Moral dilemma…should I say something?

[ubiquiti]

Also - honestly, it is basic economics..What dealer would ever pay full guide for any book in any collection(unless they knew they could sell it for more).

I know the local shop gives people 40-50% of guide on Silver/Bronze and like 1% for most moderns. I don't have a problem with that - if someone wanted more - there's always eBay and comiclink or something.

[Ariamus]

OK, sorry for being such a Newb, but what's this story with Chuck and the Mile High Collection, et all. that everyone's talking about? Is there a resource of information on this?

[fantastic_four]

http://www.comicrestoration.freeservers.com/article1.htm

[comicinvestor-migration]

A long-time comic store owner in my area told me that Edgar Church's widow later sued Chuck to get some of the money he received for the Mile Highs, and that the judge ruled in favor of Chuck basically because "a deal's a deal." I have no idea if that's true; has anybody else heard that?

 

I heard much the same story (except it was the family estate, not the widow exclusively), and if true, I cannot understand why Chuck wasn't liable. He was brought in due to his role as an industry expert (they called comic shops) and it wasn't like they had the MH collection out in a yard sale. In that role, the buyer who has industry knowledge of market values has an obligation to not scam unknowing buyers with a lowball offer (remember the MH collection was purchased at or under ORIGINAL COVER PRICE).

 

I'd bet my bottom dollar that the fact they were "only funny books" played into this. Here's an example of a similar operation, that has netted offenders heavy fines and jail time:

 

A little old lady is ready for the retirement home, so calls a real estate company for an evaluation/offer on her house. The agent states that $50K is the best she can get, and that he can buy outright now. Not knowing any better and trusting his expert opinion, the old lady takes the cash.

 

Later she sees the house listed for $12 million, her family gets a lawyer and someone is in major . That industry expert knowingly mislead the lady, when the "expert" was brought into the equation, only due to their industry experience, know-how and "expert status".

 

If the Church's had been taken in the above manner, they'd be very likely to get a settlement (especially since everyone knows about real estate values), but I highly doubt that "funny books" would be accorded the same level of respect in a court of law, at least back then.

[ninanina]

Mouse, you dug yourself out of deep hole with that one.

How did you know mcgowan30 and utech_inc were the same person? You some kinda "Detective" or something?

[aardvark88]

I love stories about the Big Find. Bulldog Comics bought 1 BARNfull of vfnm raw comics for about 10 cents each 10 yrs ago & promptly resold long boxes full to other dealers at San Diego Con. All a buyer has to do is be in the right place at the right time. Be the highest bidder w/ CASH on hand rather than 200 long boxes of overstock to trade for the find of a lifetime. It's called Capitalism.

[drbanner]

How did you know mcgowan30 and utech_inc were the same person?

 

User's profile...

[drbanner]

It's called Capitalism.

 

I'm with Odin88 on this one...if I could buy the MH collection at 10 cents a pop, I'd go for it, no problem. Dealers strive to buy low, sell high, and that's exactly what Chuck did.

 

Or should I sue Metropolis Comics for $350 since the Strange Adventures 208 that they bought from me for $400 was recently listed by Heritage for $750, and picked up at that price by Mark Wilson. Or what about the comics I recently sold gman that he flipped...maybe I should sue him too? Or maybe I should just be quiet since I'm 50% Norwegian/Danish and the English are going to sue me for the Viking invasion/takeover of England before 1000 AD? Or maybe I should sue the French since William the Conquerer was a Norman King, invaded England, and conquered the Viking progeny...

[Illiterati-migration]

Or maybe I should just be quiet since I'm 50% Norwegian/Danish and the English are going to sue me for the Viking invasion/takeover of England before 1000 AD? Or maybe I should sue the French since William the Conquerer was a Norman King, invaded England, and conquered the Viking progeny...

 

Reparations, Banner! Reparations!

[comicinvestor-migration]

I'm with Odin88 on this one...if I could buy the MH collection at 10 cents a pop, I'd go for it, no problem. Dealers strive to buy low, sell high, and that's exactly what Chuck did.

 

Have fun in the afterlife. P.S. remember to wear shorts and take lots of sunblock.

 

Or should I sue Metropolis Comics for $350 since the Strange Adventures 208 that they bought from me for $400 was recently listed by Heritage for $750, and picked up at that price by Mark Wilson.

 

So WTF does that have to do with anything? I assume you know the business and went in with some level of knowledge?

 

If you were an old granny with no knowledge of comics, who called Metropolis up for their expert opinion, and were told that 10 cents was the best they could do, then you'd have a real breach of ethics.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Exactly Mr. Banner, I'm with you and Mouse on the Mile High/Edgar Church find/issue.

 

[This is for the people pointing fingers] Ok true belivers here is a quote from an article written by Matt Nelson:

 

"Examining the comics closer, he realized the collection consisted of full runs of Golden Age comics--and the condition of the books was incredible, better than he had ever seen. Trying to hide his excitement Chuck accepted the man's asking price, $2,000 for roughly 22,000 comics (9 cents a comic) and left, determined to raise the funds immediately. A phone call was placed to Burrell Rowe, owner of Houston's Camelot and one of the biggest dealers in the nation at that time. Rowe granted Chuck the $2,000 to buy the collection, but stipulated that in return he was to receive $10,000 in comics (priced at guide) from the collection."

 

So I ask in light of the above paragraph, did Chuck have the funds to buy the collection or did he need help?

 

The collection was purchased in 1977 folks, NOT 2002. Many things have changed since then. I buy TONS of comics on eBay for less than cover price, should I send these sellers more money because I'm getting such a good deal? Get real my fellow collectors, shake the self-rightousness off, and examine yourselves.

 

Please don't misunderstand me my fellow collectors, I'm no die-hard fan of Mile High Comics, I've NEVER ordered a comic from them, I've NEVER visited a Mile High store, and I believe the stories about Overgrading. However, I DO realize the importance of the Church collection, AND the importance of Mile High to the modern day comic book store. Chuck was selling comic books when comic books were just starting to be considered "collectable". So give the guy a break, and have some understanding!

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

You know, this thread reminds me of why I took a break from the forums. A bunch of selfish, small-minded, conscienceless "dealers" who have no problem in low-balling some old lady for her stash of hyper-valuable items. I personally don't see how something as inane as a stack of comics is worth flushing your morals and ethics down the toilet.

 

I can't imagine myself walking into a NM Golden Age hoarde and offering cover price or less for the stash. Even if I couldn't afford it outright, I'd immediately sell some prime ones off and make restitution as best I could. If the money really started rolling in later, I'd take the high road and set up a scholarship fund for aspiring artists, to put the credit where credit is due for preserving this immense and highly profitable find.

 

If a collection made me conceivably millions of dollars, who wouldn't give something back to the person who made the find possible? And I'm not talking about some for-hire book or art tour, both of which are profit-making angles, but a significant payback for the right reasons?

 

What I wouldn't do is sit on my high horse, feeling the pangs of guilt eating away at my insides, and write drivel that places this in a favorable light. How anyone can do this and sleep at night is beyond me, but I guess you'd have to be one stone cold SOB to begin with.

 

You all sicken me.

[FlyingDonut]

And welcome back to you!

 

Just a question - when the guy said "take it for $2,000", what was he supposed to do? Say, "no, I'd rather pay you $10,000?" I think that's a key thing in the story, and we don't know it totally - who made the offer. Did Chuck offer the guy $2K, or did the guy say "I want $2K"? I think that makes a huge difference.

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

Regardless, I state for the record that I have bought comics, found valuble, key issues hidden in there, sold them and personally visited the people and gave them an extra check.

 

That's fact, and if I ever happened upon a multi-million dollar collection, the original sellers would be made rich, retroactively.

 

I may seem a bit gruff, but I'm a real straight-arrow, am not in the least greedy, and despise scam artists who openly steal and then laugh about it later.

[Illiterati-migration]

You all sicken me.

 

Indeed. But, the question is, how much is the right price to pay? That is, if you want to be COMPLETELY fair (and apparently you do-- and I don't fault you that), would you not want to just offer to sell off this helpless, hapless old woman's collection for her? That's the only way she'll get a fair price, right? You're bashing the "dealers" here, but the first course of action you would take if you couldn't afford the books would be to "immediately sell some prime ones off and make restitution as best I could." So why not just bypass the whole sordid affair and just offer to sell the books for her for free? Oh... but you've got your ethical bases covered here: " If the money really started rolling in later, I'd take the high road and set up a scholarship fund for aspiring artists, to put the credit where credit is due for preserving this immense and highly profitable find." Okay, so the money starts rolling in (because the books are so amazing that apparently people are paying admission fees just to come look at books that the general public doesn't give a hoot about anyway ... or are you SELLING them, "Dealer"?), now you're apparently MAKING money on the deal... so how is that fair? Where's the old lady now?? Why isn't SHE the one making money on these books?? Why isn't SHE sending the books on a cross-country tour?? Any money YOU make would, in fact, have been money SHE would have been making had you not decided to take the books off her hands. You can't have it both ways. Either you're going to make money by offering less than the value of the books, or you're going to help her sell the books... or hey, just advise her that she should hold on to them and sell them at her convenience.

 

The point is, it's just not as cut-and-dried as you want to make it out to be. Frankly, it's a little ironic that you're jumping all over people for being on their "high horses" while you're trying to look down on everyone else.

 

[ninanina]

There was a lot of greed in the industry back then, just like there is now. Chuck (trying to hide his excitement - Why?) Burrell Rowe may have had the funds to properly compensate the owners of the collection and didn't. Like Chuck, he took advantage of a situation.

 

Examine yourselves?

 

I can. If I bought the collection I did 2 years ago for $2000.00 or even $5000.00 taking advantage of an old lady, I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

 

The Tons of comics you sell on e-bay have a multitude of people bidding on them. It's not a fair comparison to what happened with the Mile High collection. Chuck shut the door on any competition and made a deal on the side with Burrell Rowe to set up his future at the cost of Edgar Church's legacy - pure and simple.

 

Have some understanding?

 

I do, see my above comments.

 

At least your not a fan of his, and I do respect your point of view. You are at least admitting that Chuck did not treat the people fair, MOUSE can't even do that.

[comicinvestor-migration]

Nevermind, you guys are beyind redemption. If you can't see that buying a million dollar collection for $2K is just plain wrong, then you're all lost causes.

 

Would sending $100K to the widow be so hard? How about $50K for a EC scholoraship? Or does that not leave enough profit in your pockets Khaos?

[Illiterati-migration]

Would sending $100K to the widow be so hard? How about $50K for a EC scholoraship? Or does that not leave enough profit in your pockets Khaos?

 

Where did I say what I would do here? I didn't.

 

You, however, have stated repeatedly that you would profit on the deal... I was just wondering HOW you would do that without ripping off the poor old woman?

 

I mean, sure, $100,000 is a nice chunk of change, but when she COULD have had $1,000,000 if you'd only told her you'd help her out with selling the books? Hey, maybe she would have given you a nice, shiny nickel for your troubles! Why, if you're so concerned about morality and ethics, are you even entertaining the idea of profiting off of her loss? Get a job. That's a good way to make money and it's much less directly profiting off the ignorance of others.

 

I understand why you're upset. I'd be mad if I were just proven to be a hypocrite too.

[Bonds25]

Chuck was unethical by paying her such a low price and then never paying her more. He scammed her, plain and simple. He should be ashamed of himself! (and yes, I'm serious).

[FlyingDonut]

You know, I sort of shined on this post initially, but after some thinking about it, your high-handed moralizing really pisses me off.

 

Let me be clear - I have my problems with Chuck and Mile High, the same as everybody else, and I'll go out on a limb and agree with you that maybe he had an "obligation" to give the "widow" some cash (and let us also be clear, Edgar Church's heirs were approximately 5 hours from throwing the whole thing into a dumpster, and also are not the penury stricken people you make them out to be).

 

But your holier-than-thou attitude towards other people here makes me just want to puke. Please tell me what the appropriate percentage of profit I can make on something that won't "sicken" you? Is it 40%? 50%? 60%? 200%? 1000%? Please, tell me.

 

I guess you're just a better person than I am, for "personally visiting" someone and giving them a check after you've discovered a "hidden gem" in the books. I bought a collection and posted it on these boards for everybody to see. I paid $200 for it (the price the owner of the books quoted me). I've realized about $500 so far out of it. At what point do I have to "give the person a check" so I don't have to put sunblock on when I leave this veil of tears.

 

Please, CI. The highest horse on the boards is you. And I'm going to call you on it.