Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice movie thread for your reading pleasure 2 2

[GeneticNinja]

18 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Easily manipulated? Not so much. Batman had prior motivations to take down Superman. Batman was already on fire - Lex simply added fuel to the flames. Superman didn't want to fight Batman. He wanted to stop his careless vigilantism. In the end - Batman realized that Superman is psychologically human. So much so, that he doesn't even see a 1% chance that he could destroy humanity.

Pretty sure the Joker that killed Robin is already dead. The Worst Joker of All-Time is a new character IIRC.

You're right - that Worlds of DC is a mess. Snyder was the only man with a plan. They have nobody, now. With Marvel's peak come and gone, now would be their time to strike. They're more interested in solo franchises, though.

Where did you read that I assume you are talking about Leto's Joker is a new and different Joker?

I'm fine with solo movies but I just love the concept of these characters in the same world. When I was a kid, I could only attempt to get as many Spider-Man stories as I could. There were so many other characters with hundreds of issues, I just couldn't do it. But I loved that Amazing Spider-Man #1 cover with the Fantastic Four.

18 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Aside from the fact that, you're right, Batman's inclusion was a retrospective decision... Batman was retired in this story. TDKR is The Dark Knight Returns.

Also, I paged through some of that Dark Knight Returns comic and I was surprised how many panels I saw that were almost directly in Batman vs Superman. Very similar to the Watchmen comic to movie.

 

17 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

I think you came to the viewing with issues going into this film from what you are stating. And that's your right. But what a way to not enjoy a film.

So Bruce Wayne in daylight should have changed into his Batman costume/persona and rushed over to the Wayne Corporation HQ to save everyone that needed to get out immediately? Is that the logic?

Again, you can dislike what you want. But if you are going to come to a discussion with that logic, it is going to be questioned. That's the door you open.

Not to make a joke or it, but I do love that fight scene on the stairs in broad daylight in Dark Knight Rises. It reminds me so much of the 66 TV series with Batman and Robin running up the stairs.

Anyway, my feel is that DC should have put more thought into the story they were telling with Man of Steel and what the other DC characters were doing at that time. Affleck's Batman I think was sold as an older and mature veteran crime fighter. So you would think that maybe he would either be involved or doing more during the events of Man of Steel. Especially since the cities are so close. I get the position they are putting Batman in. But to me, it just doesn't work when you are selling an older and mature Batman even if he is dealing with a new situation.

I don't recall exactly which movie Tarantino was talking about once. He was vague about it. But once he said that a creator didn't put enough thought into the backstory of the world. And I think that's true with these movies.

And I pretty much go into movies blank. I think the only thing I saw of Batman vs Superman before the movie was the leaked, rough quality ComicCon trailer. And the first Batman and Batmobile image. That image was awesome since Batman looked straight out of the comics. I still purchased this Affleck Batman Iron Studio small statue because I do like that costume and the warehouse fight.

But in many ways I watch movies like I did when I was a kid. I'll look at the posters and that's it. I believe like Martin Scorsese said the posters invite you to dream or something like that. I would see poster images in the paper and was lucky to see many great movies. Batman 89 was and still is one of my best theater experiences. I think I only saw the big Bat symbol poster before seeing that movie.

In the end, I don't want to be like Kevin Smith joked I think about Batman vs Superman or one of the other DC movies. He said something like I'm going to watch it until I really like it. Or make myself like it. For me, I want to leave the theater and want the Hot Toys figure or a good statue. Maybe get the soundtrack and the official poster if it's good. Or see if Mondo or one of the other galleries make a poster. I mentioned that I have these.

 

 

I grew up watching the old Super Friends cartoon. I had a bunch of old DC items like figures and posters. I just really want to see a great series of movies with these characters.

Edited April 7, 2020 by GeneticNinja

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 hours ago, GeneticNinja said:

Where did you read that I assume you are talking about Leto's Joker is a new and different Joker?

I'm fine with solo movies but I just love the concept of these characters in the same world. When I was a kid, I could only attempt to get as many Spider-Man stories as I could. There were so many other characters with hundreds of issues, I just couldn't do it. But I loved that Amazing Spider-Man #1 cover with the Fantastic Four.

Also, I paged through some of that Dark Knight Returns comic and I was surprised how many panels I saw that were almost directly in Batman vs Superman. Very similar to the Watchmen comic to movie...

Pretty sure Snyder, or someone in charge of Suicide Squad, said that the Joker who killed Robin was already dead in Worlds of DC. Some speculated that Jason Todd is Leto's Joker. It was a long time ago. WODC is a joke, though, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was more than 1 theory on this whole thing. Note: Google isn't helping me corroborate this. Could be wrong, but that's what I've thought/known this whole time.

I agree. The coming together of JL was a dream-come-true (concept-wise). The interference by WB and theatrical release both butchered it. #ReleaseTheSnyderCut

Snyder is a true comic book fan. His visual style is phenomenal, and he did have a plan for Worlds of DC. It's too bad that we're left to suffer the consequences of his firing. I prefer the serious tones that his movies portray. It was severely lacking in Justice League.

[Bosco685]

5 hours ago, GeneticNinja said:

Anyway, my feel is that DC should have put more thought into the story they were telling with Man of Steel and what the other DC characters were doing at that time. Affleck's Batman I think was sold as an older and mature veteran crime fighter. So you would think that maybe he would either be involved or doing more during the events of Man of Steel. Especially since the cities are so close. I get the position they are putting Batman in. But to me, it just doesn't work when you are selling an older and mature Batman even if he is dealing with a new situation.

I appreciate your opinion, but that's faulty logic.

During Iron Man (2008), where were other superheroes while Iron Monger caused all that damage? At least Captain America was on ice at that point. He had a good excuse.

During Thor (2011) where were other superheroes as The Destroyer was tearing up a Midwestern town?

During Avengers (2012) where were other superheroes as the massive space-based attackers descend down on New York City? Later on it was estimated an attack of that size would have led to $160 billion in damaged.

THR: 'Avengers' Damage to Manhattan Would Cost $160 Billion, Disaster Expert Estimates

See? That logic can only take you so far when it is so selective.

5 hours ago, GeneticNinja said:

In the end, I don't want to be like Kevin Smith joked I think about Batman vs Superman or one of the other DC movies. He said something like I'm going to watch it until I really like it. Or make myself like it. For me, I want to leave the theater and want the Hot Toys figure or a good statue. Maybe get the soundtrack and the official poster if it's good. Or see if Mondo or one of the other galleries make a poster. I mentioned that I have these.

I remember that first-viewing response from Kevin Smith. Which was concerning. Remember how many times it took him to come back with a more positive experience? The second viewing.

Kevin Smith Has Now Found The Heart In ‘Batman v Superman: Dawn Of Justice,’ Offers New Assessment On The Film

Quote

Posting to Instagram from the set of “The Flash” where he’s directing an upcoming episode, Smith shared his new assessment of the movie following a second screening with his bud Jason Mewes (who also has a role in “The Flash” episode), who was seeing it for the first time. Here’s an excerpt of his post:

 

[Jason Mewes] LOVES his comic books – so much so that I’ve never heard him say he’s ever read a bad comic book (and I know for a fact he went deep on the I’ll-fated @marvel “New Universe” titles back in the day). He doesn’t dissect superhero material, he just consumes. Analyzing is for academics: Jay’s just there to see his heroes come to life. So to thank me for sneaking him into the @dccomics universe, Jay took me to see @batmanvsuperman again (my second time, his first). I liked the flick more on my second viewing (see 1 hour review on my #KevinSmith #youtube channel). I’d said the film didn’t have any heart, but after the second viewing, I actually found the heart in #batmanvsuperman: it’s in the viewer. And the viewer I watched the blockbuster with the second time was all agog, eyes as big as saucers. During the Knightmare sequence, we shared a moment that even elevated the flick for me: when the winged New Gods nasties attack #Batman and take him down, Jay (age 40) & I (age 45) simultaneously looked at one another and whispered reverently “ParaDemons.” It was a beautiful moment shared by two lifelong fanboys who were delighted to see their childhood flash before their eyes.

You can dislike what you want. No reason to convince you otherwise. But your points made have a bias to them, and there is a counter-argument to the thinking that is just as logical.

[media_junkie]

I personally feel that if the "BvS Ultimate Cut" had been released in theaters instead of the washed out "Theatrical Cut" we wouldn't be having this discussion.  I fully believe it would have cleared $1 billion, no problem.  Now is that to say that the "Ultimate Cut" is perfect?  No.  I still have my problems with it (espically Jessie Esinberg, I just don't like that guy, in any movie), but I think it did a much better job explaining motives and what not.

Why the studios cut it down is beyond me.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, media_junkie said:

I personally feel that if the "BvS Ultimate Cut" had been released in theaters instead of the washed out "Theatrical Cut" we wouldn't be having this discussion.  I fully believe it would have cleared $1 billion, no problem.  Now is that to say that the "Ultimate Cut" is perfect?  No.  I still have my problems with it (espically Jessie Esinberg, I just don't like that guy, in any movie), but I think it did a much better job explaining motives and what not.

Why the studios cut it down is beyond me.

Agreed on the fact this was the early part of WB over-reacting and forcing a shortened version most probably assuming modern audiences didn't have the patience and attention span for a 3-hour film.

They could have made this a big event film experience, with all sorts of creative marketing and future film release advertising coming from this production. Huge missed opportunity.

[GeneticNinja]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:33 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Pretty sure Snyder, or someone in charge of Suicide Squad, said that the Joker who killed Robin was already dead in Worlds of DC. Some speculated that Jason Todd is Leto's Joker. It was a long time ago. WODC is a joke, though, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was more than 1 theory on this whole thing. Note: Google isn't helping me corroborate this. Could be wrong, but that's what I've thought/known this whole time.

I agree. The coming together of JL was a dream-come-true (concept-wise). The interference by WB and theatrical release both butchered it. #ReleaseTheSnyderCut

Snyder is a true comic book fan. His visual style is phenomenal, and he did have a plan for Worlds of DC. It's too bad that we're left to suffer the consequences of his firing. I prefer the serious tones that his movies portray. It was severely lacking in Justice League.

 

His Sucker Punch movie is like a real anime. But that movie has problems as well with the story. I like the normal version over the director's cut on that one. But the action scenes are still pretty cool.

 

On 4/7/2020 at 6:41 AM, Bosco685 said:

I appreciate your opinion, but that's faulty logic.

During Iron Man (2008), where were other superheroes while Iron Monger caused all that damage? At least Captain America was on ice at that point. He had a good excuse.

During Thor (2011) where were other superheroes as The Destroyer was tearing up a Midwestern town?

During Avengers (2012) where were other superheroes as the massive space-based attackers descend down on New York City? Later on it was estimated an attack of that size would have led to $160 billion in damaged.

THR: 'Avengers' Damage to Manhattan Would Cost $160 Billion, Disaster Expert Estimates

See? That logic can only take you so far when it is so selective.

I remember that first-viewing response from Kevin Smith. Which was concerning. Remember how many times it took him to come back with a more positive experience? The second viewing.

Kevin Smith Has Now Found The Heart In ‘Batman v Superman: Dawn Of Justice,’ Offers New Assessment On The Film

You can dislike what you want. No reason to convince you otherwise. But your points made have a bias to them, and there is a counter-argument to the thinking that is just as logical.

With these super hero movies, I look at it like comics. Sometimes the stories are self contained or localized with the one hero or group. Unless something really big happens. There was a good issue of Amazing Spider-man where he fights Firelord. The Avengers show up at the end after basically a whole issue fight scene in the public with stuff blowing up.

For your examples, I look at it like this. But I'm not an expert on where all the heroes are.

1. Iron Man - I look at this as a local event. SHIELD is aware of what is going on. But this is a West Coast thing. And basically between two corporate guys.

2. Thor - As you said, that was in a small midwest town. A localized event. SHIELD was there too if I remember correctly.

Honestly, I have more problems with Iron Man 3 and Thor 2 if you want to use those as examples about where the other heroes are. I don't know much about Iron Patriot in the comics. But I thought shouldn't the kidnapping of the President of the United States involve Captain America? Perhaps I just don't recall the timeline and where Captain America is at that time.

Also I remember not liking Thor 2 much at all. It felt generic. The best part for me was when Thor hangs his hammer on the coat rack. I believe Thor 2 was after Avengers and there was yet another invasion. But it was just Thor.

There is a SHIELD TV show that I stopped watching as well. I think I only watched the first season of that show. But it felt disconnected from the Marvel movies even though it was supposed to be in the same universe.

And your final one.

3. The Avengers - Those were the heroes who were there to save the day. They were built up for that movie. Of course, we didn't have Spider-Man yet. I can't remember if or what they said he was doing during that time. I recall the timeline was messed up on Spider-Man Homecoming opening card that mentioned the time period.

 

It still doesn't sound like Kevin Smith made a complete turn around. Just that he enjoyed it with his friend. Remember there are things I like about the movie. The casting is fine. I like the design of the Batcave. A few of Wonder Woman's scenes. Batman warehouse fight, the Batmobile and Batplane scenes. How Superman shows up after coming back from getting rid of the bomb. Which at first I thought was from The Avengers but now I see a scene like that in the Dark Knight comic.

But it's mostly small bits that don't equal me really wanting to own the movie to watch regularly.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/11/2020 at 2:37 AM, GeneticNinja said:

His Sucker Punch movie is like a real anime. But that movie has problems as well with the story. I like the normal version over the director's cut on that one. But the action scenes are still pretty cool.

Snyder's a phenomenal director. Writer - not so much.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/11/2020 at 2:37 AM, GeneticNinja said:

With these super hero movies, I look at it like comics. Sometimes the stories are self contained or localized with the one hero or group. Unless something really big happens. There was a good issue of Amazing Spider-man where he fights Firelord. The Avengers show up at the end after basically a whole issue fight scene in the public with stuff blowing up.

For your examples, I look at it like this. But I'm not an expert on where all the heroes are.

1. Iron Man - I look at this as a local event. SHIELD is aware of what is going on. But this is a West Coast thing. And basically between two corporate guys.

2. Thor - As you said, that was in a small midwest town. A localized event. SHIELD was there too if I remember correctly.

Honestly, I have more problems with Iron Man 3 and Thor 2 if you want to use those as examples about where the other heroes are. I don't know much about Iron Patriot in the comics. But I thought shouldn't the kidnapping of the President of the United States involve Captain America? Perhaps I just don't recall the timeline and where Captain America is at that time.

Also I remember not liking Thor 2 much at all. It felt generic. The best part for me was when Thor hangs his hammer on the coat rack. I believe Thor 2 was after Avengers and there was yet another invasion. But it was just Thor.

There is a SHIELD TV show that I stopped watching as well. I think I only watched the first season of that show. But it felt disconnected from the Marvel movies even though it was supposed to be in the same universe.

And your final one.

3. The Avengers - Those were the heroes who were there to save the day. They were built up for that movie. Of course, we didn't have Spider-Man yet. I can't remember if or what they said he was doing during that time. I recall the timeline was messed up on Spider-Man Homecoming opening card that mentioned the time period.

It still doesn't sound like Kevin Smith made a complete turn around. Just that he enjoyed it with his friend. Remember there are things I like about the movie. The casting is fine. I like the design of the Batcave. A few of Wonder Woman's scenes. Batman warehouse fight, the Batmobile and Batplane scenes. How Superman shows up after coming back from getting rid of the bomb. Which at first I thought was from The Avengers but now I see a scene like that in the Dark Knight comic.

But it's mostly small bits that don't equal me really wanting to own the movie to watch regularly.

Even though the MCU is thought to 'ebb and flow' timelines around when they're released in theaters, I've always understood that Iron Man 3, The Dark World, and The Winter Soldier all occurred basically at the same time.

It's another thing that I could've sworn Feige said at some point. Not sure if there's an online article/interview that corroborates that.

[GeneticNinja]

On 4/13/2020 at 6:10 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Even though the MCU is thought to 'ebb and flow' timelines around when they're released in theaters, I've always understood that Iron Man 3, The Dark World, and The Winter Soldier all occurred basically at the same time.

It's another thing that I could've sworn Feige said at some point. Not sure if there's an online article/interview that corroborates that.

That could clear stuff up. It is difficult though with all those heroes to get everything to match and make sense. You need one person who knows everything and has a big timeline board. And then they have to want things to be consistent. I couldn't believe it back during the Star Wars prequels when I read two different versions of what happened during the same time period. I thought, don't they have someone who is in charge of this?

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 hours ago, GeneticNinja said:

That could clear stuff up. It is difficult though with all those heroes to get everything to match and make sense. You need one person who knows everything and has a big timeline board. And then they have to want things to be consistent. I couldn't believe it back during the Star Wars prequels when I read two different versions of what happened during the same time period. I thought, don't they have someone who is in charge of this?

The MCU is fairly consistent, but they do make continuity changes, and they also make mistakes (Homecoming).

There's also 10 trillion fan theories and it's sometimes difficult to remember if it came from Feige/Marvel or an article that you'd like to simply agree with.

[Gatsby77]

37 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

The MCU is fairly consistent, but they do make continuity changes, and they also make mistakes (Homecoming).

There's also 10 trillion fan theories and it's sometimes difficult to remember if it came from Feige/Marvel or an article that you'd like to simply agree with.

Curious - what were the mistakes with Homecoming?

I thought it was (easily) the second-best Spidey film (after Spider-Man 2).

[theCapraAegagrus]

3 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Curious - what were the mistakes with Homecoming?

I thought it was (easily) the second-best Spidey film (after Spider-Man 2).

The "8 Years Later". That would put Homecoming's timeline in 2020 since The Avengers occurred in 2012. I think that Sony screwed up and Marvel didn't catch it. I know that Feige has claimed "it wasn't a mistake" after the awareness of it, but he also said, "I don't think we would've done it the same way again".

Some have said The Avengers takes place in 2010, but even then, Homecoming couldn't occur in 2018 (could it?). And Vision firmly places Civil War in 2016 and Iron Man in 2008. Did Homecoming occur in 2018 and Infinity War in 2019? I guess I didn't consider that until right now.

I think that Homecoming is a great movie.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

The "8 Years Later". That would put Homecoming's timeline in 2020 since The Avengers occurred in 2012. I think that Sony screwed up and Marvel didn't catch it. I know that Feige has claimed "it wasn't a mistake" after the awareness of it, but he also said, "I don't think we would've done it the same way again".

Some have said The Avengers takes place in 2010, but even then, Homecoming couldn't occur in 2018 (could it?). And Vision firmly places Civil War in 2016 and Iron Man in 2008. Did Homecoming occur in 2018 and Infinity War in 2019? I guess I didn't consider that until right now.

I think that Homecoming is a great movie.

The MCU produced Spider-Man: Homecoming. How did Sony screw up?

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

The MCU produced Spider-Man: Homecoming. How did Sony screw up?

Co-produced.

They're both liable for the error.

[Gatsby77]

2 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

The "8 Years Later". That would put Homecoming's timeline in 2020 since The Avengers occurred in 2012. I think that Sony screwed up and Marvel didn't catch it. I know that Feige has claimed "it wasn't a mistake" after the awareness of it, but he also said, "I don't think we would've done it the same way again".

Some have said The Avengers takes place in 2010, but even then, Homecoming couldn't occur in 2018 (could it?). And Vision firmly places Civil War in 2016 and Iron Man in 2008. Did Homecoming occur in 2018 and Infinity War in 2019? I guess I didn't consider that until right now.

I think that Homecoming is a great movie.

I think you're correct here - that Avengers took place earlier than 2012, thus not conflicting with the later Infinity War timeline. I'd have to re-watch it to be sure.

[Bosco685]

39 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Co-produced.

They're both liable for the error.

Glad we got that straight. You were putting the blame on Sony only. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Glad we got that straight. You were putting the blame on Sony only. 

You wanna fight bro?

The "Marvel didn't catch it" is their share of the blame. That's all speculation, anyways. I don't know which studio chose the "8 Years Later" card. I'm just conveying some meaningless conjecture.

The reaction/dialogue by Feige makes it seem to me that Sony put it in there and Marvel overlooked it.

[Bosco685]

45 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

You wanna fight bro?

The "Marvel didn't catch it" is their share of the blame. That's all speculation, anyways. I don't know which studio chose the "8 Years Later" card. I'm just conveying some meaningless conjecture.

The reaction/dialogue by Feige makes it seem to me that Sony put it in there and Marvel overlooked it.

No way Feige missed it. All the details are on a chalk board sitting in his office that then goes across all the wall.

[theCapraAegagrus]

My mom wanted to re-watch the Ultimate Edition next time I visited, which was Saturday.

2 new things I noticed:

• Luthor (the "fixer") is the one who setup the meeting between the General and Lois Lane. I simply thought his goons were there because they somehow knew about the meeting.
• Diana Prince rolls her eyes when Luthor is speaking about the Greek Gods.

Let the record show that my mother loves Eisenberg's adaptation of Alexander Luthor.

[Bosco685]