Why do people think New Mutants #98 had a "high print run"...? 0

[dupont2005]

Legends Of The Dark Knight seemed hard to find at my comic shop. As a kid I didn't know what day comics were released, or that they were released every week, so I went to the comic shop once a month. It's possible the title just always sold through, but I only managed to buy a small handful of issues before I quit comics.

[Bosco685]

It definitely was being gobbled up as buyers could find them. Especially that first story arc. Some of the stores in my area of NJ started charging $8 for the first book within only two weeks being out, and sometimes $10-$12 for the Yellow and Pink because it was rumored these were low distribution.

 

It definitely had some really nice looking artwork, though the story was okay.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Now, if we are saying collectors were not buying cases of these books then, I cannot argue with that. But to say speculation was not occurring when NM 98 came out is not true.

 

I don't see where anyone said speculation wasn't occurring. Did you have a specific comment in mind?

 

I certainly was speculating. From #93 on, I bought 15 copies of each book, all the way up to #100, because I believed Liefeld was the new McFarlane.

 

And he was. Kinda.

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Now, if we are saying collectors were not buying cases of these books then, I cannot argue with that. But to say speculation was not occurring when NM 98 came out is not true.

 

I don't see where anyone said speculation wasn't occurring. Did you have a specific comment in mind?

 

I certainly was speculating. From #93 on, I bought 15 copies of each book, all the way up to #100, because I believed Liefeld was the new McFarlane.

 

And he was. Kinda.

I was initially just buying one of each, but I found a bunch of extra 86s and was buying multiples as of the early to mid 90s. Time to slab the 7 98s.

[FoomMember]

Some facts:

 

#1. Deadpool was NOT a "hot character" at the time that New Mutants #98 was published. In Deadpool's first year of existence, he appeared in a total of five comic books: NM #98, X-Force #1, 2, 4, and 5. Of those, three were cameos. Of those, two of them...X-Force #1 and #4...were single panel cameos. It would take quite some time for Deadpool to become much of anything, quite unlike the scenario with Cable and Gambit.

 

#2. 250k copies is the entire print run for the issue, nearly 30% of which were distributed to newsstands, most of which would have been subject to destruction as returns from news agents. That would make the total available supply about 175,000-200,000 copies from the beginning.

 

#3. The print run for the book, about 250k, was roughly typical Marvel at the time, during a period when the print run for Spiderman was 750,000, and X-Men (Uncanny) was in the 600,000s, for perspective. X-Factor at the time had a print run in the 400,000s. Fantastic Four had a print run of 300,000 at the exact same time period, and FF was not a "hot" title.

 

#4. Deadpool would not become a hot character in his own right until his 1993 mini-series, two+ years after his first appearance. At that time, New Mutants #98 "broke out" and became a $5-$15 book. However, this proved to be a flash in the pan, and soon petered out, and NM #98 would become a cold book for the next decade and a half.

 

#5. Because NM #98 had this small breakout during 1993, many thousands of copies that had been hoarded initially were distributed, as speculators and hoarders took advantage of the mini-bump in popularity, spreading out the print run amongst more owners.

 

#6. After that, the crash of 95-96, and the great malaise of 1997-2002, took its toll on just about every formerly "hot" mainstream comic from the previous nearly 20 years. NM #98 wasn't even able to keep New Mutants #87 or X-Men #266 status, and settled right back to being a "dollar issue" for the 15 years after the first mini. After the crash and during the malaise, nearly all the speculators were driven completely from the entire industry, and any remaining hoards that were not distributed during the light 1993 market spire were then dumped and absorbed into the greater market, or forgotten in boxes. In all cases, attrition took its toll. To imagine that only 10% of the print run was lost to attrition after 15 years of essentially no demand, and nearly 23 years of existence, is not really within the realm of reason.

 

#7. New Mutants #98 was nothing like Amazing Spiderman #361, which was, indeed, hot from the beginning, because of the immense visual appeal of Carnage, as well as the excellent layout of its cover. Carnage was an immediate hit from the moment #361 hit the stands.

 

While an available pool of 175,000-200,000 copies may seem like a lot in this era of 30,000 average print runs for mid-level Marvel books, the fact is, the book is 23 years old and went through the majority of that time as a book with almost no demand. This is why the book continues to defy projections and rises in value, while at the same time, books like X-Force #2 see very little increase (in fact, the book can still be found in dollar boxes, while even ratty copies of NM #98 are $50+.) There simply isn't the supply that some think there is or should be, and never was.

 

The same thing could happen with a book like New Mutants #99, or Detective Comics #647, if Feral or the Spoiler ever become as popular as Deadpool. Yes, not anywhere near possible, but that's what would happen.

 

 

 

 

 

First, wanna thank RMA [still out there?] for this insightful look at this question.

 

Since this was posted, is there any more info as to the print run?

 

Once the movie [now] is out, will it cool off?

 

Jus' wonderin'

 

thanks

[Vikingreed]

From Liefeld -

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/rob-liefeld-looks-back-deadpools-real-secret-origin

 

They let me introduce Cable, and "New Mutants" #87 has eleven new characters in the first issue. It is like we showcased all new villains and this powerful new character that was designed to take over the book and transform it. And our sales went boom! We went up twenty-five thousand, and then we went up fifty thousand, and then in no time, we were at half-a-million.

[Vikingreed]

Also of interest about how "hot" he was -

 

Marvel had actually forwarded that mail on to me. I had thought they had sent me a washer or a dryer. I thought, "I'm getting some awesome gift from Marvel!" But it was all the mail from "New Mutants" #98. My editors said, "Rob, can we fast-track Deadpool? This is the most mail we've seen on a character in 15 years. People love him." It's why Deadpool is a trading card with "X-Force" #1, and a Fact File, and why he is the first 12 pages of "X-Force" #2. "X-Force" #1 is the second best-selling comic of all time; it sold five million copies. You have to ask yourself, "Why does the second issue begin with Deadpool for 12 pages?" Because the fans demanded it.


[FoomMember]

Man...that's the bomb. Never knew all that was attached.

 

Thanks Vike!

[lou_fine]

Some facts:

 

 

#4. Deadpool would not become a hot character in his own right until his 1993 mini-series, two+ years after his first appearance. At that time, New Mutants #98 "broke out" and became a $5-$15 book. However, this proved to be a flash in the pan, and soon petered out, and NM #98 would become a cold book for the next decade and a half.

 

#5. Because NM #98 had this small breakout during 1993, many thousands of copies that had been hoarded initially were distributed, as speculators and hoarders took advantage of the mini-bump in popularity, spreading out the print run amongst more owners.

 

 

Now, if we are saying collectors were not buying cases of these books then, I cannot argue with that. But to say speculation was not occurring when NM 98 came out is not true.

 

I don't see where anyone said speculation wasn't occurring. Did you have a specific comment in mind?

 

I certainly was speculating. From #93 on, I bought 15 copies of each book, all the way up to #100, because I believed Liefeld was the new McFarlane.

 

And he was. Kinda.

I was initially just buying one of each, but I found a bunch of extra 86s and was buying multiples as of the early to mid 90s. Time to slab the 7 98s.

 

Exactly why I believe there are still a lot of raw HG copies out there. The collectors who brought it on the first mini-bump probably still have most of their copies in the same HG condition. Not UHG, but still in HG condition.

 

Even at the smaller local conventions here, I still see raw HG copies of this book at most of the dealer booths. Of course, it would appear that they are asking for almost slab prices on them. Any idea what the census numbers are on this book in 9.2 condition and above?

 

RMA: Hope you still have your 15 copies of NM 98 or did you sell most of them off during the first min-bump back in '93?

[the blob]

"and settled right back to being a "dollar issue" for the 15 years after the first mini"

 

I've written it here 100 times, I never saw this book in a dollar bin and that is what I was hunting from the mid-90s onward. I have over 20,000 comics bought out of dollar type boxes. And I was looking for it as I thought that after the crash some of those Liefield NMs could have potential and would buy them and I liked the Deadpool mini. Somehow I scavenged 4 copies of NM 87. Not one copy of 98. Maybe collectors in NY were smart and these were sucked out of every cheap box at every show I went to before I got there.

 

One time I found one in a 5/$1 box, but the shop owner realized the mistake and yanked it out of my pile.

 

Not saying they weren't out there, it's a big country, but it's not like many other 90s books where you could go to a show and find several in dollar boxes with ease.

 

98 was like the Alf seal sodomy issue...I'd hit the section with the Liefield New Mutants, just like I hit some Alfs, and I'd say "this is going to be the day!"..and no luck.

 

Same thing re: Harbinger 1.

 

Of course, if my cheap arse looked in $2, 3/$10 and $5 boxes back then I could probably have 6 long boxes of these, but I'm an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. It was a book I was looking for, but only at $1.

Edited February 14, 2016 by the blob

[AKA Rick]

Beyond print runs, there are "survival rates" and most modern comics have a high one, where older books, especially pre1980's have a lower one. With New Mutants always carrying a certain level of prestige, even out of the gate with collector's fanfare, at any given point if you have the cash, it can be easily obtained and is not scarce, where older comic issues are true treasure hunts.

 

But despite the high print run, I wonder of those who are buying the, are they purchased out of fandom or investment speculation, further or to the later, are there collectors out there holding multiple copies, either driving up the prices or ensuring the investments in the positions they hold don't falter, so continue to cost average and buy buy buy?

[Gatsby77]

My take, speculation was definitely a factor with the later issues of New Mutants. And here is why I know this, I have 3 copies of NM 98 in my collection that I bought new. (I also have 3 of NM 99 and 5 of NM 100.) I didn't have any foresight into which issues were hot or not, but I did follow trends and buy multiples of the books others were also buying multiples of. New Mutants was getting buzz because of Rob Liefeld and if I recall, Marvel had already announced it was getting rebooted as X-Force and NM 98 was going to have the first appearance of the members of that team. (Yes, I was a lemming in my younger collecting years.) I'm also positive Deadpool was not the draw for NM 98 at the time, but it was the first appearance of the X-Force team that was the reason for that book's buzz.

 

If I recall, one of the earlier books that people speculated on from this period was Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight 1 in 1989. This was the first new Batman comic to come out since Batman 1 and I, along with lots of other collectors, bought the multiple colored covers and some extras.

 

Now, if we are saying collectors were not buying cases of these books then, I cannot argue with that. But to say speculation was not occurring when NM 98 came out is not true. And in a few short years, speculation was so rampant, record sales were being set on comics (X-Force 1, Spider-Man 1, X-Men 1, Turok 1, etc.)

 

This.

 

This post x 1000.

 

Everyone I knew who was collecting comics at the time bought New Mutants 93-100.

 

(See RMA's statement that he bought 15x # 93-100. Pretty much everybody bought that run, & we were all pissed that we'd missed out on NM # 86-89.)

 

Sure, most collectors (myself included) only bought _multiples_ of 93-94 (for the Wolverine v. Cable battle), 95-97 (for the X-Tinction Agenda storyline) & 100 (1st appearance of X-Force).

 

But we _all_ bought 98 off the stands. A few of my friends bought a couple doubles of NM 98 when it went to $6-$8 a few months later but that was because it was the first appearance of Domino, a key member of X-Force.

 

The Deadpool first appearance hype came much, much letter.

 

BTW, we all started buying X-Factor in duplicates with the X-Tinction Agenda storyline as well.

 

As with the latter Liefeld issues of New Mutants, this came in handy by accident a few months later when the early Portacio issues took off.

 

60-75 or so was an amazing run, but it went like this:

 

60-62 -- X-Tinction Agenda

63-64 -- 1st few Portacio issues (had value)

68 -- brief Wizard-fueled rumor re. Cable/baby X-Men 201 tie-in, so some value

71 -- new team

[lou_fine]

Everyone I knew who was collecting comics at the time bought New Mutants 93-100.

 

(See RMA's statement that he bought 15x # 93-100. Pretty much everybody bought that run, & we were all pissed that we'd missed out on NM # 86-89.)

 

Sure, most collectors (myself included) only bought _multiples_ of 93-94 (for the Wolverine v. Cable battle), 95-97 (for the X-Tinction Agenda storyline) & 100 (1st appearance of X-Force).

 

But we _all_ bought 98 off the stands. A few of my friends bought a couple doubles of NM 98 when it went to $6-$8 a few months later but that was because it was the first appearance of Domino, a key member of X-Force.

 

The Deadpool first appearance hype came much, much letter.

 

BTW, we all started buying X-Factor in duplicates with the X-Tinction Agenda storyline as well.

 

 

I so much wish your initial statement in bold above was true.

 

But I can personally tell you that it is absolutely incorrect as my run ran from #86 through to #95 only. I believe I probably stopped because I simply couldn't take anymore of Liefeld's cover artwork after that.

 

You are right about the multiples because I believe I have doubles for the #86 and #87, and probably went crazy with a triple for #93 since I have always loved green covers. If it wasn't for the #87, I would probably never be able to recoup the $20 or so which I had to spend on this run here.

 

Don't believe this little run of mine's has actually gone up in value in almost 30 years now since their initial pop. Except for #87, the rest of them are probably drek by now and sitting unwanted in the dollar boxes.

 

Maybe I'll be lucky enough and find a copy of NM 98 somewhere as the filing of my collection really follows the random walk approach, but I strongly doubt it as I don't remember any of those other covers except for issue #100.

[Plantman]

Some facts:

 

 

#4. Deadpool would not become a hot character in his own right until his 1993 mini-series, two+ years after his first appearance. At that time, New Mutants #98 "broke out" and became a $5-$15 book. However, this proved to be a flash in the pan, and soon petered out, and NM #98 would become a cold book for the next decade and a half.

 

#5. Because NM #98 had this small breakout during 1993, many thousands of copies that had been hoarded initially were distributed, as speculators and hoarders took advantage of the mini-bump in popularity, spreading out the print run amongst more owners.

 

 

Now, if we are saying collectors were not buying cases of these books then, I cannot argue with that. But to say speculation was not occurring when NM 98 came out is not true.

 

I don't see where anyone said speculation wasn't occurring. Did you have a specific comment in mind?

 

I certainly was speculating. From #93 on, I bought 15 copies of each book, all the way up to #100, because I believed Liefeld was the new McFarlane.

 

And he was. Kinda.

I was initially just buying one of each, but I found a bunch of extra 86s and was buying multiples as of the early to mid 90s. Time to slab the 7 98s.

 

Exactly why I believe there are still a lot of raw HG copies out there. The collectors who brought it on the first mini-bump probably still have most of their copies in the same HG condition. Not UHG, but still in HG condition.

 

Even at the smaller local conventions here, I still see raw HG copies of this book at most of the dealer booths. Of course, it would appear that they are asking for almost slab prices on them. Any idea what the census numbers are on this book in 9.2 condition and above?

 

RMA: Hope you still have your 15 copies of NM 98 or did you sell most of them off during the first min-bump back in '93?

 

He made a lot of money.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Some facts:

 

 

#4. Deadpool would not become a hot character in his own right until his 1993 mini-series, two+ years after his first appearance. At that time, New Mutants #98 "broke out" and became a $5-$15 book. However, this proved to be a flash in the pan, and soon petered out, and NM #98 would become a cold book for the next decade and a half.

 

#5. Because NM #98 had this small breakout during 1993, many thousands of copies that had been hoarded initially were distributed, as speculators and hoarders took advantage of the mini-bump in popularity, spreading out the print run amongst more owners.

 

 

Now, if we are saying collectors were not buying cases of these books then, I cannot argue with that. But to say speculation was not occurring when NM 98 came out is not true.

 

I don't see where anyone said speculation wasn't occurring. Did you have a specific comment in mind?

 

I certainly was speculating. From #93 on, I bought 15 copies of each book, all the way up to #100, because I believed Liefeld was the new McFarlane.

 

And he was. Kinda.

I was initially just buying one of each, but I found a bunch of extra 86s and was buying multiples as of the early to mid 90s. Time to slab the 7 98s.

 

Exactly why I believe there are still a lot of raw HG copies out there. The collectors who brought it on the first mini-bump probably still have most of their copies in the same HG condition. Not UHG, but still in HG condition.

 

Even at the smaller local conventions here, I still see raw HG copies of this book at most of the dealer booths. Of course, it would appear that they are asking for almost slab prices on them. Any idea what the census numbers are on this book in 9.2 condition and above?

 

RMA: Hope you still have your 15 copies of NM 98 or did you sell most of them off during the first min-bump back in '93?

 

He made a lot of money.

 

And I would have made more, if it wasn't for you meddling ki....er, if I'd just held on to them a little while longer!

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

From Liefeld -

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/rob-liefeld-looks-back-deadpools-real-secret-origin

 

They let me introduce Cable, and "New Mutants" #87 has eleven new characters in the first issue. It is like we showcased all new villains and this powerful new character that was designed to take over the book and transform it. And our sales went boom! We went up twenty-five thousand, and then we went up fifty thousand, and then in no time, we were at half-a-million.

 

Most everything Liefeld says must, must, MUST be taken with several grains of salt.

 

Example:

 

"My editors said, "Rob, can we fast-track Deadpool? This is the most mail we've seen on a character in 15 years. People love him." It's why Deadpool is a trading card with "X-Force" #1, and a Fact File, and why he is the first 12 pages of "X-Force" #2. "X-Force" #1 is the second best-selling comic of all time; it sold five million copies. You have to ask yourself, "Why does the second issue begin with Deadpool for 12 pages?" Because the fans demanded it.
"

 

Nonsense.

 

Why?

 

Because Deadpool wasn't featured in the book AGAIN until issue #11, outside of the cameos of #4, #5, and #10.

 

Cable, on the other hand, is PROMINENTLY featured on most of the covers of that run.

 

If what Rob says is true, Deadpool should have easily spun off into his own series at that point...after all: both Silver Sable and Nomad got their own ongoing titles.

 

Deadpool, however, didn't get his own series for another SIX years, after TWO minis (1993 and 1994) failed to ignite popular demand for the character.

 

And his "sales went boom!" comment is erroneous, too. Sales did OK...they improved quite a bit...a good 50-75%...but they didn't go "boom", and the only issue of New Mutants to EVER sell half a million copies was issue #100.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Some facts:

 

#1. Deadpool was NOT a "hot character" at the time that New Mutants #98 was published. In Deadpool's first year of existence, he appeared in a total of five comic books: NM #98, X-Force #1, 2, 4, and 5. Of those, three were cameos. Of those, two of them...X-Force #1 and #4...were single panel cameos. It would take quite some time for Deadpool to become much of anything, quite unlike the scenario with Cable and Gambit.

 

#2. 250k copies is the entire print run for the issue, nearly 30% of which were distributed to newsstands, most of which would have been subject to destruction as returns from news agents. That would make the total available supply about 175,000-200,000 copies from the beginning.

 

#3. The print run for the book, about 250k, was roughly typical Marvel at the time, during a period when the print run for Spiderman was 750,000, and X-Men (Uncanny) was in the 600,000s, for perspective. X-Factor at the time had a print run in the 400,000s. Fantastic Four had a print run of 300,000 at the exact same time period, and FF was not a "hot" title.

 

#4. Deadpool would not become a hot character in his own right until his 1993 mini-series, two+ years after his first appearance. At that time, New Mutants #98 "broke out" and became a $5-$15 book. However, this proved to be a flash in the pan, and soon petered out, and NM #98 would become a cold book for the next decade and a half.

 

#5. Because NM #98 had this small breakout during 1993, many thousands of copies that had been hoarded initially were distributed, as speculators and hoarders took advantage of the mini-bump in popularity, spreading out the print run amongst more owners.

 

#6. After that, the crash of 95-96, and the great malaise of 1997-2002, took its toll on just about every formerly "hot" mainstream comic from the previous nearly 20 years. NM #98 wasn't even able to keep New Mutants #87 or X-Men #266 status, and settled right back to being a "dollar issue" for the 15 years after the first mini. After the crash and during the malaise, nearly all the speculators were driven completely from the entire industry, and any remaining hoards that were not distributed during the light 1993 market spire were then dumped and absorbed into the greater market, or forgotten in boxes. In all cases, attrition took its toll. To imagine that only 10% of the print run was lost to attrition after 15 years of essentially no demand, and nearly 23 years of existence, is not really within the realm of reason.

 

#7. New Mutants #98 was nothing like Amazing Spiderman #361, which was, indeed, hot from the beginning, because of the immense visual appeal of Carnage, as well as the excellent layout of its cover. Carnage was an immediate hit from the moment #361 hit the stands.

 

While an available pool of 175,000-200,000 copies may seem like a lot in this era of 30,000 average print runs for mid-level Marvel books, the fact is, the book is 23 years old and went through the majority of that time as a book with almost no demand. This is why the book continues to defy projections and rises in value, while at the same time, books like X-Force #2 see very little increase (in fact, the book can still be found in dollar boxes, while even ratty copies of NM #98 are $50+.) There simply isn't the supply that some think there is or should be, and never was.

 

The same thing could happen with a book like New Mutants #99, or Detective Comics #647, if Feral or the Spoiler ever become as popular as Deadpool. Yes, not anywhere near possible, but that's what would happen.

 

 

 

 

 

First, wanna thank RMA [still out there?] for this insightful look at this question.

 

 

Since this was posted, is there any more info as to the print run?

 

Once the movie [now] is out, will it cool off?

 

Jus' wonderin'

 

thanks

 

No, that print run is pretty well established, within a couple 10,000 or so.

 

Will the book cool off? Who knows? Strange new world we're in.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and no, X-Force #1 is NOT the "second best selling comic of all time."

 

First, the "5 million figure" is totally unconfirmed.

 

Second, Superman #75, with its four printings, actually sold 4 million first printings, which forced DC to go to three more subsequent printings.

 

 

[Broke as a Joke]

From Liefeld -

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/rob-liefeld-looks-back-deadpools-real-secret-origin

 

They let me introduce Cable, and "New Mutants" #87 has eleven new characters in the first issue. It is like we showcased all new villains and this powerful new character that was designed to take over the book and transform it. And our sales went boom! We went up twenty-five thousand, and then we went up fifty thousand, and then in no time, we were at half-a-million.

 

Most everything Liefeld says must, must, MUST be taken with several grains of salt.

 

Example:

 

"My editors said, "Rob, can we fast-track Deadpool? This is the most mail we've seen on a character in 15 years. People love him." It's why Deadpool is a trading card with "X-Force" #1, and a Fact File, and why he is the first 12 pages of "X-Force" #2. "X-Force" #1 is the second best-selling comic of all time; it sold five million copies. You have to ask yourself, "Why does the second issue begin with Deadpool for 12 pages?" Because the fans demanded it.
"

 

Nonsense.

 

Why?

 

Because Deadpool wasn't featured in the book AGAIN until issue #11, outside of the cameos of #4, #5, and #10.

 

Cable, on the other hand, is PROMINENTLY featured on most of the covers of that run.

 

If what Rob says is true, Deadpool should have easily spun off into his own series at that point...after all: both Silver Sable and Nomad got their own ongoing titles.

 

Deadpool, however, didn't get his own series for another SIX years, after TWO minis (1993 and 1994) failed to ignite popular demand for the character.

 

And his "sales went boom!" comment is erroneous, too. Sales did OK...they improved quite a bit...a good 50-75%...but they didn't go "boom", and the only issue of New Mutants to EVER sell half a million copies was issue #100.

 

Not sure if your reasoning is enough to truly discredit Liefeld himself there. X-Force 2 on the cover it even says "Deadpools Back!!" Not sure they would even do that unless fans were interested in the character. As for why Deadpool didn't get his own series right away, who really knows? And the powers that be at Marvel were not happy with Liefeld and the Image boys, so maybe they didn't want to give his creation more shine on purpose.

[NewWorldOrder]

225-250K is what has been previously established, I thought.

 

:shrug:

 

 

 

-slym

 

Considering I find HG copies of this book 24/7 and CGC has already graded almost 10k copies....

 

Yes this book has a pretty big print run and very common, however it is now a mega key of the copper age. No difference now in ASM 300 and NM 98. Blue chip book.

 

250K copies is a lot for our hobby even back then.

 

I will be finding this book till I die.

 

I found 4 alone at Terry's show.

 

Edited February 22, 2016 by NewWorldOrder