Eldon Pedigree 1 1

[Professor K]

On 12/24/2013 at 10:06 AM, Frisco Larson said:

I'll list the books, earliest numbers first. For those interested in doing further research, the address label on this book reads as follows:

 

66 5M7 2Y 69 T

JOHN F HAMANN

ROCK RAPIDS

IOWA

 

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb352/JAMESELSENPETER/true51.jpg

Hi, so that is Eldon Hamann from Iowa, well his dad John. Do you know or remember if the name written on the books with addresses was written as  ELDON or in cursive? 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Professor K

[path4play]

On 2/19/2023 at 3:21 PM, Professor K said:

Very interesting. Are there other examples that have Tuffy written on them?

Edit: Someone did post a pic of a cursive Eldon with his full name written on the back, so the cursive ones are definitely Tuffy's. 

Also the Eldon books whether cursive or block were never "discovered" and bought by someone all in one sale ( as far as we know) but "surfaced" here and there over the years right? Anyone remember the earliest time you saw a Cursive Eldon? Or if they first started showing up in Illinois where Tuffenstamer lived at the time of his passing?

This may have been posted before but this is probably Tuffy. Passed at just 50 years old in 1978, wife 2 years later at 49, and daughter in 1994 at 42, or 43 years old, also in Illinois. 

https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/KWZT-MQ6/eldon-m-tuffentsamer-1928-1978

If there are two Eldons it would be wrong to designate them into one pedigree........for the memory of both men. Sounds sentimental but that's but I think it's only right.

Curiously (perhaps) both men (Eldon M. Tuffentsamer and Eldon John Hamann) served in Korea, and one is in Illinois and the other neighboring Iowa. 

Again, evidence of scripted Eldon being Eldon M. Tuffentsamer and "Tuffy" is pretty concrete.

Evidence for the official Eldon John Hamann story appears limited to several True Comics sent to the household under the father's name. 

I've been digging a half day on this, but I guess without other collectors finding completed coupons or other writings this is where things stand.

 

[Professor K]

On 2/19/2023 at 3:51 PM, path4play said:

Curiously (perhaps) both men (Eldon M. Tuffentsamer and Eldon John Hamann) served in Korea, and one is in Illinois and the other neighboring Iowa. 

Again, evidence of scripted Eldon being Eldon M. Tuffentsamer and "Tuffy" is pretty concrete.

Evidence for the official Eldon John Hamann story appears limited to several True Comics sent to the household under the father's name. 

I've been digging a half day on this, but I guess without other collectors finding completed coupons or other writings this is where things stand.

 

Well.......we know that Tuffy wrote his name in full name in cursive on some books so check that off. Unless someone finds a Cursive Eldon with an Iowa address on it we now almost conclusively that all the cursive copies are Tuffy's.

As I asked FriscoL , but maybe you know, do the books with the Iowa address have the name only written as ELDON? If so I think that's all we need to know. 2 different Eldons are being put in 1 pedigree. If so no matter how inconvenient it may be this should be corrected and seperated from this point on into two pedigrees. The Hamann and the Tuffenstamer pedigrees.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Professor K

[Frisco Larson]

On 2/19/2023 at 2:30 PM, Professor K said:

Hi, so that is Eldon Hamann from Iowa, well his dad John. Do you know or remember if the name written on the books with addresses was written as  ELDON or in cursive? 

This is the best pic I have on hand of one of the half dozen or so Eldon True Comics I purchased but have since sold. If memory serves, he even wrote his full name on one of them. I'll look thru my pics quick to see if I can find a pic of it.

[Frisco Larson]

On 2/19/2023 at 2:30 PM, Professor K said:

Hi, so that is Eldon Hamann from Iowa, well his dad John. Do you know or remember if the name written on the books with addresses was written as  ELDON or in cursive? 

Ok, cool, so I found a pic I took of all of the True copies stacked up, showing his name and yup, I remember correctly, he DID write his last name on one of them, which also has another name, perhaps IDA written on it. I can't believe I kept these pics as I usually don't after I sell something. 

[Professor K]

On 12/24/2013 at 12:52 AM, RedFury said:

Steve,

I've heard mention before that the Eldon copies belonged to Eldon Dedini. But I used to own this Captain Marvel 35 that has "Eldon M. T." written on the front and "Eldon M. Tuffentsamer" written on the back. The cursive --script looks the same as on most other Eldon copies. It's a pretty unique name, and a Google search reveals that an "Eldon M. Tuffentsamer" was born in 1928 and died in 1978. Do you know where the Eldon Dedini story came from? Is it possible there are two Eldons out there who wrote their names on their books? Or is Eldon Tuffentsamer the actual Eldon collection original owner?

 

 

 

 

On 2/19/2023 at 6:40 PM, Frisco Larson said:

Ok, cool, so I found a pic I took of all of the True copies stacked up, showing his name and yup, I remember correctly, he DID write his last name on one of them, which also has another name, perhaps IDA written on it. I can't believe I kept these pics as I usually don't after I sell something. 

Oh boy back to square one. Thanks for taking the time to find those . So Eldon Hamann also wrote his name in cursive, and even his last name on some. As did Eldon Tuffenstamer, at least on that one book Red Fury posted. And from what I can tell the name Eldon looks the same on both, the E's and N's are identical. Oh this is just nuts. No wonder nobody knows for sure. Does anyone know for sure? 

[path4play]

On 2/19/2023 at 7:23 PM, Professor K said:

 

Oh boy back to square one. Thanks for taking the time to find those . So Eldon Hamann also wrote his name in cursive, and even his last name on some. As did Eldon Tuffenstamer, at least on that one book Red Fury posted. And from what I can tell the name Eldon looks the same on both, the E's and N's are identical. Oh this is just nuts. No wonder nobody knows for sure. Does anyone know for sure? 

That's a great pic.  Thanks @Frisco Larson  Back to square one indeed.

I'd say with 100% conviction there are two "cursive" Eldon's now.  Hamann would have been 6 (13 at the date of these True Comics) and "Tuffy" 12 years old when the first books appear for whatever that's worth.

My sense is the majority are Eldon M. Tuffentsamer - but I guess no one can prove anything without an original buyer of either of the two original collections to say for sure.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by path4play

[Frisco Larson]

On 2/19/2023 at 6:23 PM, Professor K said:

 

Oh boy back to square one. Thanks for taking the time to find those . So Eldon Hamann also wrote his name in cursive, and even his last name on some. As did Eldon Tuffenstamer, at least on that one book Red Fury posted. And from what I can tell the name Eldon looks the same on both, the E's and N's are identical. Oh this is just nuts. No wonder nobody knows for sure. Does anyone know for sure? 

Wow, I didn't know that there was another Eldon in the mix! I've been much more focused on Silver Age lately and it looks like I've missed some things! For the record, I don't know anything about this new Eldon. I was SO happy when I found that stack of True Comics from an Iowa dealer!!! Now I had a last name AND an address to bring to the community!!! Best of luck in your search for information on this additional Eldon! 

[Frisco Larson]

On 2/19/2023 at 7:43 PM, path4play said:

That's a great pic.  Thanks @Frisco Larson  Back to square one indeed.

I'd say with 100% conviction there are two "cursive" Eldon's now.  Hamann would have been 6 (13 at the date of these True Comics) and "Tuffy" 12 years old when the first books appear for whatever that's worth.

My sense is the majority are Eldon M. Tuffentsamer - but I guess no one can prove anything without an original buyer of either of the two original collections to say for sure.

 

Happy to help!   I wish I had more information for you. I've seen a LOT of Eldon books and always figured they were the same guy.  

[mwotka]

I too have read through this thread several times.  I did some searching on the boards and found a few older posts that hadn't disappeared into photobucket oblivion of some more True Comics from Frisco's earlier posts.  You will note that all of them appear to be issues from the late 1940s.  Given that Hamman was born in 1934, that would have him reading these from about age 11 until maybe 14/15.  Those have cursive in pencil that is quite sloppy, and when looking at the signatures, the E usually connects to the rest.  From what I can see, those are the only ones from Hamman.    

The open question is the block letter signed issues as seen on the coverless Action 25, Superman 4, 7, 15, 19, 21, USA 3, World's Finest 3, and then the Jungle 47, which goes up to late 1943 (might be others I've missed, I checked HA and Comicconnect).  I don't think there is any way Eldon Hamman was reading these books at age 6 or 7 and writing his name on them so neatly, or leaving them in such nice condition (coverless Action aside).  They just don't line up with the True books from years later. There are numerous sales on Heritage and elsewhere mentioning the Eldon pedigree being from Hamman and these are incorrect. 

I think we all agree the cursive books, aside from True Comics, are Eldon Tuffentsamer.  They go back to early 1940s books with the tight cursive -script in ink with an E with a curl at the bottom separate from the rest.  See below my Fight 22 from late 1942, USA 4 from early 42, Sub-Mariner 5 from early 42, the Whiz 25 on an earlier page from late 1941, a Cap 1 & 3 from early 1941 and even Batman 4 from late 1940 (all not pictured are on Comicconnect).  Do the two styles connect?  It is possible he sometimes wrote in block letters.  Or there is another Eldon out there. 

I think Eldon Dedini is out because we've seen how he signed his full name in a block.  He was much older too so why would he sign what looks like a child's signature years after a stylized -script, as seen on the Funny Picture Stories.  And everything of his seemed to come out in one small lot in that auction of a few dozen books, I believe all of which are earlier than everything else that is signed. 

Therefore it is probably easiest to ascribe most everything to Eldon T.  I don't know that enough evidence exists to do so for the block letter signed copies.  But I have several pieces of evidence that it might be the same.  First is that Jungle 47 with block letters mentioned above and pictured on a previous page.  It is clear Eldon T. loved his Fiction House books and took care of them.  He had a number of issues in this era and run.  What are the odds of another higher grade early mid 1940s FH book with a different Eldon signing.   Second, there is the USA 3 with block letters and the USA 4 cursive, both higher grade.  Again what are the odds two Eldons collected the same issues back to back and saved in higher grade.  Third, is signature placement.  All of them are either above/below the title or in the title.  This is not Recil Macon signing everywhere.  I think the placement on both types of Eldon signatures is very similar, and the signatures are all quite compact as well, and in ink.  But ultimately I'm not completely certain.  There could be a 4th Eldon out there.  But I don't see any way to be certain, unless an issue exists with cursive and block.  He did double sign a few issues over the years so perhaps one is out there with both styles.  If it is him with both styles, he gave up on the blocky signature after 1943, when he was about 15.  

[path4play]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:02 AM, mwotka said:

I think we all agree the cursive books, aside from True Comics, are Eldon Tuffentsamer.  They go back to early 1940s books with the tight cursive ----------script in ink with an E with a curl at the bottom separate from the rest.  See below my Fight 22 from late 1942, USA 4 from early 42, Sub-Mariner 5 from early 42, the Whiz 25 on an earlier page from late 1941, a Cap 1 & 3 from early 1941 and even Batman 4 from late 1940 (all not pictured are on Comicconnect). 

That's the conclusion I have come to (but its not the official story of the pedigree on the CGC website).

Look, the Eldon's that have sold on HA range in age from 1940 to 1945, and moreover the "Tuffy" copies are Jumbo Comics #62 and Captain Marvel #35 - these are well known Eldon titles. Time frames match, signatures match, titles match, conditions match.  The Hamman's connection right now is only to the True Comics from 1947, mailed to the father no less.  I think Hamman is a red herring.

Now, if we could find a way to definitively tie the block style lettering to someone - I think you make a good argument for Tuffentsamer.  Or at least, the same household.  What are the odds of two different comic signing Eldon’s having saved one high grade copy of each of a consecutive number in the USA comics series?

I appreciate your research/insight...

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by path4play

[Professor K]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:08 AM, path4play said:

That's the conclusion I have come to (but its not the official story of the pedigree on the CGC website).

Look, the Eldon's that have sold on HA range in age from 1940 to 1945, and moreover the "Tuffy" copies are Jumbo Comics #62 and Captain Marvel #35 - these are well known Eldon titles. Time frames match, signatures match, titles match, conditions match.  The Hamman's connection right now is only to the True Comics from 1947, mailed to the father no less.  I think Hamman is a red herring.

Now, if we could find a way to definitively tie the block style lettering to someone - I think you make a good argument for Tuffentsamer.  Or at least, the same household.  What are the odds of two different comic signing Eldon’s having saved one high grade copy of each of a consecutive number in the USA comics series?

I appreciate your research/insight...

 

Great sluething from you guys, Especially the indication that the printed ELDON's were written by ET. I'm out I think. I'm looking at mainly the cursive Eldon from the last picture Frisco just posted which we know are Hamanns. Looking at the cursive one on the USA's and the True Comics I can not see a difference. I want to believe they are almost all from Tuffy but those True Comics are throwing me off. 

No one seems to know exactly when and where these books began to surface(or do they and I missed it?). CGC says they started surfacing in the "Late 80's". Doesn't help any as both men passed away by then. ET in 78 and EH in 87. 

Wait, maybe I'm back in. Does EH put a loop on the top of his letter E on the TRue Comics? Looking here on 3 forms of the name the only thing my eyes can detect is that the the cursive capital letter E's are different.

http://comicpedigrees.com/pedigrees.php#ELDON

[Pantodude]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:02 AM, mwotka said:

If it is him with both styles, he gave up on the blocky signature after 1943, when he was about 15.

I have a Wambi Jungle Boy #3 (Fiction House, Spring 1943) with the cursive Eldon, so perhaps he gave up the blocky signature before that. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Pantodude

[Miamiknight3434]

I picked up this amazing FH book a few months back.

 

 

[CitrusZ28]

I too have wondered about the Eldon pedigree, I din't realize that there were possibly 2 different Eldons involved but I was curious as to why some were signed in cursive and some signed with block letters. I bought this 3 Batman books back in 1984 out of an ad in The Comic Buyers Guide from a man named Charles Sawyer who was located in Boulder CO. I still have the box they were shipped in and had a mailing label with "Church" on it which brings to mind the famous Mile High Collection, not that these books were part of that collection but I wonder if there is some connection there. Sorry about the glare on the pictures, on the Batman #9 you can barely see the signature in cursive on the N in Batman.

 

 

[path4play]

Just in:

[mwotka]

I'm happy to share a major acquisition and development on the Eldon front.  I was fortunate to come across a nice grouping of Eldon books from the estate of a long time collector.  He loved Air Boy and had about a full run.  I quickly noticed he had at some point purchased a nice run of Eldon books for a good chunk of the Air Fighters run.  The books are all quite nice.  But the most exciting thing is one particular book, Vol2#6, has writing on the front and back.  The front has the usual cursive Eldon script.  But the back is very interesting.  He filled in the coupon in the block script!  This is the definitive proof that the cursive and block signatures are the same.  This has generally been agreed on for a while now by a number of you, but I don't believe there has been a book featuring both types of script.  It also shows his home address in Morton, IL outside Peoria, but it appears the home is no longer standing.  So to start with, here is the Vol2#6.  

[mwotka]

And then here are the rest of them, 7, 10, v2#1, v2#5, and v2#10.  A nice grouping, and I've never come across a run like this before.  

[Pantodude]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:29 AM, mwotka said:

The front has the usual cursive Eldon script.  But the back is very interesting.  He filled in the coupon in the block script!  This is the definitive proof that the cursive and block signatures are the same. 

Hmm.  But...the block script on the ped covers is "ELdon", while on that coupon, its "ELDON," which is different with respect to the "d", "o" and the "n".   Is it true that the Eldon ped does not involve covers with a "ELDON" type of block script?  If so, the block ELDON on your coupon does not prove that Eldon M. Tuffentsamer aka "Tuffy" also signed the block-script books out there, which are of the "ELdon" variety.  To the contrary, those who predate the computer era will tell you that back in the day, one's writing generally did not change in such significant respects from month to month or even year to year.    

[Action252Kid]

Not sure if this one is helpful at all to the mystery, but I thought this was a cool one worth sharing that I just came across.  Signed on the front like usual, and also signed (larger) on the back cover too.