (specially USM and UF4, although UXM is good too)

6. All X-Men series (I think Astonishing is great, even though I would have like Colossus to stay dead, I think the end of issue 4 was great)

7. Fantastic Four (I think the Marvel Knights 4 is personally not needed, although it's not a bad read)

8. Supreme Power (I am not sure about Doctor Spectrum as a series, although I thought the first issue was good)

9. Exiles (pretty enjoyable and humorous)

10. Wolverine (although I am not enjoying the new direction as much as before)

11. Mystique (I am enjoying those stories too)

 

Some of the stuff that personally I think should be eliminated:

1. Alpha Flight

2. Amazing Fantasy

3. Cable and Deadpool

4. Captain America & The Falcon

5. District X

6. Emma Frost

7. Excalibur

8. Guardians

9. Invaders

10. Marvel Age stuff (although I understand they want to bring in younger readers)

11. StarJammers

12. X-Force

13. New X-Men: Academy X

 

Finally, I think they have too many limited series that are really not needed. Do we really need stuff like Madrox and Jubilee and Nightcrawler and Sabretooth all at the same time?

 

Anyway, this was a little longer than I expected, but that's my opinion

[duncan36]

Its really an impossible situation for Marvel, they pay lip service to keeping the quality intact and slowly rebuilding the Marvel Universe. Yet if they dont achieve their quarterly profit goals, WallStreet will absolutely gut them and all the Marvel bigwigs will see their shares drop 30% in a week.

It takes a man of impeccable character and faith to make Marvel comics go the right way under those conditions. Obviously JoeQ is not that 'man'(use that term liberally).

[Silver Surfer]

Its really an impossible situation for Marvel, they pay lip service to keeping the quality intact and slowly rebuilding the Marvel Universe. Yet if they dont achieve their quarterly profit goals, WallStreet will absolutely gut them and all the Marvel bigwigs will see their shares drop 30% in a week.

It takes a man of impeccable character and faith to make Marvel comics go the right way under those conditions. Obviously JoeQ is not that 'man'(use that term liberally).

 

Well said. I think Joe Q's only concern is to hit his performance bonus targets so he will relaunch, restart as many times as he can before he pulls the chute and bails.

[shadroch]

Its really an impossible situation for Marvel, they pay lip service to keeping the quality intact and slowly rebuilding the Marvel Universe. Yet if they dont achieve their quarterly profit goals, WallStreet will absolutely gut them and all the Marvel bigwigs will see their shares drop 30% in a week.

It takes a man of impeccable character and faith to make Marvel comics go the right way under those conditions. Obviously JoeQ is not that 'man'(use that term liberally).

 

Yet,last quarter Marvel beat its mark by almost 40% but the stock prices still got slammed.

[Silver Surfer]

Some of the stuff that personally I think should be eliminated:

 

9. Invaders?

 

It just started?

[Alberto1975]

Invaders just started, personally the first issue sucked, and I didn't like the stuff in the Avengers where they introduced them either.

To me it seems one of those things where Marvel is just throwing out titles hoping they stick.

It's just a series that personally I don't think brings anything to the comics world...

 

Just my 2 cents

[SpideySense-migration]

Here's my 2 cents of what I think Marvel should do:

1. Reduce the number of series they have going on. I remember 4-5 years ago, when they released USM, and Daredevil was a great hit. Back then they had probably half the number of issues on the market on a given month. They were focusing on quality. Even Joe Q said at some point that the reason Marvel failed in the 90s was because of too much [!@#%^&^] on the market. But now they're reverting to the same stuff. This brings me to...

2. Probably a change is needed in Marvel. I think Joe Q did great at the beginning of his EIC tenure. However, I think now he's going back to the way Marvel was on the 90s. Comics need to stay fresh, and unless you have a guy like Stan Lee, usually having someone stay as EIC for a long time these days ends up affecting quality.

3. Make sure you can stay on schedule. An occasional slip is fine, obviously, but I feel like more and more comics have out of control schedules. This affects people and their finances, even if it sounds like a small amount of money. One month I could get 2 issues of the same comics, and then have to wait 4 months for the next one. Is it so hard to wait until the comic is finished (at least for miniseries) before starting to release it? We all know the examples of Spider-Man and Black Cat, and I think Daredevil Father is going in the same direction. Back in the 80s, if someone couldn't deliver a story, at least they would throw in a fill-in issue so you could get your monthly fix.

4. Stick to short stories. Not always, but regularly. I love epic stories sometimes that take a few months to end, and I think we need to keep some of those. But I don't think every comic every month needs to have those long stories. I like the old 1 issue stories where Spider-Man would just stop the Vulture from robbing a bank, or stuff like that. Try to mix stuff up. Maybe even some titles can be designed to have long stories, while other titles stay with short stories. We do have a bunch of Spider-Man and X-Men titles, after all.

 

In my perfect world, I would probably keep the following series if it were up to me, because I am enjoying them (despite some of the issues mentioned above):

1. Daredevil (I love Bendis, even if people hate him, his stories are great)

2. Avengers (same as above)

3. Captain America (I like to see the Red Skull back)

4. Iron Man (stop the government/political stuff)

5. All Ultimate series (specially USM and UF4, although UXM is good too)

6. All X-Men series (I think Astonishing is great, even though I would have like Colossus to stay dead, I think the end of issue 4 was great)

7. Fantastic Four (I think the Marvel Knights 4 is personally not needed, although it's not a bad read)

8. Supreme Power (I am not sure about Doctor Spectrum as a series, although I thought the first issue was good)

9. Exiles (pretty enjoyable and humorous)

10. Wolverine (although I am not enjoying the new direction as much as before)

11. Mystique (I am enjoying those stories too)

 

Some of the stuff that personally I think should be eliminated:

1. Alpha Flight

2. Amazing Fantasy

3. Cable and Deadpool

4. Captain America & The Falcon

5. District X

6. Emma Frost

7. Excalibur

8. Guardians

9. Invaders

10. Marvel Age stuff (although I understand they want to bring in younger readers)

11. StarJammers

12. X-Force

13. New X-Men: Academy X

 

Finally, I think they have too many limited series that are really not needed. Do we really need stuff like Madrox and Jubilee and Nightcrawler and Sabretooth all at the same time?

 

Anyway, this was a little longer than I expected, but that's my opinion

 

Ditto to what he said.

[UnrulyAppendage]

Alright, then I will say it clearly.

 

1. I am an adult and I pass along comics to kids in my family.

2. The kids like the comics.

3. The kids can't buy comics for themselves (no stores with comics near them).

4. Kids ask me to get them more comics. (Emphasis on "give").

 

No rebellion. No "Uncle Kev reads comics and he is an adult therefore I don't want to".

 

Usually it's "Thanks!" or when does "Spider-Man #7 come out?" (meaning Essential Spider-Man #7)

 

This doesn't support what is happening in the industry as a whole. Kids do not care for traditional superhero comic books. If they did, Target and Walmart would have bigger sections because they put out products that sell. That's as clear as I can state it. I do hope it turns around, but the numbers do not show it happening. I would love to see kids get involved more and what you are doing is great.