Those Imbeciles on "Pawn Stars" Last Night

Jaydogrules · December 29, 2013

Don't know if you guys heard of this show its called "Hard Core Pawn Shop" its filmed right hear in my home town Detroit. Wish I was there that day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bgtkGuab0E

Thanks for posting that it was a hoot! As phony as a three dollar bill as well but still fun to watch lol . And at least the random expert guy gave it a more legitimate retail value for what looked like a 4.0 ($12k).

-J.

keldog · December 29, 2013

Don't know if you guys heard of this show its called "Hard Core Pawn Shop" its filmed right hear in my home town Detroit. Wish I was there that day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bgtkGuab0E

DETROIT??? It was Chicago. ROYAL PAWN in Chicago.

OR

Royal Pawn Shop

Royal Jewelers and Loans

428 S. Clark St.

Chicago, IL 60605

I would love to see one of the people on here who comes to Chicago for a convention to school these jokers about books.

That video looked faked since they showed junk books then pulled all these key older books at the end and a collector pops out of no where that the camera was on at that point.

mintcollector · December 29, 2013

A lot of higher end auction houses are still hesitant to hold full blown comic book auctions.

Respectfully disagree. The Southeby's comic book auctions of the later '80s/early '90s did much to legitimize comic collecting among the fine art and Wall Street crowd.

The reason they stopped wasn't the lack of profitability, but rather that Heritage came in with a specific specialty niche in comic books.

Even with their legacy reps in the antiques and real estate fields, Christie's and Southeby's would have a hard time re-entering the field today, given the already-established competition from Metropolis, Heritage and Comiclink.

Now that I had more time to return home before heading back out on another antiques and collectibles excursion, I wanted to expand further on this statement.

The Sotheby's auction you mention was last held in the 1990's. Heritage Auctions did NOT enter the comic book market until 2001 after the advent of CGC. Stating that Sotheby's did not or could not compete with Heritage Auctions is incorrect because there was almost a decade between the time they had their last auction and until Heritage Auctions launched their first comic book auction; let alone became a major player in the industry. Comic Link was still in its infancy at this time and was not a major player either.

Note this link:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-08-15/features/1993227221_1_pez-candy-pez-dispensers-collecting-pez

Listed above is a link to a PEZ auction held by Christie's in 1993. If we were to apply your logic, the reason that PEZ auctions are no longer held by the likes of Christie's is due to increased competition. Competition in the auction business creates markets and can fuel demand. The true reason PEZ auctions are not carried out on a large scale is because the market fizzled. Sure, there are a lot of people who still collect PEZ. I have many, many rare and sought after vintage PEZ dispensers that I love. They were never bought for investment nor will they ever be a valid investment. Unfortunately back in 1993, nostalgia obsessed collectors wanted to believe they were. Most of the dispensers sold in that 1993 auction could not be sold for half of their sale price today! Ironically, after you add in the buyer’s premium (or penalty as it is often called in the antiques business); these items are down more than 70-80% of their original sale price! The same thing happened (albeit on a smaller scale)to Atari 2600 games as well. During the eBay hey-day of 1994-1997; prices on vintage Atari games kept going up in value until 2004...then the bottom fell out. Now games like Crazy Climber, Halloween, and Quadrun sell for less than 30-60% their 2002 highs.

Another reason your argument is not valid is due to how many auction houses deal in coins. Even with increased competition the amount of coin auctions is staggering. Auction houses that do not even routinely deal in coins and related fields (i.e. numismatics) desperately want in on this lucrative field. Competition is NOT a factor; as much as it is in getting consigners to send their coins to them for sale. Actually, I would argue that competition has spurred growth and created new markets. No auction house wants to sell an item were prices do not achieve new highs or fail to achieve prices comparable to other houses operating in the same market.

In conclusion, higher end auction houses have also started to initiate lot minimums. This ensures that the items they deal with sell for over a certain amount and they ascertain profitability on every item. An auction house spends the same amount of time and money to market a $300 item as they do a $2,000 item or a $10,000 item. This is why so called 'investors and speculators' at the bottom end of the pool often lose. No auction house wants to advertise record breaking prices in a market saturated with $100 items. We have eBay for this.

Most auction houses are very cautious of comic books due to what occurred in the 1990's and how their CORE buying audience views these objects. An auction house that deals specifically in higher end antiques and vintage advertising has to think long and hard before entering a market that may affect how their core buyers view their business. Coins are a welcome addition to any auction houses; hence the reason you see so much coins and currency at most auctions (i.e. local, regional, or national). Comic books have yet to be accepted in the same regard and it is hard to say if they ever will be at this point in time.

In other posts I allude to the fact that a lot of collectors view their collecting field with extreme bias and prejudice. This is just one such example. Judging the current comic book speculation we are seeing on only the high end is clouding the overall view of the market as a whole. Look at prices before the year 2003. Now look at prices on high grade comic book keys between the time frame of 2003 to 2013. Massive price increases have occurred. It is not wise to base the comic book market as a whole on increases within the past ten years due to movie speculation, the advent of CGC, and a demographic that has been exposed to collecting and reality television shows on a global scale like nothing ever seen before in the history of the entire trade.

Jaydogrules · December 29, 2013

A lot of higher end auction houses are still hesitant to hold full blown comic book auctions.

Respectfully disagree. The Southeby's comic book auctions of the later '80s/early '90s did much to legitimize comic collecting among the fine art and Wall Street crowd.

The reason they stopped wasn't the lack of profitability, but rather that Heritage came in with a specific specialty niche in comic books.

Even with their legacy reps in the antiques and real estate fields, Christie's and Southeby's would have a hard time re-entering the field today, given the already-established competition from Metropolis, Heritage and Comiclink.

Now that I had more time to return home before heading back out on another antiques and collectibles excursion, I wanted to expand further on this statement.

The Sotheby's auction you mention was last held in the 1990's. Heritage Auctions did NOT enter the comic book market until 2001 after the advent of CGC. Stating that Sotheby's did not or could not compete with Heritage Auctions is incorrect because there was almost a decade between the time they had their last auction and until Heritage Auctions launched their first comic book auction; let alone became a major player in the industry. Comic Link was still in its infancy at this time and was not a major player either.

Note this link:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-08-15/features/1993227221_1_pez-candy-pez-dispensers-collecting-pez

Listed above is a link to a PEZ auction held by Christie's in 1993. If we were to apply your logic, the reason that PEZ auctions are no longer held by the likes of Christie's is due to increased competition. Competition in the auction business creates markets and can fuel demand. The true reason PEZ auctions are not carried out on a large scale is because the market fizzled. Sure, there are a lot of people who still collect PEZ. I have many, many rare and sought after vintage PEZ dispensers that I love. They were never bought for investment nor will they ever be a valid investment. Unfortunately back in 1993, nostalgia obsessed collectors wanted to believe they were. Most of the dispensers sold in that 1993 auction could not be sold for half of their sale price today! Ironically, after you add in the buyers premium (or penalty as it is often called in the antiques business); these items are down more than 70-80% of their original sale price! The same thing happened (albeit on a smaller scale)to Atari 2600 games as well. During the eBay hey-day of 1994-1997; prices on vintage Atari games kept going up in value until 2004...then the bottom fell out. Now games like Crazy Climber, Halloween, and Quadrun sell for less than 30-60% their 2002 highs.

Another reason your argument is not valid is due to how many auction houses deal in coins. Even with increased competition the amount of coin auctions is staggering. Auction houses that do not even routinely deal in coins and related fields (i.e. numismatics) desperately want in on this lucrative field. Competition is NOT a factor; as much as it is in getting consigners to send their coins to them for sale. Actually, I would argue that competition has spurred growth and created new markets. No auction house wants to sell an item were prices do not achieve new highs or fail to achieve prices comparable to other houses operating in the same market.

In conclusion, higher end auction houses have also started to initiate lot minimums. This ensures that the items they deal with sell for over a certain amount and they ascertain profitability on every item. An auction house spends the same amount of time and money to market a $300 item as they do a $2,000 item or a $10,000 item. This is why so called 'investors and speculators' at the bottom end of the pool often lose. No auction house wants to advertise record breaking prices in a market saturated with $100 items. We have eBay for this.

Most auction houses are very cautious of comic books due to what occurred in the 1990's and how their CORE buying audience views these objects. An auction house that deals specifically in higher end antiques and vintage advertising has to think long and hard before entering a market that may affect how their core buyers view their business. Coins are a welcome addition to any auction houses; hence the reason you see so much coins and currency at most auctions (i.e. local, regional, or national). Comic books have yet to be accepted in the same regard and it is hard to say if they ever will be at this point in time.

In other posts I allude to the fact that a lot of collectors view their collecting field with extreme bias and prejudice. This is just one such example. Judging the current comic book speculation we are seeing on only the high end is clouding the overall view of the market as a whole. Look at prices before the year 2003. Now look at prices on high grade comic book keys between the time frame of 2003 to 2013. Massive price increases have occurred. It is not wise to base the comic book market as a whole on increases within the past ten years due to movie speculation, the advent of CGC, and a demographic that has been exposed to collecting and reality television shows on a global scale like nothing ever seen before in the history of the entire trade.

Mint, you are obviously an educated individual, but I am not entirely sure what point you are trying to make with this post. You seem to be alluding to the fact that Christie's and Sotheby's do not hold comic book auctions anymore because they must be of the opinion that the comic book market is weak, and if it were not weak, they would hold such auctions, and that would therefore prove that the comic book market is not weak. This kind of apparently circular logic rarely withstands close scrutiny.

Was there a drop in interest in comic book collecting in the nineties? Yup. And so what? There has been at least one correction in every hobby/investment class since the dawn of investing. How are those gold and silver eagles doin for ya lately? Sotheby's and Christie's have their specialties that cater to their rather narrow buyer pool and what those people are interested in. That's how those auction houses make their money, and good for them. What do Sotheby's and Christie's have to do with comic book collecting? Nothing, is what. And guess what- I'm pretty sure nobody cares.

So then you seem to go on to compare comic book investing to PEZ dispenser and old, out dated, obsolete video game cartridge collecting. Really? Why not also throw in Beanie Babies, Cabbage Patch Kids and Pokémon cards while you're at it? You know...other fads that lasted about a year or two. Apples and oranges my friend.

Comic book collecting has been around nearly a hundred years. Has influenced and inspired nearly every facet of not only pop culture but mainstream culture. Comic books are why the movies exist, not vice versa. Do the movies have a synergy with the books? Yes, of course they do. And as you pointed out with the coin collecting hobby, the movies have indeed expanded the market for comic books---the original source material for the movies, TV, Halloween costumes, lunch boxes, video games, posters, songs, original art, etc. etc. Been to a comic convention recently?

You are also right about increases in values in comics coinciding with CGC--- the professional grading company that also happens to grade coins, paper money, etc. Putting comic books into a secure slab with an impartial grade - like coins, etc. - was a stroke of genius and indeed allowed new collectors to enter the market with a certain sense of security that what they are buying isn't some random dude's opinion (even if it still technically is, don't get me started on that though). But at least the market has accepted CGC and it changed and expanded our hobby in a positive way. But you could say the same thing about ebay. and the Overstreet guide 25 years before that. New things always have the potential to come along, alter, expand and improve a hobby. Is that a bad thing? No way Jose. But by no means does that mean that comic books "only" increase in value when these things came along. Quite the opposite. What actually happened is that brilliant opportunists saw THAT comic books go up in value, have a huge collector base, and they took it from there. And again when it is right, a synergy is created where those opportunists get rich, and their contribution to the hobby improves the investment aspects of the hobby as well.

Lastly, your statement about "only" high end old school keys increasing in value at the top end is just plain wrong. Saga anyone? Walking Dead? Modern Spiderman variants? Harley Quinn? Deadpool? And again, yes you are right. not every piece of tripe that is printed sky rockets in value. Just as not every slug that has come off a mint is worth more than its face value. "Keys" exist in every hobby, and those are the ones that are the best bet from a purely speculative investment stand point. But there are also plenty of people who just collect comics for the joy of reading, because they love the characters, the art work. Some people collect comics for the same reason some people collect coins...for the pride of owning a piece of history and being able to hold it in your hands, where the story of the actual book itself is just as fascinating as the one of the pages within. That's why I and I believe a lot of people who love and have a passion for comic book collecting collect comics. It is something different than that of those who collect coins and certain other antiquities. And guess what...that's okay.

End rantrant

-J.

Gatsby77 · December 29, 2013

Good post above, Mint.

However, note that I did not state a timeframe between Southeby's last comic auction and Heritage's start. Because it doesn't matter.

What matters (to me, at least) is refuting your statement as to why that auction house does not deal in comic book auctions _today_. And it is _not_ because the comic market is unhealthy, in a speculative bubble, or still seen as too plebian by their core client base.

1) The high-end back issue market for comics is incredibly healthy, and has been for the last decade. I'm not talking about $100 or $200 comic books here, but books that sell in the $5,000-$300,000 (or more) range.

You cite the price gains seen from 2003-2013 as indicative of a bubble, but the core superhero GA and SA blue chips also saw similar gains from 1993-2003, 1983-1993 and 1973-1983.

2) Do you _really_ believe that Southeby's or Christie's would not have accepted the Nicolas Cage, Billy Wright, or Doug Schmell collections on consignment just because they are pop art? Each of those collections were worth millions of dollars, and were equivalent to the White Mountain collection sold by Southeby's in the 90s.

Further, _none_ of those collections were affected by the comic book bubble of the 1990s, which affected only modern comics, not vintage material. Ex. why would Southeby's, the auction house that brokered the record $40k AF 15 sale in the early 90s, not have gladly brokered the $1.1 million AF 15 sale of a few year's back?

No--these collections went instead to the niche auction houses who had better established their niche and therefore had deeper established client lists.

3) Further, even if you think that typical millionaire collector see comics as inferior relative to other collecting niches (which I don't necessarily dispute), pop art itself is a niche--there is no reason that an auction house that deals in pop art such as Warhols and Rothkos wouldn't also deal in such top representative comics as early Actions or Captain Americas. Yes--the values of the top comic books may be only 10-15% those of the top modern art pieces, but the % gains over the last 25 years for the distinct groups have been similar. So the appeal of blue chip comic book examples to ultra-wealthy investors looking to diversify beyond mere stock or real estate holdings into collectibles is the same (note such well-known, albeit young, celebrity collectors as Nicolas Cage, Leonardo DiCaprio, Eminem and KKR scion Eric Roberts).

4) Even if you think that comic books themselves wouldn't appeal to the same client base of a typical auction house, original art certainly would--particularly given the gains seen in museum-quality pieces by such modern artists as Bolland, McFarlane, and Miller over the last decade, let alone key pieces by the classic Silver Age artists like Ditko and Kirby or comic strip art like that of Schultz.

To state that high-end auction houses won't touch high-end comic book original art (with price points in the $10k+ range) because the comic book bubble of the 90s is beyond ludicrous--it's because niche auction houses are already active in that market.

mintcollector · December 29, 2013

Good post above, Mint.

However, note that I did not state a timeframe between Southeby's last comic auction and Heritage's start. Because it doesn't matter.

What matters (to me, at least) is refuting your statement as to why that auction house does not deal in comic book auctions _today_. And it is _not_ because the comic market is unhealthy, in a speculative bubble, or still seen as too plebian by their core client base.

1) The high-end back issue market for comics is incredibly healthy, and has been for the last decade. I'm not talking about $100 or $200 comic books here, but books that sell in the $5,000-$300,000 (or more) range.

You cite the price gains seen from 2003-2013 as indicative of a bubble, but the core superhero GA and SA blue chips also saw similar gains from 1993-2003, 1983-1993 and 1973-1983.

2) Do you _really_ believe that Southeby's or Christie's would not have accepted the Nicolas Cage, Billy Wright, or Doug Schmell collections on consignment just because they are pop art? Each of those collections were worth millions of dollars, and were equivalent to the White Mountain collection sold by Southeby's in the 90s.

Further, _none_ of those collections were affected by the comic book bubble of the 1990s, which affected only modern comics, not vintage material. Ex. why would Southeby's, the auction house that brokered the record $40k AF 15 sale in the early 90s, not have gladly brokered the $1.1 million AF 15 sale of a few year's back?

No--these collections went instead to the niche auction houses who had better established their niche and therefore had deeper established client lists.

3) Further, even if you think that typical millionaire collector see comics as inferior relative to other collecting niches (which I don't necessarily dispute), pop art itself is a niche--there is no reason that an auction house that deals in pop art such as Warhols and Rothkos wouldn't also deal in such top representative comics as early Actions or Captain Americas. Yes--the values of the top comic books may be only 10-15% those of the top modern art pieces, but the % gains over the last 25 years for the distinct groups have been similar. So the appeal of blue chip comic book examples to ultra-wealthy investors looking to diversify beyond mere stock or real estate holdings into collectibles is the same (note such well-known, albeit young, celebrity collectors as Nicolas Cage, Leonardo DiCaprio, Eminem and KKR scion Eric Roberts).

4) Even if you think that comic books themselves wouldn't appeal to the same client base of a typical auction house, original art certainly would--particularly given the gains seen in museum-quality pieces by such modern artists as Bolland, McFarlane, and Miller over the last decade, let alone key pieces by the classic Silver Age artists like Ditko and Kirby or comic strip art like that of Schultz.

To state that high-end auction houses won't touch high-end comic book original art (with price points in the $10k+ range) because the comic book bubble of the 90s is beyond ludicrous--it's because niche auction houses are already active in that market.

Pardon how this was typed out as I just arrived home and this was still done on an iPad Mini. Thus the reason for the bold statements; quoting on an iPad Mini is somewhat tedious. Yes, it is long.

This is your original post:

"Respectfully disagree. The Southeby's comic book auctions of the later '80s/early '90s did much to legitimize comic collecting among the fine art and Wall Street crowd.

The reason they stopped wasn't the lack of profitability, but rather that Heritage came in with a specific specialty niche in comic books.

Even with their legacy reps in the antiques and real estate fields, Christie's and Southeby's would have a hard time re-entering the field today, given the already-established competition from Metropolis, Heritage and Comiclink."

Please kindly note your original post below.

In your response you start off by stating the following:

However, note that I did not state a timeframe between Southeby's last comic auction and Heritage's start. Because it doesn't matter.

It does matter. The reason they stopped had nothing to do with Heritage Auctions. Their entry to the market was a full seven years away at best. In that time I assure you that there were other high grade auctions they would have gladly auctioned off.

#2. Please kindly note my original statement below:

It takes one phone call to ask a high end auctioneer what they think of the market. Please ask. If they have a consignment like a high end pedigree collection I can assure you they will take it. I can also assure you it is not their core audience, nor will it ever be accepted at present time.

Of course any auction house will take a high grade collection worth millions. Ironically, these auctions are NOT what defines the market; it is the smaller scale sales. How many people on this forum are routinely buying $100,000 + comic books? I won't touch anything over two thousand; regardless and I own fine art, antiques and other collectibles worth a whole lot more. It is incorrect to judge the market from the top 1% of any collecting category.

The point I was making; and to go back to your original statement below:

Even with their legacy reps in the antiques and real estate fields, Christie's and Southeby's would have a hard time re-entering the field today, given the already-established competition from Metropolis, Heritage and Comiclink

This is incorrect and I stand by this because Metropolis, Comic Link, and sites like Comic Connect are specialty auction sites devoted to comic books and comic art. it would be like asking why Swann Auction Galleries in New York does not cater to glass collectors (note: Swann Galleries specializes in posters and other art and ephemera only).

I am saying that most major antique and higher end non-specialty auction houses do NOT always place comic books on par with other higher end collectibles at present time. The same can be said for 1980's toys as well. Heritage Auctions has yet to hold signature toy auctions for more modern toys like 1980's Transformers, G.I. Joe, and Star Wars. They have dealt with rare or uncommon pieces from these lines in the past, but have yet to have a major signature auction devoted to 1980 toy lines and later. ironically, Morphy Auctions (full disclosure: one of my favorite auction houses) has had a few vintage toy auctions. Most notably their Star Wars toy auction from back around 2010 or so.

Furthermore, any auction house will take almost any consignment (within reason and specialty if applicable) that they think will do one of two things:

Number one: generate cash flow and turn a profit and

Number two: provide record breaking sales in which they can use to turn around and pick up other high quality consignments which in turn; generates more interest and so on and so on.

That being said, ask almost any auctioneer off the radar what they think of the current frenzy of the comic book market and they will tell you that it is a risky venture for those buying to hold for the long term. Most still consider them highly speculative compared to other collectibles. They go after the money; while maintaining their core business (i.e. base). The job of the auctioneer is to represent the seller; not always in the best interest of the buyer. As I have jokingly alluded to in past posts; there is 'no troubled collectible asset relief plan' for those who speculate and lose in these markets...nor should there be.

Jaydogrules · December 30, 2013

Good post above, Mint.

However, note that I did not state a timeframe between Southeby's last comic auction and Heritage's start. Because it doesn't matter.

What matters (to me, at least) is refuting your statement as to why that auction house does not deal in comic book auctions _today_. And it is _not_ because the comic market is unhealthy, in a speculative bubble, or still seen as too plebian by their core client base.

1) The high-end back issue market for comics is incredibly healthy, and has been for the last decade. I'm not talking about $100 or $200 comic books here, but books that sell in the $5,000-$300,000 (or more) range.

You cite the price gains seen from 2003-2013 as indicative of a bubble, but the core superhero GA and SA blue chips also saw similar gains from 1993-2003, 1983-1993 and 1973-1983.

2) Do you _really_ believe that Southeby's or Christie's would not have accepted the Nicolas Cage, Billy Wright, or Doug Schmell collections on consignment just because they are pop art? Each of those collections were worth millions of dollars, and were equivalent to the White Mountain collection sold by Southeby's in the 90s.

Further, _none_ of those collections were affected by the comic book bubble of the 1990s, which affected only modern comics, not vintage material. Ex. why would Southeby's, the auction house that brokered the record $40k AF 15 sale in the early 90s, not have gladly brokered the $1.1 million AF 15 sale of a few year's back?

No--these collections went instead to the niche auction houses who had better established their niche and therefore had deeper established client lists.

3) Further, even if you think that typical millionaire collector see comics as inferior relative to other collecting niches (which I don't necessarily dispute), pop art itself is a niche--there is no reason that an auction house that deals in pop art such as Warhols and Rothkos wouldn't also deal in such top representative comics as early Actions or Captain Americas. Yes--the values of the top comic books may be only 10-15% those of the top modern art pieces, but the % gains over the last 25 years for the distinct groups have been similar. So the appeal of blue chip comic book examples to ultra-wealthy investors looking to diversify beyond mere stock or real estate holdings into collectibles is the same (note such well-known, albeit young, celebrity collectors as Nicolas Cage, Leonardo DiCaprio, Eminem and KKR scion Eric Roberts).

4) Even if you think that comic books themselves wouldn't appeal to the same client base of a typical auction house, original art certainly would--particularly given the gains seen in museum-quality pieces by such modern artists as Bolland, McFarlane, and Miller over the last decade, let alone key pieces by the classic Silver Age artists like Ditko and Kirby or comic strip art like that of Schultz.

To state that high-end auction houses won't touch high-end comic book original art (with price points in the $10k+ range) because the comic book bubble of the 90s is beyond ludicrous--it's because niche auction houses are already active in that market.

Pardon how this was typed out as I just arrived home and this was still done on an iPad Mini. Thus the reason for the bold statements; quoting on an iPad Mini is somewhat tedious. Yes, it is long.

This is your original post:

"Respectfully disagree. The Southeby's comic book auctions of the later '80s/early '90s did much to legitimize comic collecting among the fine art and Wall Street crowd.

The reason they stopped wasn't the lack of profitability, but rather that Heritage came in with a specific specialty niche in comic books.

Even with their legacy reps in the antiques and real estate fields, Christie's and Southeby's would have a hard time re-entering the field today, given the already-established competition from Metropolis, Heritage and Comiclink."

Please kindly note your original post below.

In your response you start off by stating the following:

However, note that I did not state a timeframe between Southeby's last comic auction and Heritage's start. Because it doesn't matter.

It does matter. The reason they stopped had nothing to do with Heritage Auctions. Their entry to the market was a full seven years away at best. In that time I assure you that there were other high grade auctions they would have gladly auctioned off.

#2. Please kindly note my original statement below:

It takes one phone call to ask a high end auctioneer what they think of the market. Please ask. If they have a consignment like a high end pedigree collection I can assure you they will take it. I can also assure you it is not their core audience, nor will it ever be accepted at present time.

Of course any auction house will take a high grade collection worth millions. Ironically, these auctions are NOT what defines the market; it is the smaller scale sales. How many people on this forum are routinely buying $100,000 + comic books? I won't touch anything over two thousand; regardless and I own fine art, antiques and other collectibles worth a whole lot more. It is incorrect to judge the market from the top 1% of any collecting category.

The point I was making; and to go back to your original statement below:

Even with their legacy reps in the antiques and real estate fields, Christie's and Southeby's would have a hard time re-entering the field today, given the already-established competition from Metropolis, Heritage and Comiclink

This is incorrect and I stand by this because Metropolis, Comic Link, and sites like Comic Connect are specialty auction sites devoted to comic books and comic art. it would be like asking why Swann Auction Galleries in New York does not cater to glass collectors (note: Swann Galleries specializes in posters and other art and ephemera only).

I am saying that most major antique and higher end non-specialty auction houses do NOT always place comic books on par with other higher end collectibles at present time. The same can be said for 1980's toys as well. Heritage Auctions has yet to hold signature toy auctions for more modern toys like 1980's Transformers, G.I. Joe, and Star Wars. They have dealt with rare or uncommon pieces from these lines in the past, but have yet to have a major signature auction devoted to 1980 toy lines and later. ironically, Morphy Auctions (full disclosure: one of my favorite auction houses) has had a few vintage toy auctions. Most notably their Star Wars toy auction from back around 2010 or so.

Furthermore, any auction house will take almost any consignment (within reason and specialty if applicable) that they think will do one of two things:

Number one: generate cash flow and turn a profit and

Number two: provide record breaking sales in which they can use to turn around and pick up other high quality consignments which in turn; generates more interest and so on and so on.

That being said, ask almost any auctioneer off the radar what they think of the current frenzy of the comic book market and they will tell you that it is a risky venture for those buying to hold for the long term. Most still consider them highly speculative compared to other collectibles. They go after the money; while maintaining their core business (i.e. base). The job of the auctioneer is to represent the seller; not always in the best interest of the buyer. As I have jokingly alluded to in past posts; there is 'no troubled collectible asset relief plan' for those who speculate and lose in these markets...nor should there be.

I noticed you glossed over my response and instead focused on the more flawed points of Gatsby77's response. That's fine, but it does again highlight the limitations of your point, which still bafflingly seems to be that because snooty and crusty old rich people who have so much money to throw around in all manner of investments do not put comic books in the same class as say an antique trunk from the 13th century, that therefore the hobby lacks the same perceived legitimacy as other non traditional investments. All due respect but that is pure bunk.

Further, simply because apparently you, Christie's and sotheyby have not participated in this supposed comic book "frenzy" does not mean that the increase in values of comics is illegitimate and unsustainable. You want a frenzy? Look at the stock market this year. Or gold last year. Or real estate last decade.

Those are frenzies. And they are all due or for or have under gone their requisite "corrections". And they are also all still around and being invested in today.

So what exactly is your point mint? I must be slow of wit today because I am still not really getting it. Or why anyone would be trying to make it on a comic book enthusiast site in the first place.

-J.

mintcollector · December 30, 2013

I noticed you glossed over my response and instead focused on the more flawed points of Gatsby77's response. That's fine, but it does again highlight the limitations of your point, which still bafflingly seems to be that because snooty and crusty old rich people who have so much money to throw around in all manner of investments do not put comic books in the same class as say an antique trunk from the 13th century, that therefore the hobby lacks the same perceived legitimacy as other non traditional investments. All due respect but that is pure bunk.

And that is not what I am saying at all. My view is actually from the 'other side' not the buyers. Please read over my points again.

Further, simply because apparently you, Christie's and sotheyby have not participated in this supposed comic book "frenzy" does not mean that the increase in values of comics is illegitimate and unsustainable. You want a frenzy? Look at the stock market this year. Or gold last year. Or real estate last decade.

Those are frenzies. And they are all due or for or have under gone their requisite "corrections". And they are also all still around and being invested in today.

Are you seriously comparing the so called legitimacy of any 'alternate asset class' (i.e. collectibles, antiques, etc.) with the stock market? The stock market has returned gains for decades on average. Sure the market will always contract and expand, but that is the nature of the financial markets in general. This is my cup of tea; per se.

So what exactly is your point mint? I must be slow of wit today because I am still not really getting it. Or why anyone would be trying to make it on a comic book enthusiast site in the first place.

I am involved in the market just like you. I risk what I can handle loosing which means I own very few books over $2,000 each. I do not think the market is comparable to other further developed collecting fields. Does that mean I cannot be here enjoying the hobby just like you? I wasn't aware I had to be a serious comic book speculator to join these forums.

-J.

oakman29 · December 30, 2013

Spidey RULES! :headbang:

Jaydogrules · December 30, 2013

I noticed you glossed over my response and instead focused on the more flawed points of Gatsby77's response. That's fine, but it does again highlight the limitations of your point, which still bafflingly seems to be that because snooty and crusty old rich people who have so much money to throw around in all manner of investments do not put comic books in the same class as say an antique trunk from the 13th century, that therefore the hobby lacks the same perceived legitimacy as other non traditional investments. All due respect but that is pure bunk.

And that is not what I am saying at all. My view is actually from the 'other side' not the buyers. Please read over my points again.

Further, simply because apparently you, Christie's and sotheyby have not participated in this supposed comic book "frenzy" does not mean that the increase in values of comics is illegitimate and unsustainable. You want a frenzy? Look at the stock market this year. Or gold last year. Or real estate last decade.

Those are frenzies. And they are all due or for or have under gone their requisite "corrections". And they are also all still around and being invested in today.

Are you seriously comparing the so called legitimacy of any 'alternate asset class' (i.e. collectibles, antiques, etc.) with the stock market? The stock market has returned gains for decades on average. Sure the market will always contract and expand, but that is the nature of the financial markets in general. This is my cup of tea; per se.

So what exactly is your point mint? I must be slow of wit today because I am still not really getting it. Or why anyone would be trying to make it on a comic book enthusiast site in the first place.

I am involved in the market just like you. I risk what I can handle loosing which means I own very few books over $2,000 each. I do not think the market is comparable to other further developed collecting fields. Does that mean I cannot be here enjoying the hobby just like you? I wasn't aware I had to be a serious comic book speculator to join these forums.

-J.

Mint,

Of course anyone is welcome to participate on the boards. As for me, I am not a "speculator", and I don't buy books with fear in my heart wondering if it will be worth less tomorrow what I paid for it today. I couldn't bear to part with say, my AF15 6.0, even if it dropped in "value" all the way down to $500. Especially then. If anyting, I would go out and buy every copy of AF 15 I could get my hands on. But the fact that that will most definitely never happen and it will likely just get even more expensive is only icing on the cake. Why? Because I love owning the first appearance of Spider-man. I just love that. There will always be more than enough other people who always do as well. And I think it has a coolness factor that out weighs old coins, old tables and couches, etc. But I wouldn't go on a coin collector site and say that lol .

But, at least as far as you seem to view comic books as a speculative investment, then yes they are no different than the stock market, or any other speculative investment. An investment is an investment is an investment. Unless you are talking low yield government bonds, bank CD's, or annuities which all pay next to nothing, I would certainly put comics in the same category, right along with real estate, fine art, antiques, rare coins, and the like. One is not "better" or "safer" than the other. None are a sure bet or recession proof. They have all had their booms and busts, and still people keep on buying them. So yes, they are the same.

-J.

mintcollector · December 30, 2013

I noticed you glossed over my response and instead focused on the more flawed points of Gatsby77's response. That's fine, but it does again highlight the limitations of your point, which still bafflingly seems to be that because snooty and crusty old rich people who have so much money to throw around in all manner of investments do not put comic books in the same class as say an antique trunk from the 13th century, that therefore the hobby lacks the same perceived legitimacy as other non traditional investments. All due respect but that is pure bunk.

And that is not what I am saying at all. My view is actually from the 'other side' not the buyers. Please read over my points again.

Further, simply because apparently you, Christie's and sotheyby have not participated in this supposed comic book "frenzy" does not mean that the increase in values of comics is illegitimate and unsustainable. You want a frenzy? Look at the stock market this year. Or gold last year. Or real estate last decade.

Those are frenzies. And they are all due or for or have under gone their requisite "corrections". And they are also all still around and being invested in today.

Are you seriously comparing the so called legitimacy of any 'alternate asset class' (i.e. collectibles, antiques, etc.) with the stock market? The stock market has returned gains for decades on average. Sure the market will always contract and expand, but that is the nature of the financial markets in general. This is my cup of tea; per se.

So what exactly is your point mint? I must be slow of wit today because I am still not really getting it. Or why anyone would be trying to make it on a comic book enthusiast site in the first place.

I am involved in the market just like you. I risk what I can handle loosing which means I own very few books over $2,000 each. I do not think the market is comparable to other further developed collecting fields. Does that mean I cannot be here enjoying the hobby just like you? I wasn't aware I had to be a serious comic book speculator to join these forums.

-J.

Mint,

Of course anyone is welcome to participate on the boards. As for me, I am not a "speculator", and I don't buy books with fear in my heart wondering if it will be worth less tomorrow what I paid for it today. I couldn't bear to part with say, my AF15 6.0, even if it dropped in "value" all the way down to $500. Especially then. If anyting, I would go out and buy every copy of AF 15 I could get my hands on. But the fact that that will most definitely never happen and it will likely just get even more expensive is only icing on the cake. Why? Because I love owning the first appearance of Spider-man. I just love that. And I think it has a coolness factor that out weighs old coins, old tables and couches, etc. But I wouldn't go on a coin collector site and say that lol .

But, at least as far as you seem to view comic books as a speculative investment, then yes they are no different than the stock market, or any other speculative investment. An investment is an investment is an investment. Unless you are talking low yield government bonds, bank CD's, or annuities which all pay next to nothing, I would certainly put comics in the same category, right along with real estate, fine art, antiques, rare coins, and the like. One is not "better" or "safer" than the other. None are a sure bet or recession proof. They have all had their booms and busts, and still people keep on buying them. So yes, they are the same.

-J.

It is very risky to compare 'alternate' asset classes (if one can even call certain items that fall into these categories 'assets'). The basic reasoning most Generation X'ers have a low net worth is because most cannot tell the difference between an asset and a liability. A comic book is NOT an income producing asset. In fact; after you consider the costs of insurance, storage, and related transaction costs; I would make a case that most are close to being liabilities. This holds true for most collectibles and even gold. When was the last time you received an income stream from your comic book collection without selling it? This can apply to just about any other collectible as well.

The reason why speculating in these various 'alternate assets' is so dangerous at the present point in time is due to several key factors.

Number one: Right now the return on relatively safe and stable investments (i.e. CD's, bonds, and the like) is extremely low. This has caused a new wave of so called investors to seek 'alternative investments.'

Number two: The current wave of super-hero movies along with the media has made comic books seem like the perfect investment. One thing that few people consider is that we are not just talking about people buying one copy of say Walking Dead #1 or AF #15. There are 'investors' hungry for quick money that are buying multiple high grade copies of books like ASM 129 and Hulk 181 in high grade and trying to 'flip' these immediately for a profit.

Number three: Unlike the mid 1990's when speculation started to run rampant in certain collecting categories thanks to eBay (which at the time boasted close to 30,000+ collecting categories before its bubble burst); we now have a much more developed e-commerce platform that centers around collectible speculation. Forums, multiple internet auction sites, and the ability to buy and sell on a multitude of websites and forums has been greatly enhanced. Thanks to the internet the concept of 'economies of scale' has now been perfected on a global scale. This is why speculators involved in Lego sets and modern toys will most likely lose. The minute an item like a Lego set sells from any store shelf at any time a computer send a signal directly back to Lego which tells them to produce another one. Yes, I am simplifying the science behind this but recently I was reading a great article that stated Lego produced and sold well over twenty million units of one single type of Lego Star wars set in the first six months of its production run! What are the odds this thing is ever going to be worth money down the road?

Number four: Since the mid 1990's speculation in the antiques and collectibles market has grown. Never before has there been such an increase in the amount of interest and the amount of sellers. Look at this forum alone. How many collectors are not dealing on the side as well to fund their hobbies? Thanks to the internet anyone can buy and sell. Knowledge is now secondary. You and someone with no knowledge as to the value of a Walking Dead #1 in CGC 9.8 can list the comic on eBay with a starting price of $0.99 and theoretically the seller with no knowledge of the item can get more for it than you can. Note the uptick in reality based collecting shows that place unrealistic values on the items they serve. Antiques Roadshow is now a worldwide phenomenon and the 'Pawn Stars' truly are stars.

Number five: The baby-boomer generation is already starting to retire. Where do you think their comic book collections and other stuff will eventually end up? A better question would be who is going to be there to buy it? Do you really think the market can continue to absorb all these collections on an ongoing basis? I do not. Cannibalization of the comic book collecting market has already started. It destroyed other collecting fields. Dealers and other collectors who bid up the price of books they already own are helping keep it stable. The Overstreet Price Guide serves as a price floor to ensure the whole frenzy doesn't collapse. What happens if this guide is no longer produced?

Just some points to consider. In order to view this objectively one must look at the trade through the eyes of an outsider and not someone obsessed with nostalgia and or dollar signs. There are many other collecting fields that have posted better returns than comic books over the years. As a cross collector I fancy a wide range of antiques and collectibles. I too love comic books. At the same time even I know that Superman cannot save the market from a much need correction.

By the way, I am NOT suggesting that the market is going to crash within the next few years. I am talking about a long lasting correction that may not come until ten to fifteen years from now. My point is simply that the run up of prices like we have seen since 2003 cannot continue; nor should they. Common sense and basic business sense should prevail.

Kind Regards,

'mint'

Jaydogrules · December 30, 2013

Mint,

I agree that there are probably too many people who are in the hobby "for the money", but that is a sub set of the market that it isn't going to go away. Again, market speculators exist in every single speculative investment class that you can name, most notoriously in stocks and real estate, two staples of almost every rich guy's investment portfolio. I am a Gen X'er and I am not suggesting that a person should sink all of their savings into a sweet comic book collection at the altar of common sense. But if someone wanted to do that, into a nice key silver age collection for example, it would be very unlikely that they would ever lose all of their money. They may lose 10-20% if they sold too soon or in a soft market. But, unlike Worldcom stock, their investment would not likely drop to pennies over night after a scandal.

Comic Books do not need movies to continue going up in value. If anything, it is the other way around. If they stopped making the movies tomorrow, Spider-man, Thor, Iron Man would still be known and with fans the world over, and people would still buy their books. Their first appearances will always be worth something to somebody. No, comic books do not yield monetary "dividends". But neither do the vast majority of stocks. And one crappy tenant can kill your cash flow on an rental property for an entire year. A person should know what they're getting into and risking when they make any speculative investment. Comic books are no different in that regard. But they ARE different in that the "dividend" that they do deliver is great story telling and art work (at least the good ones) that stay with you, make you think, and make you care about the characters. To me, that is priceless.

-J.

ComicConnoisseur · December 30, 2013

Mint,

I agree that there are probably too many people who are in the hobby "for the money", but that is a sub set of the market that it isn't going to go away. Again, market speculators exist in every single speculative investment class that you can name, most notoriously in stocks and real estate, two staples of almost every rich guy's investment portfolio. I am a Gen X'er and I am not suggesting that a person should sink all of their savings into a sweet comic book collection at the altar of common sense. But if someone wanted to do that, into a nice key silver age collection for example, it would be very unlikely that they would ever lose all of their money. They may lose 10-20% if they sold too soon or in a soft market. But, unlike Worldcom stock, their investment would not likely drop to pennies over night after a scandal.

Comic Books do not need movies to continue going up in value. If anything, it is the other way around. If they stopped making the movies tomorrow, Spider-man, Thor, Iron Man would still be known and with fans the world over, and people would still buy their books. Their first appearances will always be worth something to somebody. No, comic books do not yield monetary "dividends". But neither do the vast majority of stocks. And one crappy tenant can kill your cash flow on an rental property for an entire year. A person should know what they're getting into and risking when they make any speculative investment. Comic books are no different in that regard. But they ARE different in that the "dividend" that they do deliver is great story telling and art work (at least the good ones) that stay with you, make you think, and make you care about the characters. To me, that is priceless.

-J.

I will say the Marvel Silver Age keys are maybe one of the top things to buy in all of the collectibles fields.

With that here is

an interesting article here about Speculating vs. Investing.

Why are you speculating instead of investing?

rjrjr · December 30, 2013

I noticed you glossed over my response and instead focused on the more flawed points of Gatsby77's response. That's fine, but it does again highlight the limitations of your point, which still bafflingly seems to be that because snooty and crusty old rich people who have so much money to throw around in all manner of investments do not put comic books in the same class as say an antique trunk from the 13th century, that therefore the hobby lacks the same perceived legitimacy as other non traditional investments. All due respect but that is pure bunk.

And that is not what I am saying at all. My view is actually from the 'other side' not the buyers. Please read over my points again.

Further, simply because apparently you, Christie's and sotheyby have not participated in this supposed comic book "frenzy" does not mean that the increase in values of comics is illegitimate and unsustainable. You want a frenzy? Look at the stock market this year. Or gold last year. Or real estate last decade.

Those are frenzies. And they are all due or for or have under gone their requisite "corrections". And they are also all still around and being invested in today.

Are you seriously comparing the so called legitimacy of any 'alternate asset class' (i.e. collectibles, antiques, etc.) with the stock market? The stock market has returned gains for decades on average. Sure the market will always contract and expand, but that is the nature of the financial markets in general. This is my cup of tea; per se.

So what exactly is your point mint? I must be slow of wit today because I am still not really getting it. Or why anyone would be trying to make it on a comic book enthusiast site in the first place.

I am involved in the market just like you. I risk what I can handle loosing which means I own very few books over $2,000 each. I do not think the market is comparable to other further developed collecting fields. Does that mean I cannot be here enjoying the hobby just like you? I wasn't aware I had to be a serious comic book speculator to join these forums.

-J.

Mint,

Of course anyone is welcome to participate on the boards. As for me, I am not a "speculator", and I don't buy books with fear in my heart wondering if it will be worth less tomorrow what I paid for it today. I couldn't bear to part with say, my AF15 6.0, even if it dropped in "value" all the way down to $500. Especially then. If anyting, I would go out and buy every copy of AF 15 I could get my hands on. But the fact that that will most definitely never happen and it will likely just get even more expensive is only icing on the cake. Why? Because I love owning the first appearance of Spider-man. I just love that. There will always be more than enough other people who always do as well. And I think it has a coolness factor that out weighs old coins, old tables and couches, etc. But I wouldn't go on a coin collector site and say that .

But, at least as far as you seem to view comic books as a speculative investment, then yes they are no different than the stock market, or any other speculative investment. An investment is an investment is an investment. Unless you are talking low yield government bonds, bank CD's, or annuities which all pay next to nothing, I would certainly put comics in the same category, right along with real estate, fine art, antiques, rare coins, and the like. One is not "better" or "safer" than the other. None are a sure bet or recession proof. They have all had their booms and busts, and still people keep on buying them. So yes, they are the same.

-J.

Are you seriously equating investing in comic books, a collectible, to investing in the stock market? On the surface, yes, you are putting money into something, but the difference in that something is huge. Sorry, I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with you on this one.

It seems the longer the comic market "bull run" lasts, the more and more I hear people make these kinds of statements and talk about "safe" investments like AF15, a comic book.

Here is an article that I think is interesting (and relevant) to this discussion:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324662404578330651775508058

Jaydogrules · December 30, 2013

Yes I am comparing "investing" in comic books to "investing" in the stock market. For the reasons I have already stated. And possibly even SUPERIOR to the stock market in some regards for the reasons I have already stated. As for me I would rather look at my AF 15 than a statement from a brokerage account any day of the week.

-J.

Gatsby77 · December 30, 2013

Are you seriously equating investing in comic books, a collectible, to investing in the stock market? On the surface, yes, you are putting money into something, but the difference in that something is huge. Sorry, I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with you on this one.

I'd also equate collectibles to stock and/or bond investing.

Investment assets are assets--and can produce healthy returns whether they comprise stocks, gold, real estate, antique cars, comic books, natural gas wells or bulk clothing inventory that is wholesaled to stores like Eileen Fisher. The only difference I see among them is a) risk and b) degrees of liquidity.

To say something isn't an asset because it doesn't produce an income stream a la Rich Dad/Poor Dad or show any realized value until sold is retarded. As has been noted, that excludes even the vast majority of stock holdings that don't pay dividends.

It also excludes all manner of physical inventory that a) can produce predictable income (when sold) and b) because of that, can be used as bank collateral. It's why "inventory" is in the asset column of a balance sheet.

otherworldsj33 · December 30, 2013