Watchmen vs. DKR ---- SPOILER CITY BABY!!!!!

[hobbes]

Watchmen was a story of commentary about super heroes in general. It dealt with concepts that had never been seen in comics before, and it was the start of super heroes in the "real world" and explored the depths of the psychosis (in some cases) and the outlook of how heroes would react were they actually real. It was the first time they acted and sounded like real people -- but not simply in the way they talked, but more in the manner in which they communicated.

 

This is what I liked about the Watchmen. I can remember the first time I read Watchmen that I did not get it right away. It took a few issues for me to realize Moore was not just taking the heroes out of their costumes, he was digging into their minds. Showing how heroes grow old. How heroes deal with the results of the choices they made in their lives. Rorschach is obviously insane. Nite owl is half a man. Dr Manhattan loses faith in people. It's like what happens to any adult as life goes along. Everyone takes a look at their lives at some point and reacts to the conclusions they reach about themselves. Moore applied that to super heroes.

[Mephisto]

I have to agree with Chris on this one, and I love DKR:

 

Here's my rationale:

 

DKR changed the way we look at a particular character and set him in a future place where Batman was returned to his "bad [!@#%^&^]" self. Of course, what was done was just a modernization of who Batman is, what drives him and what he's all about. There was an exploration that extended beyond that, especially the conflict between Superman and Batman, and their polar opposite views of the world that both recognize a need for the other's, and a host of some other underlying themes but...

 

 

I need to read Watchmen becuse I thought DKR sucked. I thought Batman was pretty bad [!@#%^&^] in books like Batman 251. He didn't seem any more bad [!@#%^&^] in DKR. He didn't even kill the Joker what a Mother [!@#%^&^] [!@#%^&^]. The story didn't seem very futuristic it seemed ike 1986. I hated Miller's art work too. His best work is on Daredevil.

[supapimp]

[Old_Skool]

Hard call.Ok,not really.I think both DKR and Watchmen are seminal comic events of the 80`s.I believe DKR is more important in terms of the exsisting comicverse and ,in particular,for the dc world.Although a "what if" or parallel universe type story(did they have the term "elseworlds" when in was published?)it does make us look at the batman in a differant light.And,like a jury,once we are exposed to that fact(even if instructed to disavow)we will never look at the facts(same old batman)again.I feel DKR was more important and had a deeper impact,but I feel that Watchmen was the more involved and deeper comic expearience.To me,Watchmen is the finest comicbook story ever.It may have been taking place in a different universe and dealing with completely alien comic heros/superheros(albeit with strong roots in conventional comicdom),but what it did was to make us look at costumed heros/superheros in a completely differant light.They are(more or less)human with the same foilbles and deficiencies as we mortals.When faced with tough decisions they often fail.The only other books that had this effect on me were the painted Alex Ross Marvels(not for the writing but for the sheer credibilty that seeing classic comic icons in this new "real" painted medium had on me).

Ok,end of rant I guess.

 

[Kevin Boyd]

did they have the term "elseworlds" when in was published?

 

Nope. In a sense DKR created Elseworlds... but there was still some speculation that this was still a possible future for Batman.

 

To me,Watchmen is the finest comicbook story ever.It may have been taking place in a different universe and dealing with completely alien comic heros/superheros(albeit with strong roots in conventional comicdom),but what it did was to make us look at costumed heros/superheros in a completely differant light.They are(more or less)human with the same foilbles and deficiencies as we mortals.When faced with tough decisions they often fail.The only other books that had this effect on me were the painted Alex Ross Marvels(not for the writing but for the sheer credibilty that seeing classic comic icons in this new "real" painted medium had on me).

 

Good points. Ross has stated on many occasions that Watchmen affected his perspective on super-heroes and he wanted to do the same with Marvels, and, in a different way, with Kingdom Come.

 

With DKR it was definitely a look at what makes Batman tick? Why is he such a great character? What does he really represent? It's a fascinating exploration of an icon and what makes him tick.

 

With Watchmen it is definitely about the different levels of superheroes and what kind of people go out and do this and how their presence has changed the world they live in... from the vigilantes to the thrillseekers, from intergenerational pressures to social activism, from patriotism to manical fascism... and to those who would fancy themselves "new gods" above it all... industrialists re-shaping the face of humanity or transformed humans gradually losing touch with the mundaneness of humanity. With Watchmen it's all about perspective... represented by the happy face symbol. Sometimes it's a pin in the gutter, sometimes it's an image on the face of the moon itself as big as a city.

 

An ambitious and fascinating work.

 

I still give the edge to DKR because of it's accessibility. Everyone encounters Batman at some point in their life. He's not just one of our great comic book characters but he is one of the icons of 20th century pop culture. Miller's exploration of Batman is also a look at where society was heading at the end of the century. Batman was a tired old concept in 1986... by 1987 he was reborn, with purpose. He felt young again, as Wayne states when he goes back into action in the first part of DKR. By the end of the work he understands it's not the costume that counts but what it's supposed to stand for - building a better world... and that goal doesn't require the accoutrements, just the will to do it and a plan.

 

That's the same message that you get at the end of Kingdom Come, another great Modern work, that has almost as much significance as these two great books. At the end of KC the heroes hang their capes up and decide to stop being symbols and instead act as individuals to bring about a better world. Which is what we assume that Batman and Superman intended when they started out, but got confused by all of the imitators, gadgets and barnacles that encrust the superhero myths.

[The Brain]

You should right a history of this MAN YOU NAILED IT!!

[FFB]

bored at work again?

 

No work today.

[FFB]

I have to agree with Chris on this one, and I love DKR:

 

Here's my rationale:

 

DKR changed the way we look at a particular character and set him in a future place where Batman was returned to his "bad [!@#%^&^]" self. Of course, what was done was just a modernization of who Batman is, what drives him and what he's all about. There was an exploration that extended beyond that, especially the conflict between Superman and Batman, and their polar opposite views of the world that both recognize a need for the other's, and a host of some other underlying themes but...

 

 

I need to read Watchmen becuse I thought DKR sucked. I thought Batman was pretty bad [!@#%^&^] in books like Batman 251. He didn't seem any more bad [!@#%^&^] in DKR. He didn't even kill the Joker what a Mother [!@#%^&^] [!@#%^&^]. The story didn't seem very futuristic it seemed ike 1986. I hated Miller's art work too.

 

 

His best work is on Daredevil.

 

[Mephisto]

I have to agree with Chris on this one, and I love DKR:

 

Here's my rationale:

 

DKR changed the way we look at a particular character and set him in a future place where Batman was returned to his "bad [!@#%^&^]" self. Of course, what was done was just a modernization of who Batman is, what drives him and what he's all about. There was an exploration that extended beyond that, especially the conflict between Superman and Batman, and their polar opposite views of the world that both recognize a need for the other's, and a host of some other underlying themes but...

 

 

I need to read Watchmen becuse I thought DKR sucked. I thought Batman was pretty bad [!@#%^&^] in books like Batman 251. He didn't seem any more bad [!@#%^&^] in DKR. He didn't even kill the Joker what a Mother [!@#%^&^] [!@#%^&^]. The story didn't seem very futuristic it seemed ike 1986. I hated Miller's art work too.

 

 

His best work is on Daredevil.

 

 

The TPB with DD 168-182 was the best TPB I have ever read. I go against the norm have picked up Dark Pheonix Saga twice in the past 8 years and have never once finished it.

[shadroch]

I've read Dark Knight several times,in its original form and in TPB and it just doesn't do much for me.

I don't believe anything short of death would ever have gotten Bats to hang up his cowl in the first place,not without at least appointing a worthy successor.

I much perfer Batman:Son of the Demon ,a book that came out in the same timeframe,more or less.

imo,Watchmen is the finest series I've ever read,nothing before or since has come close.I've read it at least a half-dozen times and it still amazes me.

I suppose DK is a more important work but Watchmen is the better one,to me.

[Old_Skool]

Excellent,excellent post Kevin.You put it into words much better than I could.I concur...and all that good stuff. Kingdom Come had slipped my mind til I read your post.That series had a huge effect on me also.It continued where Marvels left off(visually anyway).That is making my comic heros seem more real;tangible.I think all three series mentioned(DKR,Watchmen,and Kingdom Come)have done nothing but strengthen and fortify the comic mythos...slightly altered them too,but I think for the better.

[Aman619]

You should right a history of this MAN YOU NAILED IT!!

 

hey Brain - - that is just not a typo, man, is it? Thats just scary!!

[The Brain]

You should right a history of this MAN YOU NAILED IT!!

 

hey Brain - - that is just not a typo, man, is it? Thats just scary!!

 

NO typo, Kevin has got it right IMHO. YOU DISAGREE WHY???

[Aman619]

Brain, Im needling you...perhaps in error, perhaps not.

but do you think you spelled your originally statement "write"???

[The Brain]

Brain, Im needling you...perhaps in error, perhaps not.

but do you think you spelled your originally statement "write"???

 

 

ME BAD ME SO VERY BAD YOUR WRITE GOT ME

 

I'LL TRY TO RIGHT MY WRITTEN WRONGS RIGHT AWAY.

[Bonds25]

YOUR WRITE GOT ME

 

I think you mean "YOU'RE" and not "YOUR" don't you?

 

[The Brain]

YOUR WRITE GOT ME

 

I think you mean "YOU'RE" and not "YOUR" don't you?

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

 

MAKE IT STOP PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!!!!!! BUT U R \

[chrisco37]

Hurray, almost 24 hours since my last post with no response from Chrisco! I win the debate!

 

 

 

Couldn't respond. Home PC went on the fritz while I was on vacation.

[FFB]

Hurray, almost 24 hours since my last post with no response from Chrisco! I win the debate!

 

 

 

Couldn't respond. Home PC went on the fritz while I was on vacation.

 

Suuuuuuure it did. More likely you were struggling in the grip of reason and could not think of a decent response to my posts.

[Illiterati-migration]

Hurray, almost 24 hours since my last post with no response from Chrisco! I win the debate!

 

 

 

Couldn't respond. Home PC went on the fritz while I was on vacation.

 

Suuuuuuure it did. More likely you were struggling in the grip of reason and could not think of a decent response to my posts.

 

I think your Neverending Dissertation™ put him into a deep sleep... coma-like, if you will.