AUGUST COMIC LINK AUCTION

[drdroom]

>snip>

If you consider that a FF1 prototype then no offense but you are not distinguishing between the legit prototypes and the BS ones.

 

 

With you 100% Bronty, except for this odd notion of "legit prototypes". Which ones are those?

 

A very few of the prehero stories labelled as prototypes really are. It's a hugely overused term but there are a few stories where it's just obvious Stan and jack were referring to them when the related hero was created. Check the tales of suspense 16 thread in silver

 

Metallo is a cool story with clear similarities to Iron Man. One of the dozens of robot/ metal suit stories has to be the most similar, and it looks like this is it. But why on earth would Stan or Jack need to refer to or consult their own story to make another story? Why would they take the time? Jack could design a robot suit in his sleep. Stan can recycle an ironic twist in his sleep. Even if, as unlikely as it sounds, Jack said "I can't think of any plots or characters today, Stan, for the first time in my life. We'll have to pull out one of our brilliant monster stories and base our new superhero on that" --that still wouldn't make it a prototype, i.e. an early test version intended to be developed into a series character.

 

There are no prototypes. Stan and Jack didn't work that way. They didn't even work together. Jack made up the Marvel Universe at home and Stan signed it at the office (ok, slight exaggeration perhaps, though I sure haven't seen even one Stan Lee -script for a Kirby pre-hero story, or of course post-hero).

 

That said, I LOVE the "prototype" stories. They evoke an alternate Marvel universe where Iron Man is a villain named Metallo, and The Hulk is exposed to cosmic rays and gains Magnetic powers. I have the OA to another Iron Man "prototype": Return of the Living Robot by Don Heck, who designed Tony Stark. It doesn't have the Metallo elements (robotic suit and heart condition), but it does have a human sized robot whose secret identity is a mustachioed member of the upper class (two of 'em, actually--spoiler!). Did Heck consult this story for Tony Stark? Of course not. He already knew how to draw suave rich guys. The robot design is closer to the Ditko armor, including a round feature in the chest that fires an irresistible power blast. I WISH this were actually the prototype for the Iron Man series, because it has a better conceptual framework: a secret society of robots defends unsuspecting humanity from robotic menaces. Wait a second, do I own the prototype for T2? OMFG

 

The word prototype is generally used to refer to an early version of something which is altered and refined. But it's less accurate to apply to earlier works that were echoed in the creation of other, different characters.

 

For instance: the unpublished Spider-man pages drawn by Kirby. absolutely a prototype; all part of the same process. Journey into mystery 73 is a story about a creature getting human intellect, which was an incredibly common concept in those days. I like the issue but it seems extraordinarily unlikely it had anything to do with the creation of peter parker.

 

The Metallo story and others bear a lot more similarities to later marvel creations, so they could be considered loosely prototypical in the sense that people have come to use it. (Even if not technically correct; when people change the popular usage of a word, it slowly becomes the defined usage) Many of these issues clearly show these story elements were swimming around in the minds of lee, kirby, ditko, ayers, and gang, and how they were recycled and refined.

 

Taken all together, they paint a fascinating picture of how and why Marvel was able to reinvent the superhero. Having to come up with all those fantasy tales involving monsters put their heads (especially Lee's) in the perfect place to come up with a new breed of superhero story.

 

I agree, except for "recycled and refined" --I think they were just being continuously recycled, with no particular refinement, through the pre-hero period and into the creation of the series heroes. Some recyclings by chance are more similar to those other recyclings that we now, after the fact, view as the definitive combinations of elements. At the time, the decision that the orange rock monster would come from cosmic rays instead of sorcery, and the magnetic powered character would come from mutation instead of cosmic rays, was just the latest random shuffle. They little thought the wheel was about to stop turning forever.

 

As to the ST page, I'm not buying it. Why would Jack Kirby of all artists waste any time finding one of his old drawings of a monster to self-swipe? If that's a swipe then every panel he drew in the early sixties was a swipe of some panel he drew the month before.

[Bronty]

Hold on just a minute I'm not saying that they literally opened up tales of suspense 16 when they created iron man. Maybe they did, probably they didn't. What I'm saying is that there are a very few (I would say less than five) stories where the similarities to later heroes or villains are too strong to ignore. There are probably 50 so-called prototypes (as an aside I agree that it's not the perfect term to describe what we have here) and Id suggest 3,4,5 where Stan and Jack had to be thinking of or borrowing from an earlier story in creating the later one.

 

A story where a robot suit is built in a military context, the operator has a heart condition, he is trapped inside the suit... needs the suit to exist... that's compelling and more than a fluke IMO.

 

And while I haven't read the magneto story, a creature named magneto that has the power of magnetism is probably compelling too just based on having the same name & powers.

 

The other 95% of the "prototype" stories aren't worth talking about but you can't tell me there aren't a few where Stan or Jack or Stan and Jack didn't later recycle some of the ideas in a hero context. Call them prototypes or just call them really neat, I don't care, but there are a few that are significant, and I think, to bring it home, that we can all agree the strange Tales splash at auction wasn't one of them

 

 

Bronty you are dead wrong on the FF1 "swipe page" which you can call later....instead of prototype.

 

The strange tales page was created aprrox 6 months before FF!, When jack needed to come up with "another monster cover" see FF1 and FF3 REJECTED cover, the Change was made starting on issue 3. Kirby Swiped the ST 96 Monster because one, the page was great, and second there was a lot of pressure on Jack to come up with 25 pages after stan gave him the -script. When the end of the monster era was approaching, they took it off and printed it six months later.

 

The identical image, the same position makes it a clear SWIPE and possibility the only remaining art related to the lost FF1 cover.

 

It can be called anything ,but it is clearly a it is related swipe.

 

Did theo buy the page or something? Seriously Mitch? Or are you just making up stuff as you type it? Give me one iota of evidence for any of that?

 

I've given you evidence that kirby used the same pose three times that month. Have yet to hear your reply.

[Bronty]

>snip>

If you consider that a FF1 prototype then no offense but you are not distinguishing between the legit prototypes and the BS ones.

 

 

With you 100% Bronty, except for this odd notion of "legit prototypes". Which ones are those?

 

A very few of the prehero stories labelled as prototypes really are. It's a hugely overused term but there are a few stories where it's just obvious Stan and jack were referring to them when the related hero was created. Check the tales of suspense 16 thread in silver

 

Metallo is a cool story with clear similarities to Iron Man. One of the dozens of robot/ metal suit stories has to be the most similar, and it looks like this is it. But why on earth would Stan or Jack need to refer to or consult their own story to make another story? Why would they take the time? Jack could design a robot suit in his sleep. Stan can recycle an ironic twist in his sleep. Even if, as unlikely as it sounds, Jack said "I can't think of any plots or characters today, Stan, for the first time in my life. We'll have to pull out one of our brilliant monster stories and base our new superhero on that" --that still wouldn't make it a prototype, i.e. an early test version intended to be developed into a series character.

 

There are no prototypes. Stan and Jack didn't work that way. They didn't even work together. Jack made up the Marvel Universe at home and Stan signed it at the office (ok, slight exaggeration perhaps, though I sure haven't seen even one Stan Lee -script for a Kirby pre-hero story, or of course post-hero).

 

That said, I LOVE the "prototype" stories. They evoke an alternate Marvel universe where Iron Man is a villain named Metallo, and The Hulk is exposed to cosmic rays and gains Magnetic powers. I have the OA to another Iron Man "prototype": Return of the Living Robot by Don Heck, who designed Tony Stark. It doesn't have the Metallo elements (robotic suit and heart condition), but it does have a human sized robot whose secret identity is a mustachioed member of the upper class (two of 'em, actually--spoiler!). Did Heck consult this story for Tony Stark? Of course not. He already knew how to draw suave rich guys. The robot design is closer to the Ditko armor, including a round feature in the chest that fires an irresistible power blast. I WISH this were actually the prototype for the Iron Man series, because it has a better conceptual framework: a secret society of robots defends unsuspecting humanity from robotic menaces. Wait a second, do I own the prototype for T2? OMFG

 

The word prototype is generally used to refer to an early version of something which is altered and refined. But it's less accurate to apply to earlier works that were echoed in the creation of other, different characters.

 

For instance: the unpublished Spider-man pages drawn by Kirby. absolutely a prototype; all part of the same process. Journey into mystery 73 is a story about a creature getting human intellect, which was an incredibly common concept in those days. I like the issue but it seems extraordinarily unlikely it had anything to do with the creation of peter parker.

 

The Metallo story and others bear a lot more similarities to later marvel creations, so they could be considered loosely prototypical in the sense that people have come to use it. (Even if not technically correct; when people change the popular usage of a word, it slowly becomes the defined usage) Many of these issues clearly show these story elements were swimming around in the minds of lee, kirby, ditko, ayers, and gang, and how they were recycled and refined.

 

Taken all together, they paint a fascinating picture of how and why Marvel was able to reinvent the superhero. Having to come up with all those fantasy tales involving monsters put their heads (especially Lee's) in the perfect place to come up with a new breed of superhero story.

 

I agree, except for "recycled and refined" --I think they were just being continuously recycled, with no particular refinement, through the pre-hero period and into the creation of the series heroes. Some recyclings by chance are more similar to those other recyclings that we now, after the fact, view as the definitive combinations of elements. At the time, the decision that the orange rock monster would come from cosmic rays instead of sorcery, and the magnetic powered character would come from mutation instead of cosmic rays, was just the latest random shuffle. They little thought the wheel was about to stop turning forever.

 

As to the ST page, I'm not buying it. Why would Jack Kirby of all artists waste any time finding one of his old drawings of a monster to self-swipe? If that's a swipe then every panel he drew in the early sixties was a swipe of some panel he drew the month before.

 

Just answer me this.

 

Hypothetically you're an author of comic books in the 1960s. You come up with a character called magneto with the power of magnetism and then 2 years later you come up with another character called magneto with the power of magnetism.

 

Are you trying to tell me that as the author of both you wouldn't be partially recycling the first idea into the second?

 

The rest of your answer just clouds the issue. Magneto w/ magnetism. 2 years later, Magneto with magnetism. What more does anybody really need to know?

 

I think most people into these comics oversell the 'prototype' element but I think you're actually underselling it, IMO, at least when it comes to the few that strongly correspond to the later heroes/villains.

 

We surely agree on this utterly irrelevant (to the fantastic four) strange tales splash though.

[drdroom]

>snip>

If you consider that a FF1 prototype then no offense but you are not distinguishing between the legit prototypes and the BS ones.

 

 

With you 100% Bronty, except for this odd notion of "legit prototypes". Which ones are those?

 

A very few of the prehero stories labelled as prototypes really are. It's a hugely overused term but there are a few stories where it's just obvious Stan and jack were referring to them when the related hero was created. Check the tales of suspense 16 thread in silver

 

Metallo is a cool story with clear similarities to Iron Man. One of the dozens of robot/ metal suit stories has to be the most similar, and it looks like this is it. But why on earth would Stan or Jack need to refer to or consult their own story to make another story? Why would they take the time? Jack could design a robot suit in his sleep. Stan can recycle an ironic twist in his sleep. Even if, as unlikely as it sounds, Jack said "I can't think of any plots or characters today, Stan, for the first time in my life. We'll have to pull out one of our brilliant monster stories and base our new superhero on that" --that still wouldn't make it a prototype, i.e. an early test version intended to be developed into a series character.

 

There are no prototypes. Stan and Jack didn't work that way. They didn't even work together. Jack made up the Marvel Universe at home and Stan signed it at the office (ok, slight exaggeration perhaps, though I sure haven't seen even one Stan Lee -script for a Kirby pre-hero story, or of course post-hero).

 

That said, I LOVE the "prototype" stories. They evoke an alternate Marvel universe where Iron Man is a villain named Metallo, and The Hulk is exposed to cosmic rays and gains Magnetic powers. I have the OA to another Iron Man "prototype": Return of the Living Robot by Don Heck, who designed Tony Stark. It doesn't have the Metallo elements (robotic suit and heart condition), but it does have a human sized robot whose secret identity is a mustachioed member of the upper class (two of 'em, actually--spoiler!). Did Heck consult this story for Tony Stark? Of course not. He already knew how to draw suave rich guys. The robot design is closer to the Ditko armor, including a round feature in the chest that fires an irresistible power blast. I WISH this were actually the prototype for the Iron Man series, because it has a better conceptual framework: a secret society of robots defends unsuspecting humanity from robotic menaces. Wait a second, do I own the prototype for T2? OMFG

 

The word prototype is generally used to refer to an early version of something which is altered and refined. But it's less accurate to apply to earlier works that were echoed in the creation of other, different characters.

 

For instance: the unpublished Spider-man pages drawn by Kirby. absolutely a prototype; all part of the same process. Journey into mystery 73 is a story about a creature getting human intellect, which was an incredibly common concept in those days. I like the issue but it seems extraordinarily unlikely it had anything to do with the creation of peter parker.

 

The Metallo story and others bear a lot more similarities to later marvel creations, so they could be considered loosely prototypical in the sense that people have come to use it. (Even if not technically correct; when people change the popular usage of a word, it slowly becomes the defined usage) Many of these issues clearly show these story elements were swimming around in the minds of lee, kirby, ditko, ayers, and gang, and how they were recycled and refined.

 

Taken all together, they paint a fascinating picture of how and why Marvel was able to reinvent the superhero. Having to come up with all those fantasy tales involving monsters put their heads (especially Lee's) in the perfect place to come up with a new breed of superhero story.

 

I agree, except for "recycled and refined" --I think they were just being continuously recycled, with no particular refinement, through the pre-hero period and into the creation of the series heroes. Some recyclings by chance are more similar to those other recyclings that we now, after the fact, view as the definitive combinations of elements. At the time, the decision that the orange rock monster would come from cosmic rays instead of sorcery, and the magnetic powered character would come from mutation instead of cosmic rays, was just the latest random shuffle. They little thought the wheel was about to stop turning forever.

 

As to the ST page, I'm not buying it. Why would Jack Kirby of all artists waste any time finding one of his old drawings of a monster to self-swipe? If that's a swipe then every panel he drew in the early sixties was a swipe of some panel he drew the month before.

 

Just answer me this.

 

Hypothetically you're an author of comic books in the 1960s. You come up with a character called magneto with the power of magnetism and then 2 years later you come up with another character called magneto with the power of magnetism.

 

Are you trying to tell me that as the author of both you wouldn't be partially recycling the first idea into the second?

 

The rest of your answer just clouds the issue. Magneto w/ magnetism. 2 years later, Magneto with magnetism. What more does anybody really need to know?

 

I think most people into these comics oversell the 'prototype' element but I think you're actually underselling it, IMO, at least when it comes to the few that strongly correspond to the later heroes/villains.

 

We surely agree on this utterly irrelevant (to the fantastic four) strange tales splash though.

 

Sure, it's recycled, I said that: "continuously recycled" --but so is lots of other stuff from the same story (ST 84, if memory serves). The cosmic rays incident in space is recycled into the FF. It's just as much an FF prototype as an X-men prototype (Unless FF was already out? Then FF is a ST 84 prototype). The name "Hulk" is recycled into the Hulk (It was already recycled from a few previous "Hulk"s). Other junk from other stories is recycled into the X-men along with two elements of the ST 84 Magneto, NOT including his appearance, origin, character or motivations. I just don't think there is any significance other than these tropes were the raw material these artists were working with. Did they remember the earlier Magneto? Sure, probably, so what? If his power is magnetism, what would be a good name? Metal-Stickem'-Guy?

[drdroom]

By the way, speaking of X-Men precedents, Kirby did a group-of-teenage-mutants-in -an-institutional-setting story for Harvey in the '50s (Stan, not so much).

[Bronty]

If you think that a story that has clear elements by your own admission of Xmen 1 and FF1 is insignificant then that's a matter of opinion and not really worth debating. If you ask me whether that's a prototype or a ham sandwich it's d--n cool and worthy of some attention

[drdroom]

I agree that it's d--n cool! I said up front that I LOVE the "prototype" stories, even though they are in no sense prototypes.

[Bronty]

By the way, speaking of X-Men precedents, Kirby did a group-of-teenage-mutants-in -an-institutional-setting story for Harvey in the '50s (Stan, not so much).

 

Cool! He also did a 50s dc Thor .

 

I think those are insignificant, but still neat.

[Mmehdy]

Kirby SWIPED himself on the ST 96 splash to the FF1 cover, that is WHY they shelved the story for over 1 year....no brainer here

 

C-Link even put a copy of FF1 7.0 on the listing to compare.

[drdroom]

By the way, speaking of X-Men precedents, Kirby did a group-of-teenage-mutants-in -an-institutional-setting story for Harvey in the '50s (Stan, not so much).

 

Cool! He also did a 50s dc Thor .

 

I think those are insignificant, but still neat.

 

And of course Challengers of the Unknown strongly resembles the FF. I would grant them the same significance I gave the Atlas "prototypes" above: these tropes were the raw material these artists were working with. In cases where the authorship is uncertain, we can sometimes look at these motifs for clues.

[drdroom]

Kirby SWIPED himself on the ST 96 splash to the FF1 cover, that is WHY they shelved the story for over 1 year....no brainer here

 

C-Link even put a copy of FF1 7.0 on the listing to compare.

 

You mean they were afraid that their readers would think one of their monster comics was derivative of another one?

[batman_fan]

Kirby SWIPED himself on the ST 96 splash to the FF1 cover, that is WHY they shelved the story for over 1 year....no brainer here

 

C-Link even put a copy of FF1 7.0 on the listing to compare.

 

I do not see any significant similarity between the two images. The monsters look different, the poses look different. I just don't see any real similarity. Calling this a prototype is beyond a stretch. I know you will disagree Mitch because you are always stuck on your hucksterism, but it just isn't there.

[Bronty]

Droom as an aside St 84 predates FF1. St 89 w/FFF is one month before FF1 so st 90 probably has the same date

[drdroom]

Droom as an aside St 84 predates FF1. St 89 w/FFF is one month before FF1 so st 90 probably has the same date

 

Thanks! Cosmic rays were, um, in the air...

 

[Mephisto]

I

I think the two Stelfreeze lots went for a screaming deal. Stelfreeze started of as cover artist for this series and did a long run of great covers. These covers are no exception.

 

SHADOW OF THE BAT 7, 8 & 9 for $908. $300 for a painted Stelfreeze cover?

 

 

And SHADOW OF THE BAT 43 & 44 for $1077 . $538 a cover? Not a bad deal in my opinion.

 

 

 

These are the kinds of examples I like to cite when collectors say things are too expensive to attract new OA fans. I can't remember the last time I saw a fully painted cover advertised for sale below $500

And the new owner must be excited to get these. They are already on CAF

 

I bought a Stelfeeeze painted Batman cover earlier in the year in a CLink auction. It was a hair over $1,500. I went full bore on that one because it had Solomon Grundy and other then a few Alex Ross paintings there aren't many paintings with him. I wouldn't be surprised if I made an actual effort on the Catwoman cover it wouldn't have popped up around that amount. It always seems that the kind of stuff I bid on always has just one other person going after it and I I don't bid it goes very cheap. I put a very half assed bid on the GI Joe cover and the next bid didn't even make a full incremental bid to win it.

[delekkerste]

Same with the Buscema unpublished Surfer cover. $24,000. No late bids

 

Back for sale at Romitaman.com already for $27K (it had been listed there prior to the CLink sale for $24K). What's the story there?