Sellers are now using projected grades?

[Hamlet]

My point is that it doesn't have to be 100% to be worth something to the buyer.

 

If you're looking at two books that are currently at the same grade, but one appears to have a decent chance of an upgrade after a press, aren't you going to be willing to pay more for the potentially upgradable book? It may not be alot more, but I think most people would pay at least some premium for that potential.

 

Certainly all of the crack/press/resubmit people running around have shown that willingness. How many times does a book go for a big premium to GPA in an auction only to show up with a new CGC serial number in the next auction?

 

I don't know any pressers who can bat 100 on pressing candidates, much less know with 100% certainty what the grade outcome will be. Go back to the listing and see not one but seven raw/uncertified books listed with "projected" grades and GPA's on the grades.

 

Joey or Matt are the only ones I can recall being members here whose expertise I would defer to qualify/confirm the above bolded statement.

 

I don't see any difference whatsoever between the example I provided and what the seller here was attempting, except the obvious difference that in the example I provided the seller was trying to pass off one certified item and the listing here had seven raw comics.

[blazingbob]

You bring up the buyer.

 

I am asking why is the seller entitled to charge for his "opinion". That is called a proscreen. CCS charges $10 for that opinion which is if you want to pay somebody for that is the most you should pay.

 

 

[revat]

In a raw sale without projecting CGC grades, or even post press grades, you take your OWN knowledge of comics from your OWN experience, your own KNOWLEDGE of the market, your OWN knowledge of your finances, your OWN level of risk aversion, your OWN comfortability with the seller (if any) and evaluate the information given to you by the seller, whether it be scans, grades, history, related (or not related) pricing or sales data, and YOU make the decision. YOU can CHOOSE to buy, negotiate, or pass, or ask for more information.

 

A person can choose a myriad of reasons to overprice something. Maybe you've got a $4500 comic but your sister needs to have $5000 surgery tomorrow, so you shoot for $5000. Is there anything wrong with that? If you state that and you lie about it, then yes, that's pretty unethical. What if you paid $5000 for it last week (and still have the receipt), but you overpaid a bit but now need the money back. What if you bought it thinking you'd press and regrade, but found out that your favorite presser is having family issues and that economy turnaround times are 4 months and suddenly you need the money? Is it ok to say in good faith that you believe it will press higher, and project (not guarantee) a grade? Again, I really believe its about trusting your seller for most people, and scammers and punks have soured us.

 

But the truth is, most people have SOME people they would trust enough to purchase a pressable book for SOME premium, and for many people that premium might be at least LOOSELY related on the post press GPA value. Yes, I get that doesn't apply to everyone, maybe not even most. But certainly it doesn't sound THAT unreasonable that SOME people would find the data useful? Ultimately will still have to judge for ourselves what is worth it to us individually.

[VintageComics]

You bring up the buyer.

 

I am asking why is the seller entitled to charge for his "opinion". That is called a proscreen. CCS charges $10 for that opinion which is if you want to pay somebody for that is the most you should pay.

 

 

Doesn't every seller charge for his product based on what his opinion says it should bring? Whether they are projecting pressed grades or just straight out grading the books, it's all just an opinion, whether it's CCS, CGC, Bob Storms or Roy Delic.

 

I'm not saying what the Original Seller of the books made the best choices, but doesn't he have the right to describe and price the books as he so sees them / chooses (as long as he's not misleading or being intentionally fraudulent? I don't think he was being fraudulent at this point, maybe just in a hurry or over zealous / inexperienced.

 

 

And to be fair, CGC's inconsistency puts another spin on everything.

 

Revat's responses seem the most reasonable. Ultimately, you either have the expertise to trust yourself or you trust (or eventually learn to trust) sellers who know their stuff.

 

So it really just is a choice in the marketplace - choose to support the seller or choose to ignore the seller.

 

And if this is your feeling about it, that makes sense and its perfectly natural. A person can just move past the sale or try to negotiate lower prices. Doesn't sound like something that needs regulating. If the market doesn't like this type of behavior, it will self regulate over time.

 

But what if a dealer you you trust had two copies,, same grade. He'll cut you a deal on anything you buy anyways. He's got one which he tells you will probably press to a higher grade. Some of of you are basically saying he shouldn't tell you and shouldn't charge you more for it. And that's fine, but certainly you understand that SOME people would want to know and would pay more for the pressable copy.

 

But if one seller has a right to sell that way, shouldn't each seller have the same right? It's actually more a matter of trusting a seller than anything else. All these other questions stem from there. Every one has different risk aversion, some people thrive in the gamble.

 

I personally don't think it's ideal to sell based on post press grades, but feels like more of a buyer beware situation vs a lets regulate situation

 

In a raw sale without projecting CGC grades, or even post press grades, you take your OWN knowledge of comics from your OWN experience, your own KNOWLEDGE of the market, your OWN knowledge of your finances, your OWN level of risk aversion, your OWN comfortability with the seller (if any) and evaluate the information given to you by the seller, whether it be scans, grades, history, related (or not related) pricing or sales data, and YOU make the decision. YOU can CHOOSE to buy, negotiate, or pass, or ask for more information.

 

A person can choose a myriad of reasons to overprice something. Maybe you've got a $4500 comic but your sister needs to have $5000 surgery tomorrow, so you shoot for $5000. Is there anything wrong with that? If you state that and you lie about it, then yes, that's pretty unethical. What if you paid $5000 for it last week (and still have the receipt), but you overpaid a bit but now need the money back. What if you bought it thinking you'd press and regrade, but found out that your favorite presser is having family issues and that economy turnaround times are 4 months and suddenly you need the money? Is it ok to say in good faith that you believe it will press higher, and project (not guarantee) a grade? Again, I really believe its about trusting your seller for most people, and scammers and punks have soured us.

 

But the truth is, most people have SOME people they would trust enough to purchase a pressable book for SOME premium, and for many people that premium might be at least LOOSELY related on the post press GPA value. Yes, I get that doesn't apply to everyone, maybe not even most. But certainly it doesn't sound THAT unreasonable that SOME people would find the data useful? Ultimately will still have to judge for ourselves what is worth it to us individually.

[revat]

You bring up the buyer.

 

I am asking why is the seller entitled to charge for his "opinion". That is called a proscreen. CCS charges $10 for that opinion which is if you want to pay somebody for that is the most you should pay.

 

 

what if there was someone you trusted more than CCS, would you pay them more? What if it was a on an AF 15, would you pay a little more for the screening? Its too subjective to make blanket statements like that.

 

Sometimes it makes sense to think of comics like an investment.

 

Lets say I just bought raw COMIC XXX which for $4500 which I believe to be a raw 9.4, and I bought it based on my own imperfect knowledge and research, but I genuinely it believe it will improve to with a press to a with a 25% chance of 9.6, 50% chance of 9.8, and 25% of 9.4, 1% chance of PLOD. The value CGC 9.6 GPA is $5500, the CGC 9.8 Value is $8000 for GPA. I could send for pressing and slabbing fast track, but that could still very easily take two months door to door. But I usually like to submit in bigger batches for economical reasons, and my dog needs surgery, and its the slow season for my business (its December in Boston and I own an ice cream store). Is it THAT unreasonable that I quote the post press GPA prices? They played a factor in my decision to purchase, is it SOOO unreasonable that I might think they might play a factor to someone else I'm trying to sell to, regardless of the price I'm trying to sell it for?

 

Really doesn't it all come down to whether or not you trust the seller?

[joeypost]

You bring up the buyer.

 

I am asking why is the seller entitled to charge for his "opinion". That is called a proscreen. CCS charges $10 for that opinion which is if you want to pay somebody for that is the most you should pay.

 

 

what if there was someone you trusted more than CCS, would you pay them more? What if it was a on an AF 15, would you pay a little more for the screening? Its too subjective to make blanket statements like that.

 

Sometimes it makes sense to think of comics like an investment.

 

Lets say I just bought raw COMIC XXX which for $4500 which I believe to be a raw 9.4, and I bought it based on my own imperfect knowledge and research, but I genuinely it believe it will improve to with a press to a with a 25% chance of 9.6, 50% chance of 9.8, and 25% of 9.4, 1% chance of PLOD. The value CGC 9.6 GPA is $5500, the CGC 9.8 Value is $8000 for GPA. I could send for pressing and slabbing fast track, but that could still very easily take two months door to door. But I usually like to submit in bigger batches for economical reasons, and my dog needs surgery, and its the slow season for my business (its December in Boston and I own an ice cream store). Is it THAT unreasonable that I quote the post press GPA prices? They played a factor in my decision to purchase, is it SOOO unreasonable that I might think they might play a factor to someone else I'm trying to sell to, regardless of the price I'm trying to sell it for?

 

Really doesn't it all come down to whether or not you trust the seller?

 

You own an ice cream shop and never told me

[VintageComics]

I wouldn't trust what he says.

 

[blazingbob]

Trusting the seller is not something I factor in when paying more for a book.

 

My opinion is worth something considering that I've had Matt setup at my booth and if anybody knows his timeliness at shows basically made me learn a lot more about "proscreening" if he wanted to have happy customers.

 

I buy based on risk/reward. If the book is priced fairly and is nicer than the grade, good reward. If it doesn't grade what my "opinion" states I run the risk of selling it for what I paid for it or less depending on market conditions. If I pay for the next grade I take all the risk, I minimize the reward. Seller takes no risk, gets most of the reward. Not exactly what I call a win/win situation.

 

A 25% chance of a 9.6, 50% chance of a 9.8, 25% it is a 9.4 is a risk/reward ratio in your favor. You are talking the potential of a 2 grade point leap which frankly is not something I see very often. Does a 9.4 really sell for $4500 or is it $4000? $3500. You are "at risk" for $500/$1000 loss versus $1000 "profit" less pressing/grading fees if it comes back 9.6. The big win is if it comes back 9.8 for your $3000. Do upgraders take those risks. Absolutely but like any gambler don't tell me just about your wins. Tell me about those losses. And frankly using a 1% restored risk is not really a number I would use. Depending on the seller that number goes up/down.

 

 

 

[DeliBebek]

Trusting the seller is not something I factor in when paying more for a book.

 

My opinion is worth something considering that I've had Matt setup at my booth and if anybody knows his timeliness at shows basically made me learn a lot more about "proscreening" if he wanted to have happy customers.

 

I buy based on risk/reward. If the book is priced fairly and is nicer than the grade, good reward. If it doesn't grade what my "opinion" states I run the risk of selling it for what I paid for it or less depending on market conditions. If I pay for the next grade I take all the risk, I minimize the reward. Seller takes no risk, gets most of the reward. Not exactly what I call a win/win situation.

 

A 25% chance of a 9.6, 50% chance of a 9.8, 25% it is a 9.4 is a risk/reward ratio in your favor. You are talking the potential of a 2 grade point leap which frankly is not something I see very often. Does a 9.4 really sell for $4500 or is it $4000? $3500. You are "at risk" for $500/$1000 loss versus $1000 "profit" less pressing/grading fees if it comes back 9.6. The big win is if it comes back 9.8 for your $3000. Do upgraders take those risks. Absolutely but like any gambler don't tell me just about your wins. Tell me about those losses. And frankly using a 1% restored risk is not really a number I would use. Depending on the seller that number goes up/down.

 

 

Blazingbob, you're talking from experience here. Ridiculous! Theoreticals and hypotheticals are how we develop the principles by which we engage in a systematic evaluation of our estimated profit margins.

 

Experience, schmexperience!

[comicwiz]

If you're looking at two books that are currently at the same grade, but one appears to have a decent chance of an upgrade after a press, aren't you going to be willing to pay more for the potentially upgradable book? It may not be alot more, but I think most people would pay at least some premium for that potential.

 

Certainly all of the crack/press/resubmit people running around have shown that willingness. How many times does a book go for a big premium to GPA in an auction only to show up with a new CGC serial number in the next auction?

 

Without all the jumping around you're doing to substantiate your claim, the crux of your argument is that people are willing to pay more for books with upgrade potential.

 

How do you define more? If we are working within the parameters of valuations/indicators/tools used by buyers to better manage their resell margins, I believe the definition of more will vary wildly.

 

Buyers in the market for pressing candidates are usually using tools as a windsock to determine where they are going to get the least resistance from the seller in allowing them to make a profit.

 

In simple terms, no one is going to pay anything more than top 9.2 for a raw book that has a shot at a certified 9.4. It's just straight economics, and if the cost to achieve the potential grade impedes on profits, the flipping experiment is a non-starter.

 

Buyers might go with Overstreet. They might pay top GPA for the book "as is." But ultimately, there is no way they are going to pay a 9.4 or 9.6 certified price on a 9.2 raw comic.

 

You seem to be basing your argument on lower frequency and extenuating selling situations where it's a key book whose value is gaining momentum, low population in grade, top of census, or high in demand books where there may be several customers in the waiting who have already agreed to pay a buyers premium for a chance to own that elusive book.

 

This may well apply to the collector looking to put the feather in their cap by completing their dream run, but I just don't see any of the above examples (especially not the books in question) applying well to the situation at hand where a seller is pricing raw comics using projected certified grades.

[revat]

Trusting the seller is not something I factor in when paying more for a book.

 

My opinion is worth something considering that I've had Matt setup at my booth and if anybody knows his timeliness at shows basically made me learn a lot more about "proscreening" if he wanted to have happy customers.

 

I buy based on risk/reward. If the book is priced fairly and is nicer than the grade, good reward. If it doesn't grade what my "opinion" states I run the risk of selling it for what I paid for it or less depending on market conditions. If I pay for the next grade I take all the risk, I minimize the reward. Seller takes no risk, gets most of the reward. Not exactly what I call a win/win situation.

 

A 25% chance of a 9.6, 50% chance of a 9.8, 25% it is a 9.4 is a risk/reward ratio in your favor. You are talking the potential of a 2 grade point leap which frankly is not something I see very often. Does a 9.4 really sell for $4500 or is it $4000? $3500. You are "at risk" for $500/$1000 loss versus $1000 "profit" less pressing/grading fees if it comes back 9.6. The big win is if it comes back 9.8 for your $3000. Do upgraders take those risks. Absolutely but like any gambler don't tell me just about your wins. Tell me about those losses. And frankly using a 1% restored risk is not really a number I would use. Depending on the seller that number goes up/down.

 

 

 

I actually completely agree with you on all counts, and I'm not even sure if we're arguing. I also personally don't think its the wisest thing to buy based on potential post pressed grades GPA, but I don't think that people who try to sell using that tactic are the worst people ever or doing anything unethical (unless they are not selling in good faith). They're using a tactic that caters to a certain segment of the buying population. If they happen to find the right buyer, great, if not, no harm done to anyone, except maybe the seller, but that's on them for using that selling tactic. You can use the same logic with restoration, or with grading in general. You can trust your own info/knowledge, their info/knowledge, or a combination of the two. No right answer, each seller and buyer is unique, and responds differently.

 

I'm just saying this tactic doesn't require heavy derision or regulation, and isn't even all that uncommon. Some people buy beat up old cars to fix up and flip, and the final selling price AFTER fixing plays a factor in how much they're willing to spend for the car initially. Just because the original owner doesn't take the time and money to fix it up himself doesn't mean his pricing is off or its not worth the risk. Just because he quotes you the potential projected final (after-fixing up) sales price doesn't mean he's trying to scam you.

People do the same things when selling stocks. "Hey buy this stock for this price plus this fee, and based on our research and projections, we think it will be worth X amount in 3 months. If you want to buy this stock with us, we welcome it. If not, that's fine too." Its all about how much you trust the seller and/or your own knowledge of the topic, and your personal equations for risk/reward.

 

 

[blazingbob]

Roy, you are a upgrader.

 

You go around shows buying books to upgrade.

 

So I should note on my books "upgradeable" and price them higher?

 

How exactly does that benefit you or me?

 

Here are the issues I have with "opinion pricing"

 

I might sell that book to a person who collects yet wonders why am I pricing the book at 9.6 when it is a 9.4.

 

If they even stay at the booth/website long enough for me to be a mind reader how do I get past the pricing question? What if they have never heard of pressing? How do I start a response if the buyer doesn't ask? They could just think I'm overpriced and overgrade. Hmmm, smart business move on my part.

 

Why would an upgrader buy the book from me if I've taken out the reward?

 

I don't see how I am cultivating a good buying relationship, in fact I think I'm losing more buyers than the profit margin I've made short term. Again, I'll state it again. The person that does the best is the seller that can sell to EVERYBODY.

 

Or has the comic buying market turned into this? Would buyers out there like me to start off every transaction with "How can I make you money?"

 

 

[blazingbob]

I'm not arguing and no I'm not asking for "regulations" regarding this type of selling.

 

I just think it is a lousy way to sell books and is very short sighted financially.

 

 

[comicwiz]

I just think it is a lousy way to sell books and is very short sighted financially.

 

Not to mention the way sellers using this tactic get targeted by opportunists looking to take them for a PayPal roller-coaster ride. In the toy hobby, there is a buyer notorious for chasing guaranteed grade listings who turns around and demands partial refunds, and when he doesn't get his way uses a wide range of schemes (misrepresentation to returning swapped goods) to ensure he ends up with refund and the item.

[NewWorldOrder]

This thread is making my head hurt.

 

Buy low, sell high.....

 

Back to the beach for me!

 

 

[comicwiz]

More like sellers seeking buyers who are high

[joeypost]

Roy, you are a upgrader.

 

You go around shows buying books to upgrade.

 

So I should note on my books "upgradeable" and price them higher?

 

How exactly does that benefit you or me?

 

Here are the issues I have with "opinion pricing"

 

I might sell that book to a person who collects yet wonders why am I pricing the book at 9.6 when it is a 9.4.

 

If they even stay at the booth/website long enough for me to be a mind reader how do I get past the pricing question? What if they have never heard of pressing? How do I start a response if the buyer doesn't ask? They could just think I'm overpriced and overgrade. Hmmm, smart business move on my part.

 

Why would an upgrader buy the book from me if I've taken out the reward?

 

I don't see how I am cultivating a good buying relationship, in fact I think I'm losing more buyers than the profit margin I've made short term. Again, I'll state it again. The person that does the best is the seller that can sell to EVERYBODY.

 

Or has the comic buying market turned into this? Would buyers out there like me to start off every transaction with "How can I make you money?"

 

 

And that I why I repeated buy from Bob. Both slabs and raw books. He does not give his books away, but is fair and honest.

[NewWorldOrder]

More like sellers seeking buyers who are high

 

Or buyers who are uneducated in buying a comic book.

[Calamerica]

If you don't like a seller's tactics, don't buy their stuff. I never understood why people get so annoyed with this kind of stuff. It's very easy to not give them your money.

When I am in the "buy mode" on the 'Bay, I skim through HUNDREDS of listings, and have a method via Searches to narrow down what I am looking for.

 

THEN go case-by-case per each auction.

 

Yes, I see these "potential" grade bumps/press/spouse is sick/kids need this/whatever.

 

If I think I can get the grade I want, I take a chance. If not, I just pass, and rarely mention the details.

 

Something I look for is ANYONE that backs up what they say they are going to do. They get my $$$ everytime. Both Bob and Roy back everything they say, as well as other "super-sellers" here and on the 'Bay.

 

COI has it right. Just "pass" if you see a Seller you don't want to buy from for ANY REASON. Even though eBay is trying hard to kill themselves, there are still plenty of fish in the sea.

 

CAL

[BEAUMONTS]

I'm not arguing and no I'm not asking for "regulations" regarding this type of selling.

 

I just think it is a lousy way to sell books and is very short sighted financially.

 

(thumbs u

I think that the people who do "if any" buy books from this seller or sellers of this "ilk" sort of deserve or at the very least should not be surprised if they come out on the "fecal" end of the stick.

I do however personally put very little stock in the "improve able" sales tactic. If it's so improveable why don't they do it....really