How do YOU feel about the "price guide" in the OSPG?

[AlexanderM]

Overstreet came out of a very different collecting world. A world where by chatting with a relatively few big dealers, he could come up with reasonably accurate retail prices for what were a fairly limited number of books that were actively collected -- no one much cared what prices he listed for romance, most humor, and most funny animal books because nobody collected them.

 

Right from the beginning, people referred to it as the "Overpriced Guide" because they argued too many prices represented what the dealers he talked to wished they could sell books for rather than what they actually could sell books for. Not entirely a fair criticism, though.

 

I think the guide is still pretty accurate for GA books. Check the prices in recent Heritage auctions and I think you will find that the great majority of them are within 10% of Overstreet. He always said that he didn't think it was the role of the guide to track price increases on hot books -- until the price increases had stood the test of time. This policy is helpful to buyers, I think, by making them think twice about buying books that are currently priced way over guide but that may not be able to sustain those prices. Obviously, that position makes the guide useless for people these days who are looking to flip hot modern books. But who would use an annual guide for that purpose anyway?

 

He was probably too slow to ratchet down prices of mid-grade Marvel SA, most duck books, Classics, and some others that turned out to be very common once eBay started. You could argue that he is still too high on many of those books. As many other people have said, checking eBay, HA's archives, and GPA -- along with Overstreet -- makes sense for sellers trying to determine FMV.

 

Sure. Historically it has had a huge impact. Now the data that everyone can access (GPA, Ebay, Heritage, etc.) is better and the impact is less, but it is still a pretty good ball park figure in there imo.

[slym2none]

You do know that GPA is for graded books, not "raw" ones? Vive-versa for the OSPG?

 

Just checking, please don't get offended if you do. It just seems misleading to tell people who are not content with using the OSPG that GPA is another good source of info. It is, but not for raw books, which is what the OSPG deals in and why this thread was made.

 

 

 

-slym

 

 

[AlexanderM]

You do know that GPA is for graded books, not "raw" ones? Vive-versa for the OSPG?

 

Just checking, please don't get offended if you do. It just seems misleading to tell people who are not content with using the OSPG that GPA is another good source of info. It is, but not for raw books, which is what the OSPG deals in and why this thread was made.

 

 

 

-slym

 

 

Sure, you are right. I just feel that a 6.0 book is a 6.0 book and should be priced accordingly (with a bit added for the slab possibly). Usually we would add a bit to the slab for lowering our risk about the grade and restoration etc. However, OSPG probably talks about a 6,0 book and not a book that someone thinks is a 6,0 but may or may ot be. In other words I guess it assumes that a 6.0 is worth X $ not considering the risk of wrong grading etc. Therefore the difference between prices of graded and raw should be minimal - or should it even be there?

 

This is when OSPG says a 6.0 is X and GPA says a 6.0 is Y. Probably the two prices should be the same.

 

In reality most people would not be convinced the raw 6,0 is actually a 6.0 and demand a lower price in return for a higher risk. But that is a different issue.

[Offbeat Archives]

Over time I've come to realize that with the OPG, their position is a bit complicated. While my biggest criticism is that they won't drop all of the clutter... if a book isn't worth at least $10 in 9.2, it shouldn't be in a collectibles guide... they have a rather impossible task before them due to the nature of many comics collectors.

 

Rightly or wrongly Oversteet set it as his duty to try to maintain market stability and long-term collector interest in the hobby. The problem is, the vast majority of even golden and silver-age issues are truly collected by very few individuals in the overall scheme of things.

 

Many comics maintain a value based simply on it being seen as a bargain compared to Overstreet. I might sell an obscure 1940s humor issue at $10 if OPG says it's worth $20, because a buyer will likley feel, what the heck, if it's half-price, even though it's a goofy issue, how can I go wrong? But if OPG reduces the price to actual selling value of $10, it immediately is now worth only $5 because the book will rarely sell unless it is peceived as a "bargain". Reduce it again, etc., etc.

 

Moreover, as a dealer BUYING collections, it is difficult to buy them at too low a percentage below OPG, because the public sees OPG as definitive... especially non-collectors looking to move estates. Thus the OPG actually creates its own market prices, as dealers are often forced to buy at certain fixed percentages and then retail-price accordingly. Up to a point, OPG is a self-fulfilling prophecy. That has eroded somewhat over the years, of course, but is still a powerful force when dealing with would-be sellers.

 

I laugh when people suggest using eBay, especially for raw books. And the number of raw books I purchase vs. slabbed books per year is about 5,000 to 1. eBay has no meaning since there is no standardized grading, no way of confirming real bids vs. shilled ones, no way to know if buyers even received what was advertised, etc. I can't imagine, either, someone selling me 500 silver-age books in a wide range of conditions, waiting while I check them all out for current values on eBay!

 

GPA, which I subscribe to, is essential for large dealers, but extremely limited. It's great for hot trend books, very high grades, and keys.

 

For example, awhile back I bought a complete run of Top-Notch Comics from the '40s. The highest grades were about 6.0, while most were in a range of 1.0 to 4.0, with some restored books and even a few incompletes. Not a single one of these issues in these grades were well-represented in GPA because collectors simply don't get lower-grade books like these slabbed. Many of the later issues were represented on GPA by only 1 or 2 copies, and these were obviously high-grade pedigrees. Needless to say, the odds of there being recent sales of this sort of material on eBay are also remote.

 

So OPG, combined with lots of experience (so many would-be dealers never understand this) is about the only way to determine value, especially comparatively between issues. It at least gives you a starting point not available in other mediums.

 

 

 

Very well stated, Tim.

[the blob]

You do know that GPA is for graded books, not "raw" ones? Vive-versa for the OSPG?

 

Just checking, please don't get offended if you do. It just seems misleading to tell people who are not content with using the OSPG that GPA is another good source of info. It is, but not for raw books, which is what the OSPG deals in and why this thread was made.

 

 

 

-slym

 

 

Sure, you are right. I just feel that a 6.0 book is a 6.0 book and should be priced accordingly (with a bit added for the slab possibly). Usually we would add a bit to the slab for lowering our risk about the grade and restoration etc. However, OSPG probably talks about a 6,0 book and not a book that someone thinks is a 6,0 but may or may ot be. In other words I guess it assumes that a 6.0 is worth X $ not considering the risk of wrong grading etc. Therefore the difference between prices of graded and raw should be minimal - or should it even be there?

 

This is when OSPG says a 6.0 is X and GPA says a 6.0 is Y. Probably the two prices should be the same.

 

In reality most people would not be convinced the raw 6,0 is actually a 6.0 and demand a lower price in return for a higher risk. But that is a different issue.

 

Well, if slabbing a book costs $30 the "bit added" should be at least $30 when taking into account these things. Seems that it should be more than $30 though because you have certaintly -- it says 6.0/no resto right there on the lable, you don't have to take the time/risk to sent it into CGC to confirm you got what you paid for.

 

With that said, GPA is useless for a $20 book.

[Dr. Balls]

Man, I wish people only marked up books $30 for slabbing.

[Artboy99]

Excellent discussion.

 

OSPG has it's uses, but I agree that many prices need updating. Many of the key books are very undervalued a good example is Hulk #1 which I can say with some degree of certainty is selling for 1500.00 per point so a 4.0 is $6000. Not so in the OSPG.

 

I also agree there are books that are way over guide. Books mentioned, low grade copies are prime examples. Guide for some low grade FF's as an example are 10-20 dollars each in good, and these are 5 dollar books at best at the conventions I do.

 

I find the OSPG makes it difficult to purchase collections, as it is a challenge to explain to the owner his copy of FF 70 in 2.0 is not worth what the guide says let alone the challenge of convincing the owner that the condition of his book is not Nm or F but is in fact VG+.

 

I still buy a copy of the OSPG every year, it is an excellent resource for getting a conversation started in buying and selling comics. The rest is experience as a buyer/ seller and knowing where to find current and up to date data. I use GPA/ Ebay / and other auction sites such as Heritage/ Comiclink/ Comicconnect.

[slym2none]

It is also difficult to explain that, per the OSPG, their books aren't worth what it says they are and then use the OSPG's grading system to tell them their books are not in the condition they claim. I actually had someone use that on me, "if I can't trust one part, why should I trust the other?"

 

No deal was done that day.

 

 

 

-slym

[the blob]

Man, I wish people only marked up books $30 for slabbing.

 

sure, on 9.8s it's a lot bigger than that

 

but for some mid-grade marvel SA semi-key the market may not be willing to pay even a $30 premium. i see 5.0 slabbed books that sell for what raw "6.0s" are going for where the slabbed book looks much better and the 6.0 would likely get a 4.5 from CGC.

 

but then, in GA, probably because there is SO much resto, it seems like the slabbing fee gets returned in the sale price and then some

 

of course, my observations are nothing more than anectodal, it just seemed that way when I was pricing up a bunch of $75-$250 type books, I didn't see a financial benefit to slabbing some of those 3.0 - 6.0 type books.

[Tony S]

In my expeirence the guide overvalues 80% of books, is spot on for 15% and undervalues the 5%.

 

The 5% that are undervalued are generally major keys and hot books.

 

In terms of total value there is probably a balance so that an even $ amount of overvaluing and undervaluing.

Very interesting. Can you show proof of your hypothesis,or are you blowing those figures out your azz.

 

Mostly the latter

 

This is of course just a gut feeling... no hard science...

 

For what it is worth, I think Alexander's numbers are in the ball park. I might put the overpriced number around 70% and spot on at 25%, but that's just guesstimates. And I base this on many years of selling books. Which may or may not constitute "blowing it out my azz". I would estimate that 90% of the posts on this thread would qualify as such, so why call out just a few?

 

[the blob]

I also agree there are books that are way over guide. Books mentioned, low grade copies are prime examples. Guide for some low grade FF's as an example are 10-20 dollars each in good, and these are 5 dollar books at best at the conventions I do.

 

------------------

 

OPG is not a convention/flea market guide. It is supposed to be a "comic shop" price guide, no?

 

While I agree that those type of books do not get full guide, if you look at sales on ebay and include the cost of shipping (which, afterall, shows what people are willing to spend), particularly sales of fixed price listings (which are closer to the retail environment than auctions which are a different game, rely on who is looking that week, etc.), I suspect you will find plenty of sales that get above 50% of OPG.

 

With that said, I have found that beat to heck 40s/early 50s super hero GA does pretty much get close to full guide, perhaps better, often in the auction setting, or at least it did when i was selling a lot of it (true, most of that happened in 2004-2008, before the economy collapsed). (in the mid/late 90s I was buying a lot of this stuff out of $2-$5 boxes at shows and on ebay in the 2000s they were often $15-$30 books) i put up many "beat up reader copies" (no grade given, defects were noted, scans provided, pages often missing) and they would often get Fair or Fair/Good prices when, arguably, CGC probably would have given them .5 - 1.0s.

 

once you get above .5 - 1.5 type books this is less so as guide becomes out of budget for many of these collectors who could afford a $15-20 beater, but not a $65 2.0 copy.

 

And yes, I know, "you can't factor in shipping costs because people buy multiple items and spread out the cost that way"...sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. when my store was pretty active 7-8 years ago and I had 500-700 items in there with 20-40 auctions a week, the bulk of the purchases were still 1 or 2 items. yes, occasionally people bought a stack to get the free shipping I offered on $75 or bigger sales.

[ttfitz]

Any use the OPG had has been replaced by www.comicspriceguide.com

 

1) It's free (upon registration)

2) It doesn't discriminate. It attempts to be comprehensive and list everything..

3) It is online in a database format.

4) It does have a schedule for periodically updating titles (but they are overwhelmed)

5) They do allow users to submit titles and covers that are missing.

6) They seek advice from the "experts" when it comes to obscure items or rarities.

7) They have amassed a huge gallery of scans so you can see the actual books/versions you are trying to price.

 

My only complaint is that they are overwhelmed because the volume of data to maintain is very large and response time on getting things included can take months.

 

DG

 

I was going to mention that site, I wondered what people might think of it. They were one of the sponsors of the Va Comicon I attended a couple weeks ago, and I talked for a while with one of the guys involved (the business card I have says Rick Frogge, but I can't guarantee that's who I talked with). It sounded like they were pretty together, but then again, if it was Rick Frogge, he's listed as Marketing Director or somesuch, which means it's his job to make them sound pretty together.

 

 

[ttfitz]

Yeah, there are huge numbers of lower-grade books from the late SA and later that are just insanely overpriced in Overstreet.

 

Think about what a VG copy of a late 60s Superboy, Lois Lane, or Jimmy Olsen actually will sell for. They guide for $10-$12 dollars. When was the last time any of them sold for more than $3 ? A third of guide is pretty much full retail on those books. I pull them out of dollar boxes because I can't seem to pass up a 12 cent cover price comic in decent shape for a dollar, but I'm not confident that I could sell them for more. I suspect that my wife will be stuck with them when I keel over.

 

As a collector of late 60s Superboy, Lois Lane, and Jimmy Olsen, if you are looking to sell any of those, let me know, I might be interested.

[slym2none]

They aren't as bad as the OSPG, but they aren't great.

 

 

 

-slym

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Any use the OPG had has been replaced by www.comicspriceguide.com

 

1) It's free (upon registration)

2) It doesn't discriminate. It attempts to be comprehensive and list everything..

3) It is online in a database format.

4) It does have a schedule for periodically updating titles (but they are overwhelmed)

5) They do allow users to submit titles and covers that are missing.

6) They seek advice from the "experts" when it comes to obscure items or rarities.

7) They have amassed a huge gallery of scans so you can see the actual books/versions you are trying to price.

 

My only complaint is that they are overwhelmed because the volume of data to maintain is very large and response time on getting things included can take months.

 

DG

 

I was going to mention that site, I wondered what people might think of it. They were one of the sponsors of the Va Comicon I attended a couple weeks ago, and I talked for a while with one of the guys involved (the business card I have says Rick Frogge, but I can't guarantee that's who I talked with). It sounded like they were pretty together, but then again, if it was Rick Frogge, he's listed as Marketing Director or somesuch, which means it's his job to make them sound pretty together.

 

 

I don't understand why someone would go out and buy an OPG knowing how poorly the prices are maintained when you can access the data online for free and get a cover scan in the process so you know what you are pricing. Maintaining a comic database is a HUGE undertaking. OPG at it's best has never attempted to be comprehensive. At least the CPG site does make that attempt.

 

Nothing is more annoying to me than trying to look up a dozen comics I own and discovering none are even in the guide. With OPG, I wade through listing of worthless comics priced cover price while I'm holding something worth $50 that isn't even listed.

 

DG

[NewWorldOrder]

I am not referring to the articles, the ads, nothing else but the price guide itself - how do you feel about it? Pardons for not being clear enough, but not even info that can just be found in the PG section such as 1st appearances and such, just the actual prices of the comics as reported by Bob Overstreet.

 

I think my views are well-known at this point... however, it makes me wonder why so many prices are so off - can the OSPG people not take the time to make their price guide part relevant? Are there too many books to update now, since due to the internet, thousands of comics are being sold (and reported as sold) and they aren't changed in the next guide?

 

I was told once that OSPG doesn't change prices on all books because they don't change from year to year, but that, IMHO, isn't true. They have changed, at least once, and I get proof every time I use the OSPG and sell at 50% or lower than their listed price.

 

It is time for them to look into ALL the comics they cover, and not just the keys and hot-book-of-the-time. Do your job, please. If the PG is too much as it is, drop stuff out of it. But PLEASE, keep up with all the things you DO cover!

 

/ :signrant:

 

 

 

-slym

 

Price Guide Only for me is:

 

1938-1975 = decent job

 

1976-current = clueless and an embarrassment to the hobby

 

However there are hundreds of books from 1938-75 that need to come way down to a realistic current market value. SA DC's such as Hawkman come to mind as well as many Gold Key and Dell titles, especially in low-mid-grade.

 

 

Most copper books in OSPG 9.2 NM- are what CGC 9.6 sell for.

 

So dealers put that price tag on those issues and then wonder why they sit in their box stock for years. Shocking I know.

[dupont2005]

Over time I've come to realize that with the OPG, their position is a bit complicated. While my biggest criticism is that they won't drop all of the clutter... if a book isn't worth at least $10 in 9.2, it shouldn't be in a collectibles guide... they have a rather impossible task before them due to the nature of many comics collectors.

 

Rightly or wrongly Oversteet set it as his duty to try to maintain market stability and long-term collector interest in the hobby. The problem is, the vast majority of even golden and silver-age issues are truly collected by very few individuals in the overall scheme of things.

 

Many comics maintain a value based simply on it being seen as a bargain compared to Overstreet. I might sell an obscure 1940s humor issue at $10 if OPG says it's worth $20, because a buyer will likley feel, what the heck, if it's half-price, even though it's a goofy issue, how can I go wrong? But if OPG reduces the price to actual selling value of $10, it immediately is now worth only $5 because the book will rarely sell unless it is peceived as a "bargain". Reduce it again, etc., etc.

 

Moreover, as a dealer BUYING collections, it is difficult to buy them at too low a percentage below OPG, because the public sees OPG as definitive... especially non-collectors looking to move estates. Thus the OPG actually creates its own market prices, as dealers are often forced to buy at certain fixed percentages and then retail-price accordingly. Up to a point, OPG is a self-fulfilling prophecy. That has eroded somewhat over the years, of course, but is still a powerful force when dealing with would-be sellers.

 

I laugh when people suggest using eBay, especially for raw books. And the number of raw books I purchase vs. slabbed books per year is about 5,000 to 1. eBay has no meaning since there is no standardized grading, no way of confirming real bids vs. shilled ones, no way to know if buyers even received what was advertised, etc. I can't imagine, either, someone selling me 500 silver-age books in a wide range of conditions, waiting while I check them all out for current values on eBay!

 

GPA, which I subscribe to, is essential for large dealers, but extremely limited. It's great for hot trend books, very high grades, and keys.

 

For example, awhile back I bought a complete run of Top-Notch Comics from the '40s. The highest grades were about 6.0, while most were in a range of 1.0 to 4.0, with some restored books and even a few incompletes. Not a single one of these issues in these grades were well-represented in GPA because collectors simply don't get lower-grade books like these slabbed. Many of the later issues were represented on GPA by only 1 or 2 copies, and these were obviously high-grade pedigrees. Needless to say, the odds of there being recent sales of this sort of material on eBay are also remote.

 

So OPG, combined with lots of experience (so many would-be dealers never understand this) is about the only way to determine value, especially comparatively between issues. It at least gives you a starting point not available in other mediums.

 

 

EBay is fine as a guide. Sure, there's no standardized grading. There isn't anywhere else for raw comics either, including what comic shops grade their raw comics as. As far as shilling is concerned, we don't know when shilling is happening at Heritage either, do we? The one thing we do know is that eBay completed listings are actual realized sales, OSPG is just numbers pulled out of the air by people with a vested interest in those numbers.