AT LAST

[Forbush-Man]

So you would rather have a "clean" 9.2 TOS 39 than the WM 9.6 TOS 39 with that horrible scribbling?

 

I'll take the ugly one (if your just going to give it away)!

[uclapeterg]

White Mountain Pedigree books have stunning freshness, preservation, and cover gloss but if I had a choice between a WM and another copy of equal structural and aesthetic quality I would choose the one without the writing.

 

Not me, I like the pedigrees. The good news for you is that Pacific Coasts and Curators don't seem to have any writing/stamps, nor do most of the Western Penns (although a few have a date stamp on the back).

 

I don't mind date stamps.

[uclapeterg]

 

 

 

 

I love Pete. Not in a gay way. In a viking way.

 

There is a difference?

[r100comics]

So you would rather have a "clean" 9.2 TOS 39 than the WM 9.6 TOS 39 with that horrible scribbling?

 

No way. But I would rather go for the only other #39 9.6 if all else were equal between the two books. I do not want to focus too much on the WM #39 9.6 as I have already stated I put a book this rare in grade in the same catergory as an Edgar Church. My comments relate more to books where there are several available in grade.

 

Just to clarify, am i correct in believing the majority of the WMs also have a pen written arrival date on the first page as well as the cover ?

[Red Hook]

 

 

 

I love Pete. Not in a gay way. In a viking way.

 

There is a difference?

 

Never, never think you know it all.....

 

Um, more than you ever probably wanted to know about Gay Vikings......

[deathlok]

 

 

I love Pete. Not in a gay way. In a viking way.

..or in a gay viking way.

[Timely]

Writing generally bothers me also on S.A. Pedigrees. In fact, I dislike anything that destroys the "straight off the presses" illusion like date stamps, writing, distributor overspray etc. This is not really an issue with Pedigree G.A. books (and also the T.O.S. #39 9.6 to a degree) as there are no other options in that grade.

 

White Mountain Pedigree books have stunning freshness, preservation, and cover gloss but if I had a choice between a WM and another copy of equal structural and aesthetic quality I would choose the one without the writing.

 

IMO

Writing does not bother me on books at all (unless it is defacing). In fact I actually prefer writing on the Pedigree books and most pedigree collectors do as well. Seeing the writing is just another way (and usually the easiest way) to identify the book is from the collection it is being claimed as. Also as a collector who owned runs of Mile Highs seeing all those issues in a row with the exact same markings is something special. When I would buy a MH, take it home and put it in with the rest of the run and see how perfectly it fit in with what I already had, I knew it was the correct book.

 

West

[mr_highgrade]

 

The only Pedigree I would make an exception on would be the Edgar Church books. I believe this collection to be of such magnitude in the history of this hobby that almost every copy stands alone as the finest example there will ever be.

 

[namisgr]

So you would rather have a "clean" 9.2 TOS 39 than the WM 9.6 TOS 39 with that horrible scribbling?

 

No way. But I would rather go for the only other #39 9.6 if all else were equal between the two books. I do not want to focus too much on the WM #39 9.6 as I have already stated I put a book this rare in grade in the same catergory as an Edgar Church. My comments relate more to books where there are several available in grade.

 

Just to clarify, am i correct in believing the majority of the WMs also have a pen written arrival date on the first page as well as the cover ?

 

While I am far from an expert on the White Mtn pedigree, the half-dozen early Silver Age books I own from the collection have an arrival date stamped in red on the splash page, in addition to the small written arrival year on the cover. I believe CGC takes these elements into consideration when arriving at a grade, at least for the very high grades. Consequently, a 9.4 or 9.6 WM book typically has extraordinary structural preservation, and "all other things" are not equal with another 9.4 or 9.6 copy.

 

The WM books also have tremendous eye appeal, with outstanding preservation of cover whiteness and colors (just compare the back covers some time against PC or non-pedigree books). Finally, they've got a terrific aroma of mothballs (mellowed through time) intermixed with the fresh paper smell - take a whiff of a WM the next time you come across one unslabbed!

 

This is one of the many beauties of our hobby, that each of us has our own tastes. Some abhor any arrival dates. Some can't stand a little of the back cover wrap showing on the front. As for me, I don't like books that look aged through cover yellowing, and I will always prefer a high grade book with exceptional color preservation to one that is slightly structurally superior but has lost some of its whiteness.

[sfilosa]

While I am far from an expert on the White Mtn pedigree, the half-dozen early Silver Age books I own from the collection have an arrival date stamped in red on the splash page, in addition to the small written arrival year on the cover. I believe CGC takes these elements into consideration when arriving at a grade, at least for the very high grades. Consequently, a 9.4 or 9.6 WM book typically has extraordinary structural preservation, and "all other things" are not equal with another 9.4 or 9.6 copy.

 

Have to disagree. CGC should not take into consideration at all the date code on the WM books.

 

Also as been pointed out many times, I actually believe that Pedigree books in general get a SLIGHT bump up in grade, usually because they have better Colors and Gloss than other non-pedigree books that are structurally similar.

 

I'm also not sure if most high-grade copies of SA books (even prior to 1965) have to be from Pedigree Collections. For GA, probably yes, for SA No.

 

Realize that most of the SA pedigrees that people refer to, have only come to light in the past 15 YEARS. It's my opinion that there are still a few major SA collections that were compiled before these pedigrees were found, that will end up have at least as high of a grade as most of these pedigrees.

 

Also, as someone who has 50-60 SA CGC pedigree books in 9.0 or higher, I can honestly say, NONE look any different then their non-pedigree counterparts.

 

Just my observations.

[namisgr]

Have to disagree. CGC should not take into consideration at all the date code on the WM books.

 

Also as been pointed out many times, I actually believe that Pedigree books in general get a SLIGHT bump up in grade, usually because they have better Colors and Gloss than other non-pedigree books that are structurally similar.

 

Also, as someone who has 50-60 SA CGC pedigree books in 9.0 or higher, I can honestly say, NONE look any different then their non-pedigree counterparts.

 

Just my observations.

 

You've got me confused, Steve. On the one hand, you believe pedigree books get grade bumps owing to better colors and gloss. On the other hand, you believe your high-grade pedigree books look no different than their non-pedigree counterparts.

 

I find that not only can books differ dramatically in whiteness and color preservation, but different pedigrees show distinct qualities of whiteness and color preservation. Here are back covers from 4 early Silver Age pedigree books that illustrate this point. While my scanner does a [!@#%^&^]-poor job with slabs, and doesn't do justice to my point, it is readily apparent in person that the whiteness preservation differs markedly for these 4 books. Although books within a pedigree can vary quite a bit in terms of color and whiteness, it is my sense from owning several books from these 4 pedigrees that there are distinctions that emerge. I agree with you that the occasional non-pedigree can be as beautifully-preserved as the whitest and freshest pedigree, and I actively seek out these exceptional books as well.

 

See if you can guess which of the books below comes from the Pacific Coast, White Mountain, Northland, and Massachusetts pedigrees. In person, the top book has by far the best whiteness preservation, while the bottom one has the worst, and the difference in whiteness is readily observable on the front covers as well. Top book: 1964; Second from top: 1962; Third from top: 1962; bottom: 1963.

 

 

 

 

[tth2]

I will guess from top to bottom:

 

PC, NL, WM, Mass

[tth2]

Have to disagree. CGC should not take into consideration at all the date code on the WM books.

 

I agree with this, date codes, whether stamped or written, should not affect the grade. A structural 9.4 should be a 9.4, regardless of writing/stamps. People can then decide whether they want the book as a matter of personal preference.

 

I'm also not sure if most high-grade copies of SA books (even prior to 1965) have to be from Pedigree Collections. For GA, probably yes, for SA No.

 

I agree that they don't HAVE to be from a pedigree, but I believe many are. Many top-of-census pre-1965 Flash, Showcase, B&B, Hawkman, Strange Tales and Tales to Astonish are Western Penns. Many top-of-census X-Men and TOS are PCs, and the 9.8 X-Men #1 is Curator. The 9.6 TOS 39 and JIM 83 are WM.

 

Realize that most of the SA pedigrees that people refer to, have only come to light in the past 15 YEARS. It's my opinion that there are still a few major SA collections that were compiled before these pedigrees were found, that will end up have at least as high of a grade as most of these pedigrees.

 

There were undoubtedly pedigree-quality SA collections that surfaced more than 15 years ago and came to market without ever being identified as such. However, I believe MOST major SA collections HAVE emerged within the last 15 years simply because that's about the time that SA prices really started to move. The economic motivation to brand a SA collection and bring it out en masse did not really exist until the late 1980s, because the prices just didn't justify it. SA collectors tended to have a better idea of what their books were worth because they collected at the time that comic collecting started to take off and be publicized. Based upon what I've heard, the OOs of the Curator, Western Penn, Mass and PC collections were not rubes like the Church family and knew what they were doing and had a good idea as to how much their collections were worth when they decided to sell them.

[namisgr]

I will guess from top to bottom:

 

PC, NL, WM, Mass

 

Thanks for playing our game, TTH. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

 

The whitest book (top) is a Northland (FF Annual 2). The next whitest is third from the top, the White Mountain Strange Tales 102. Close behind is the Massachusetts JIM 85 (second from the top), while the most yellowed is the bottom book, the Pacific Coast JIM 90.

 

Consistently, the PC books have the least well-preserved whiteness of the major Silver pedigrees that I own (excepting the Bethlehems, which tend to have light interior and exterior tanning). The Mass JIM shown here is actually an aberration, as the Mass JIM 87 and other books from this pedigree that I've seen have tremendous whiteness. For instance, I own the PC FF12, the NL FF13, and the Mass FF14 and, among the three, the Mass copy is clearly the whitest, with the NL second and the PC book a distant third. Among the pedigrees in my collection, the Massachusetts books have the best color and whiteness preservation (keeping in mind that I do not own any Curator books). White Mountains, Northlands, Green Rivers and Winnipegs come next, although by the late '60s some of the NL books seem to be less well-preserved than the older ones, while the Winnies from that era really shine.

 

From a structural standpoint, the PC books are absolute freaks, but the Mass pedigree is my favorite of them all, owing to its unsurpassed color retention. Just one collectors' opinion.

[tth2]

1 out of 4... yeesh!

 

This is a new perspective on things. I feel compelled to go home and pull out some of my pedigreed DCs (PCs, Western Penns, Bethlehems, Mass, Boston and WM) to check out the backs to see if the same holds true of the DCs. If I have time, I'll scan and post 'em. I'm such a geek!

[deathlok]

From top to bottom:

 

Northland

White Mountain

Massachusetts

Pacific Coast

 

 

 

 

 

 

Huh? What's that? You already gave the answers? Oh, never mind then.

[uclapeterg]

From top to bottom:

 

Northland

White Mountain

Massachusetts

Pacific Coast

 

 

 

 

 

 

Huh? What's that? You already gave the answers? Oh, never mind then.

 

[namisgr]

This is a new perspective on things. I feel compelled to go home and pull out some of my pedigreed DCs (PCs, Western Penns, Bethlehems, Mass, Boston and WM) to check out the backs to see if the same holds true of the DCs. If I have time, I'll scan and post 'em. I'm such a geek!

 

Join me in Geekville, tth. Come to the land of the thick-rimmed glasses, where inspectors compare comic book back cover whiteness!

 

I would be interested to see some of your early Silver DC pedigrees matched up head to head. It would be especially revealing to compare books that were published at nearly the same time. I may also try to pull together a post of the FF12-14 run with the 3 separate pedigrees, although my scans don't do the books proper justice. I've just got a thing for books that retain their cover whiteness, and have always turned to inspection of the back cover as well as the CCA stamp and price box on the front as valuable guides.

[linmoth]

Hi Guys: Great Discussion. That is one of the first things that I look at when checking out a book. I don't think that back cover whiteness is going to be as much of an issue with the early DCs as Marvels.

 

I have always been amazed at how much nicer the DCs have been in the pedigree issues that I have owned compared to the Marvels.

 

Both the PC and Western Penn DCs were very white, so much so, that when I received Marvels from the PC OO I almost returned them.

 

I think the quality of the paper really shows when comparing books by the two publishers.

 

My 2 cents!

 

Best, Tom

[sfilosa]

have always been amazed at how much nicer the DCs have been in the pedigree issues that I have owned compared to the Marvels.

 

Both the PC and Western Penn DCs were very white, so much so, that when I received Marvels from the PC OO I almost returned them.

 

Well there you go.

 

1) Everyone should know that I love pedigree collections (I'm always starting threads).

 

2) It's my opinion that the Marvel pedigrees do not stand out as much as GA pedigrees. Since I don't own any DC SA pedigrees, I'm going to defer to linmoth that DC pedigree books are superior.

 

3) What makes pedigrees interesting to me is not that they are so much high-grade, but that there is a uniqueness to runs of them.

 

4) But by the time you get into the 60's (maybe 63-64), there are many more copies available of high-grade non-pedigree books that have the same qualities (and eye appeal) of pedigree books.