HULK #1 CLUB : THE PUNY LITTLE MAN LEAGUE

[oakman29]

After all this I can't help but think"what would John Dolmayan think?"

[Jaydogrules]

Barring a grand conspiracy amongst dealers I have yet to see any actual evidence of shilling of hulk 1. And take it from someone who actually works in real estate - this is nothing like that .

 

It's actually more like what happened to AF 15 after its 1.1M sale. That sale reverberated all the way down to the lowest grades. Hulk 1 has set two records this year for a measly 9.2. You think that may have something at all to do with the price spike? What about the common knowledge that with about half the copies as AF 15 on the census it would only take about half the amount of collector interest for it to achieve near AF 15 prices ? So what would happen to prices if it attained equal interest as AF 15 with still half the amount of copies ? What about the fact that hulk 1 pre dates AF 15? Is tougher in grade with its black cover ? Features one of marvel's first characters adapted into a cartoon? A TV show ? A movie ? Got to the # 2 spot on the OPG SA list?

 

It could just be that hulk is the book that caught lightning in the bottle this year just like AF 15 did after its huge 9.6 sale. And that book hasn't really slowed down since. While the hulk 1's gains this year have been eye popping, this can just as easily be market fundamentals finally catching up with it- but in a positive way. That can be a positive thing as well, not necessarily just a negative. I believe what we are experiencing, if anything here is panic buying as people are seeing what's happening with the prices and they are trying to get in while they still can. What we are not seeing, even with the recent gains, is a ton of copies flooding the market. If anything the supply seems tighter than ever on the market. Prices will stabilize eventually, maybe even retreat a bit. But it does appear as though hulk is finally having his day in the sun, that has nothing to do with a movie announcement or what's playing at the box office right now. This is just good old fashioned example of a book catching fire on the merits of what it is. And that can't be a bad thing for the hobby.

 

-J.

[oakman29]

Barring a grand conspiracy amongst dealers I have yet to see any actual evidence of shilling of hulk 1. And take it from someone who actually works in real estate - this is nothing like that .

 

It's actually more like what happened to AF 15 after its 1.1M sale. That sale reverberated all the way down to the lowest grades. Hulk 1 has set two records this year for a measly 9.2. You think that may have something at all to do with the price spike? What about the common knowledge that with about half the copies as AF 15 on the census it would only take about half the amount of collector interest for it to achieve near AF 15 prices ? So what would happen to prices if it attained equal interest as AF 15 with still half the amount of copies ? What about the fact that hulk 1 pre dates AF 15? Is tougher in grade with its black cover ? Features one of marvel's first characters adapted into a cartoon? A TV show ? A movie ? Got to the # 2 spot on the OPG SA list?

 

It could just be that hulk is the book that caught lightning in the bottle this year just like AF 15 did after its huge 9.6 sale. And that book hasn't really slowed down since. While the hulk 1's gains this year have been eye popping, this can just as easily be market fundamentals finally catching up with it- but in a positive way. That can be a positive thing as well, not necessarily just a negative. I believe what we are experiencing, if anything here is panic buying as people are seeing what's happening with the prices and they are trying to get in while they still can. What we are not seeing, even with the recent gains, is a ton of copies flooding the market. If anything the supply seems tighter than ever on the market. Prices will stabilize eventually, maybe even retreat a bit. But it does appear as though hulk is finally having his day in the sun, that has nothing to do with a movie announcement or what's playing at the box office right now. This is just good old fashioned example of a book catching fire on the merits of what it is. And that can't be a bad thing for the hobby.

 

-J.

I think I agree with you.

 

Hulk head hurt!

[Jaydogrules]

I wrote that entire treatise hoping you would post the hulk emoji afterwards.

 

-J.

[oakman29]

I wrote that entire treatise hoping you would post the hulk emoji afterwards.

 

-J.

 

Truth be told Hulk #1 is a much harder book to come by,even more so in higher grades.Hulk finally is getting it's due,when the character deserves to be an icon in pop culture just as much as Spider-man,Batman etc.

[jaja-mon12]

Barring a grand conspiracy amongst dealers I have yet to see any actual evidence of shilling of hulk 1. And take it from someone who actually works in real estate - this is nothing like that .

 

It's actually more like what happened to AF 15 after its 1.1M sale. That sale reverberated all the way down to the lowest grades. Hulk 1 has set two records this year for a measly 9.2. You think that may have something at all to do with the price spike? What about the common knowledge that with about half the copies as AF 15 on the census it would only take about half the amount of collector interest for it to achieve near AF 15 prices ? So what would happen to prices if it attained equal interest as AF 15 with still half the amount of copies ? What about the fact that hulk 1 pre dates AF 15? Is tougher in grade with its black cover ? Features one of marvel's first characters adapted into a cartoon? A TV show ? A movie ? Got to the # 2 spot on the OPG SA list?

 

It could just be that hulk is the book that caught lightning in the bottle this year just like AF 15 did after its huge 9.6 sale. And that book hasn't really slowed down since. While the hulk 1's gains this year have been eye popping, this can just as easily be market fundamentals finally catching up with it- but in a positive way. That can be a positive thing as well, not necessarily just a negative. I believe what we are experiencing, if anything here is panic buying as people are seeing what's happening with the prices and they are trying to get in while they still can. What we are not seeing, even with the recent gains, is a ton of copies flooding the market. If anything the supply seems tighter than ever on the market. Prices will stabilize eventually, maybe even retreat a bit. But it does appear as though hulk is finally having his day in the sun, that has nothing to do with a movie announcement or what's playing at the box office right now. This is just good old fashioned example of a book catching fire on the merits of what it is. And that can't be a bad thing for the hobby.

 

-J.

 

+1!

[jaja-mon12]

I wrote that entire treatise hoping you would post the hulk emoji afterwards.

 

-J.

 

Truth be told Hulk #1 is a much harder book to come by,even more so in higher grades.Hulk finally is getting it's due,when the character deserves to be an icon in pop culture just as much as Spider-man,Batman etc.

 

I concur buddy! (thumbs u

[GAMBIT]

This auction can not be legit,

 

7k+ for a 2.0 .... Some people just want to believe anything I guess

 

 

I.E. Someone selling a cgc graded 5.5 af15 for 8k

[Hulksdaddy1]

Barring a grand conspiracy amongst dealers I have yet to see any actual evidence of shilling of hulk 1. And take it from someone who actually works in real estate - this is nothing like that .

 

It's actually more like what happened to AF 15 after its 1.1M sale. That sale reverberated all the way down to the lowest grades. Hulk 1 has set two records this year for a measly 9.2. You think that may have something at all to do with the price spike? What about the common knowledge that with about half the copies as AF 15 on the census it would only take about half the amount of collector interest for it to achieve near AF 15 prices ? So what would happen to prices if it attained equal interest as AF 15 with still half the amount of copies ? What about the fact that hulk 1 pre dates AF 15? Is tougher in grade with its black cover ? Features one of marvel's first characters adapted into a cartoon? A TV show ? A movie ? Got to the # 2 spot on the OPG SA list?

 

It could just be that hulk is the book that caught lightning in the bottle this year just like AF 15 did after its huge 9.6 sale. And that book hasn't really slowed down since. While the hulk 1's gains this year have been eye popping, this can just as easily be market fundamentals finally catching up with it- but in a positive way. That can be a positive thing as well, not necessarily just a negative. I believe what we are experiencing, if anything here is panic buying as people are seeing what's happening with the prices and they are trying to get in while they still can. What we are not seeing, even with the recent gains, is a ton of copies flooding the market. If anything the supply seems tighter than ever on the market. Prices will stabilize eventually, maybe even retreat a bit. But it does appear as though hulk is finally having his day in the sun, that has nothing to do with a movie announcement or what's playing at the box office right now. This is just good old fashioned example of a book catching fire on the merits of what it is. And that can't be a bad thing for the hobby.

 

-J.

 

No doubt Hulk #1 was due for a raise. :: A 2.5 just sold on Heritage for $6200 a few weeks ago. Now, a 2.0, with what I consider suspicious bidding, has already surpassed it. That's STRONG, too strong IMO.

 

I agree with SoT that shilling has set a lot of prices. So easy to do, no way to really track. I believe that about AF #15 as well. I think market manipulation is alive, and doing very well in this business. Noobs with deep pockets and little knowledge are easy targets.

 

Of course, all this is my opinion, I could be completely wrong. I'd like to hear Gator's view on it.

 

[Jaydogrules]

I have studied shill bidding. Made a whole thread about it in another section as a matter of fact. There is a distinct pattern for it.

 

The bidding in this auction does not fit the pattern. When you look at all of the bids, including the automatic ones, what you see looks a lot more like two bidders in a contest than any kind of shilling. One bidder of which has already made at least one try at a lesser copy earlier this week. I'm not so sure why this would be surprising to people, given that it always said around here that anything can happen in an auction when you have two squirrels fighting over the same nut.

 

All I do know is that the 4.0 that was on c link/comic connect that was asking 11,450 went poof. The 6.5 on c link that was asking 18k went poof. The SS 6.0 on ebay poofed for 16.8k. I believe Bob poofed his 4.0 on ebay for around 10k, and sold his 4.5 as well. Joey D's 1.8 poofed off ebay for nearly 5k. And of course let's not forget 325k+ and 26k+, on CC for a 9.2 and 7.0 respectively (both significant new GPA highs) and the 2.5 on heritage for a whopping 6200.

 

That's four different auction houses, as well as dealers and multiple publicly available sales. Again, unless there is a massive conspiracy to raise the price of this already highly desired and expensive book, I'm not seeing the shilling, or even a reason to shill. Why is 7k for a 2.0 anymore outrageous than 10k for a 4.0 or 17k for a 6.0 or 325k for a 9.2? In comic books a rising tide often raises all ships. Hulk 1 doesn't need to be shilled, the sales and demand are already there across multiple auction houses and platforms.

 

-J.

 

 

[Hulksdaddy1]

Shill bidding always looks like a *spoon* contest. 2 buddies, bumping the price up to the level the seller wants it at, then next legit bid wins. I think it has a classic shill look.

 

Now, could be to guys with zero auction sense doing it as well, which is why I've said I could be wrong. However, I think on big dollar items, shilling is more common than uncommon. No one wants to be the guy who got less than others got, so shilling makes sure he didn't.

 

Hell, GPA makes shilling almost a must. You can "establish" a new going rate for any book, and the collecting masses abide by it. I may be an ebay cynic(been on it since 1998), but I know what is possible, what's been done, and have learned what it all looks like.

 

For all you know, I'M a shill on it, driving up the price because I want to unload my 3.0. Can you say that I'm not? Course not, that's the point.

 

But, maybe Hulk #1 is just a Saturn V now, blasting up, up and away. That's fine with me too.

 

Now that I think about it, anyone want a 3.0 for $15k? Cause that's where it will be next month at the latest. ::

[jaja-mon12]

I have studied shill bidding. Made a whole thread about it in another section as a matter of fact. There is a distinct pattern for it.

 

The bidding in this auction does not fit the pattern. When you look at all of the bids, including the automatic ones, what you see looks a lot more like two bidders in a contest than any kind of shilling. One bidder of which has already made at least one try at a lesser copy earlier this week. I'm not so sure why this would be surprising to people, given that it always said around here that anything can happen in an auction when you have two squirrels fighting over the same nut.

 

All I do know is that the 4.0 that was on c link/comic connect that was asking 11,450 went poof. The 6.5 on c link that was asking 18k went poof. The SS 6.0 on ebay poofed for 16.8k. I believe Bob poofed his 4.0 on ebay for around 10k, and sold his 4.5 as well. Joey D's 1.8 poofed off ebay for nearly 5k. And of course let's not forget 325k+ and 26k+, on CC for a 9.2 and 7.0 respectively (both significant new GPA highs) and the 2.5 on heritage for a whopping 6200.

 

That's four different auction houses, as well as dealers and multiple publicly available sales. Again, unless there is a massive conspiracy to raise the price of this already highly desired and expensive book, I'm not seeing the shilling, or even a reason to shill. Why is 7k for a 2.0 anymore outrageous than 10k for a 4.0 or 17k for a 6.0 or 325k for a 9.2? In comic books a rising tide often raises all ships. Hulk 1 doesn't need to be shilled, the sales and demand are already there across multiple auction houses and platforms.

 

-J.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

Shill bidding always looks like a *spoon* contest. 2 buddies, bumping the price up to the level the seller wants it at, then next legit bid wins. I think it has a classic shill look.

 

Now, could be to guys with zero auction sense doing it as well, which is why I've said I could be wrong. However, I think on big dollar items, shilling is more common than uncommon. No one wants to be the guy who got less than others got, so shilling makes sure he didn't.

 

Hell, GPA makes shilling almost a must. You can "establish" a new going rate for any book, and the collecting masses abide by it. I may be an ebay cynic(been on it since 1998), but I know what is possible, what's been done, and have learned what it all looks like.

 

For all you know, I'M a shill on it, driving up the price because I want to unload my 3.0. Can you say that I'm not? Course not, that's the point.

 

But, maybe Hulk #1 is just a Saturn V now, blasting up, up and away. That's fine with me too.

 

Now that I think about it, anyone want a 3.0 for $15k? Cause that's where it will be next month at the latest. ::

 

Hulksdaddy, this is what a classically shilled auction looks like:

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=251626782521&showauto=true

 

...on a book that has come from complete obscurity 9-12 months ago.

 

Books like this and hawkman 4 that get hot only because of movie talk or a release are prime candidates for shilling. And of course almost every modern book you can think of.

 

Hulk 1 has 40+ years of being a marvel key. The book has been trending up for years already. People on these boards have touted for years how under valued it is. Books heat up all the time. Hulk 1 is already an in demand book that was expensive. It doesn't need to be shilled people already want it. It's already one of the most coveted silver age keys. It was already hot. The book shills itself .

 

-J.

[Hulksdaddy1]

Shill bidding always looks like a *spoon* contest. 2 buddies, bumping the price up to the level the seller wants it at, then next legit bid wins. I think it has a classic shill look.

 

Now, could be to guys with zero auction sense doing it as well, which is why I've said I could be wrong. However, I think on big dollar items, shilling is more common than uncommon. No one wants to be the guy who got less than others got, so shilling makes sure he didn't.

 

Hell, GPA makes shilling almost a must. You can "establish" a new going rate for any book, and the collecting masses abide by it. I may be an ebay cynic(been on it since 1998), but I know what is possible, what's been done, and have learned what it all looks like.

 

For all you know, I'M a shill on it, driving up the price because I want to unload my 3.0. Can you say that I'm not? Course not, that's the point.

 

But, maybe Hulk #1 is just a Saturn V now, blasting up, up and away. That's fine with me too.

 

Now that I think about it, anyone want a 3.0 for $15k? Cause that's where it will be next month at the latest. ::

 

Hulksdaddy, this is what a classically shilled auction looks like:

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=251626782521&showauto=true

 

...on a book that has come from complete obscurity 9-12 months ago.

 

Books like this and hawkman 4 that get hot only because of movie talk or a release are prime candidates for shilling. And of course almost every modern book you can think of.

 

Hulk 1 has 40+ years of being a marvel key. The book has been trending up for years already. People on these boards have touted for years how under valued it is. Books heat up all the time. Hulk 1 is already an in demand book that was expensive. It doesn't need to be shilled people already want it. It's already one of the most coveted silver age keys. It was already hot. The book shills itself .

 

-J.

 

J, I have to disagree. That's what a classic amateur shill looks like. Trust me, there are guys with 1000+ FB ratings that are out there shilling. Way more than you'd imagine. They are out there.

 

And shilling isn't about demand. It's about squeezing every extra buck out. That's why shilling hot stuff is so prevalent. People use it as an "invisible reserve", make sure they don't get less than what they feel their book is worth. Why else do you think people put reserves on million dollar cars at Barrett-Jackson?

 

I'd almost bet one of those ebayers is a shill.

[Jaydogrules]

Shill bidding always looks like a *spoon* contest. 2 buddies, bumping the price up to the level the seller wants it at, then next legit bid wins. I think it has a classic shill look.

 

Now, could be to guys with zero auction sense doing it as well, which is why I've said I could be wrong. However, I think on big dollar items, shilling is more common than uncommon. No one wants to be the guy who got less than others got, so shilling makes sure he didn't.

 

Hell, GPA makes shilling almost a must. You can "establish" a new going rate for any book, and the collecting masses abide by it. I may be an ebay cynic(been on it since 1998), but I know what is possible, what's been done, and have learned what it all looks like.

 

For all you know, I'M a shill on it, driving up the price because I want to unload my 3.0. Can you say that I'm not? Course not, that's the point.

 

But, maybe Hulk #1 is just a Saturn V now, blasting up, up and away. That's fine with me too.

 

Now that I think about it, anyone want a 3.0 for $15k? Cause that's where it will be next month at the latest. ::

 

Hulksdaddy, this is what a classically shilled auction looks like:

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=251626782521&showauto=true

 

...on a book that has come from complete obscurity 9-12 months ago.

 

Books like this and hawkman 4 that get hot only because of movie talk or a release are prime candidates for shilling. And of course almost every modern book you can think of.

 

Hulk 1 has 40+ years of being a marvel key. The book has been trending up for years already. People on these boards have touted for years how under valued it is. Books heat up all the time. Hulk 1 is already an in demand book that was expensive. It doesn't need to be shilled people already want it. It's already one of the most coveted silver age keys. It was already hot. The book shills itself .

 

-J.

 

J, I have to disagree. That's what a classic amateur shill looks like. Trust me, there are guys with 1000+ FB ratings that are out there shilling. Way more than you'd imagine. They are out there.

 

And shilling isn't about demand. It's about squeezing every extra buck out. That's why shilling hot stuff is so prevalent. People use it as an "invisible reserve", make sure they don't get less than what they feel their book is worth. Why else do you think people put reserves on million dollar cars at Barrett-Jackson?

 

I'd almost bet one of those ebayers is a shill.

 

Anything is certainly possible and greed knows no bounds. It just seems to me that in this case it would be an unnecessary risk since the comps for Hulk 1 are already there. I'm sure I have been the high bidder in more than my fair share of auctions where I looked like a shill. That's when I always made it a point to pay the seller immediately . Sometimes it really is just an eager buyer who wants it. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[GAMBIT]

To say there's a pattern or a staple of shilling means you don't understand shilling (no offense)... If you are going to suds fully shill an auction . It will look nothing like that link.. In fact, you (or I) will be able to tell

 

Now this hulk 2.0 for 7k right now is borderline obvious. I can not see this book being paid for. (And listed in gpa )

 

If one believes this is truley legit has 1 of 2 things in mind

 

1) the own a hulk 1 and want the absolute max value (don't we all!)

 

2) have a hulk 1 and are looking to sell in the near future for max profit

 

My

[Jaydogrules]

To say there's a pattern or a staple of shilling means you don't understand shilling (no offense)... If you are going to suds fully shill an auction . It will look nothing like that link.. In fact, you (or I) will be able to tell

 

Now this hulk 2.0 for 7k right now is borderline obvious. I can not see this book being paid for. (And listed in gpa )

 

If one believes this is truley legit has 1 of 2 things in mind

 

1) the own a hulk 1 and want the absolute max value (don't we all!)

 

2) have a hulk 1 and are looking to sell in the near future for max profit

 

My

 

The problem is you are looking at this one auction and drawing a conclusion while ignoring the litany of other sales and dearth of inventory that suggest that this price is not necessarily that far out of bounds. It takes more than just one ebay auction to move the needle on a book. If anything I am reading this auction as being the result of an already moved needle from multiple prior auctions and sales.

But like minds are free to disagree. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

[BarryAllen]

To say there's a pattern or a staple of shilling means you don't understand shilling (no offense)... If you are going to suds fully shill an auction . It will look nothing like that link.. In fact, you (or I) will be able to tell

 

Now this hulk 2.0 for 7k right now is borderline obvious. I can not see this book being paid for. (And listed in gpa )

 

If one believes this is truley legit has 1 of 2 things in mind

 

1) the own a hulk 1 and want the absolute max value (don't we all!)

 

2) have a hulk 1 and are looking to sell in the near future for max profit

 

My

 

No offense, but this is a bit of a hasty generalization. Not sure if this situation is so black and white.

 

It appears as if you are basically stating that people are either solely motivated by money or stupid... Not sure I agree.

 

Yes the price is high, but the prices of this book have been aggressively increasing for months and from what I have seen in private sales - this isn't too far off from recent transactions.

 

I am not saying that it 100% is legit, but I don't think there is enough evidence yet to draw such a strong conclusion...

[BarryAllen]

BTW let's be clear many books in this hobby established market prices came from the art of shilling.

 

[BarryAllen]

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=141392615672&rt=nc&_trksid=p2054897.l2565

 

Mama mia. This is one bloody auction. Just goes to show what two determined bidders can do to a book's price.

 

-J.

 

Yes this is an abolsute joke.

 

Over 6k for a Hulk #1 CGC 2.0 is just absurd and bad for hobby if this abolsute jerk off pays that price.

 

 

Paying ridiculous prices over what some "experts" would consider FMV is a part of any hobby. Human nature lends itself to brash decision-making.

 

Hard to find book + strong desire to own + recent failure in attempts to acquire the book = willing to go to greater lengths to obtain.

 

Not sure if I would call anybody a jerk-off for over-paying for a book they want. Maybe ignorant or on the far end a little foolish, but that is about it.