Pretty Marvels of the Day

[Ze-man]

The Human Top was a copy of DC's the Top, right? Which one came first?

 

Good question, I don't know?

 

 

Not sure if it is the first appearence, but BATMAN #129 has a Villian named the "Spinner" with a little propeller on his head, and that cetainly pre dates the Pym/Top run.

 

[garthgantu]

Interesting, Sfilosa... but

- Seems to me there are several SA pedigrees that contain far fewer than 1,000 books?

 

- How would CGC know how many books might be in a collection if the submitter has only sent in a few dozen? Wouldn't it make sense to ask the submitter how many books he/she has, whether they're original owner, etc.? Otherwise, you might look back in a year or two and say "damn, this guy has submitted 3,000 books and 94% of them have graded out at 9.0 or above - we should have awarded this collection pedigree status!" ??

 

- Does CGC disclose it's "pedigree criteria" ? What % of books have to be above a certain grade to achive pedigree status? I realize this would vary by age, key issues, etc.

[sfilosa]

- Seems to me there are several SA pedigrees that contain far fewer than 1,000 books?

 

- How would CGC know how many books might be in a collection if the submitter has only sent in a few dozen? Wouldn't it make sense to ask the submitter how many books he/she has, whether they're original owner, etc.? Otherwise, you might look back in a year or two and say "damn, this guy has submitted 3,000 books and 94% of them have graded out at 9.0 or above - we should have awarded this collection pedigree status!" ??

 

 

Obviously Burntboy can tell us the total story, but I'm pretty sure that CGC is NOT going to take the iniative to call something a pedigree. Basically the submitter would have to do that, probably send in a great many books at one time (if not almost all of them) and really get some high grades on some key issues.

 

My guess is also that CGC has to, a certain degree, seen enough SA/BA pedigrees. I would be surprised if they started putting anymore on the label unless it had several #1 issues in 9.0 or higher. If you notice there are MANY books being sold as "pedigrees" that CGC doesn't acknowledge (i.e. Monterey, Cleveland, Edenwald, Slobodian, etc.).

[namisgr]

Like the issue with pr_ssing (the word that must not be written!), the matter of what constitutes a pedigree worthy of recognition by CGC is, from my perch, clouded in mystery. The Sid's Luncheonette books may differ from some of the best-known Silver Age pedigrees in lacking NM-range copies of a number of early keys. On the other hand, it consists of a significant number of high-grade early Marvels and DCs. It is an original owner collection. In comparison with the Oakland and Mile High II pedigrees, I think it has some characteristics that make it more significant. Regarding Oakland, it is my understanding that the "pedigree" goes back no farther than 1966. Burnt's collection has that beat by several years. The MHII books seem to me to be a collection rather than a pedigree, since they are a warehouse find rather than an original owner find.

 

It would be great if Mark, Steve, West, or someone from CGC could weigh in on the criteria used to recognize a pedigree, and disclose how the Sid's Luncheonette books fail to measure up. I know one thing mentioned already that is most certainly NOT a criterion: the simultaneous submission of much of the pedigree. Needless to say, there are a number of peds that were recognized as such long before CGC came into existence and that have trickled in for slabbing that the latter considers peds.

[Red Hook]

Were all the previous pedigrees submitted by dealers after they eh-hem "assisted" the original owners? Have any original owners submitted the books?

[Jeffreykli]

Fantastic looking books!! On the issue of pedigree, I thought this had been discussed previously, and CGC decided not to grant Burnt's collection pedigree status because there are no distinguishing marks or characteristics to independently verify that each book belongs to the same collection.

[namisgr]

Fantastic looking books!! On the issue of pedigree, I thought this had been discussed previously, and CGC decided not to grant Burnt's collection pedigree status because there are no distinguishing marks or characteristics to independently verify that each book belongs to the same collection.

 

You may be right about a prior discussion, but the notion that the Sid's Luncheonette pedigree is not recognized by CGC as such because it lacks distinguishing marks is clearly off-base. For one thing, there are many Silver Age peds that lack distinguishing marks, including (but not limited to) Mass, Boston, Oakland, Diamond Run, and MHII books. For another, with the pedigree in the hands of its original owner, now is the best time to verify its contents and establish its pedigree status.

[namisgr]

Were all the previous pedigrees submitted by dealers after they eh-hem "assisted" the original owners? Have any original owners submitted the books?

 

You've got a point, Red, about all prior recognized peds as being submitted for consideration of same by dealers, and not their original owners. Still, do you really think this is an issue in the case of the Sid's Luncheonette pedigree, or is it more significant that Burnt's collection lacks high grade versions of most of the big-ticket early Silver number 1s?

[Murph]

I'd venture it's because the keys aren't high grade, there aren't complete runs, the books don't share characteristics, and he still collects back issues so some of the books weren't purchased originally off the stands.

 

Brian

[burntboy]

I'd venture it's because the keys aren't high grade, there aren't complete runs, the books don't share characteristics, and he still collects back issues so some of the books weren't purchased originally off the stands.

 

Brian

 

good points, brian.........

 

as i've stated before, while i have almost 1000 original owner SA books, there is not a consistency to the collection. the earlier issues (keys in most instances) don't measure up to the best copies. i have incomplete runs except for a handful of titles such as batman, superman, WW, fantastic four, JIM, green lantern, flash, sea devils,aquaman, atom, mystery in space.....)

 

i've actually purchased very few comics that are pre 1964 SA since i started buying again. most of my purchases were of a few SA Kets, GA restos, and post 1964 SA.

 

i think i'm going to unload about 120 - 150 HG SA DC's on CGC at the National and see what they get. (i'm guessing that 85%+ will grade at 9.0 and better). then CGC would have graded about 300 SA books from my original purchases and a very high percent will be high grade. (and then there are probably another 300-400 that would grade out around 7.0 - 8.5..........).

 

i still don't think that it will be good enough and that's OK. i'll just keep referring to them as the Sid's Luncheonette Collection (tongue-in-cheek)

[greggy]

Here's my 2 cents regarding the pedigree issue.

 

While discussing the issue with Steve B. sometime last year, I learned that initially, CGC were just going to recognize the limited pedigrees noted on their website. He felt that these were the best of the available pedigrees on the market.

 

However, he said that since he felt that the other owners of the other recognized pedigrees on the market would not submit them if it was not noted, they decided to note pedigrees that were already out in the market and had received some sort of market acceptance.

 

Sure, some of the pedigrees may not be the strongest but either due to the founder dealer's persistence in promoting the pedigree, they are well known in the market.

 

Steve said that at that time, the only "new" pedigrees that were named by CGC were I believe, the Northland (unsure), the Vancouver, and the Lost Valley pedigrees. Its' debatable whether the Mile High II designation is considered a "pedigree" or not but that happened because Chuck alledgedly "found" 2 rooms of these books.

 

Steve also agreed that the phenomenal Golden State Collection is a pedigree but due to the lack of a master list or accompanying certificates, they won't recognize it officially. I would imagine that the Slobodian and the Edenwald collection doesn't get the official nod due to the perception that the collection may not be original owner.

 

Steve said that some nice collections that have surfaced in the last few years MAY get the official nod if it is determined that there is more market acceptance of them. I have no idea what their criteria is with respect to this point so

[divad]

Were all the previous pedigrees submitted by dealers after they eh-hem "assisted" the original owners? Have any original owners submitted the books?

 

Perhaps I should find a dealer to ahem, "assist" me with my Tomato Boxers!

 

[divad]

I'd venture it's because the keys aren't high grade, there aren't complete runs, the books don't share characteristics, and he still collects back issues so some of the books weren't purchased originally off the stands.

 

Brian

 

good points, brian.........

 

as i've stated before, while i have almost 1000 original owner SA books, there is not a consistency to the collection. the earlier issues (keys in most instances) don't measure up to the best copies. i have incomplete runs except for a handful of titles such as batman, superman, WW, fantastic four, JIM, green lantern, flash, sea devils,aquaman, atom, mystery in space.....)

 

i've actually purchased very few comics that are pre 1964 SA since i started buying again. most of my purchases were of a few SA Kets, GA restos, and post 1964 SA.

 

i think i'm going to unload about 120 - 150 HG SA DC's on CGC at the National and see what they get. (i'm guessing that 85%+ will grade at 9.0 and better). then CGC would have graded about 300 SA books from my original purchases and a very high percent will be high grade. (and then there are probably another 300-400 that would grade out around 7.0 - 8.5..........).

 

i still don't think that it will be good enough and that's OK. i'll just keep referring to them as the Sid's Luncheonette Collection (tongue-in-cheek)

 

Harry,

 

As we've discussed before, this is what original owner collections are, they are not HG complete runs assembled after the fact. They are little johnny walkin' down to the local drug store / luncheonette, buying all the comics he can get his hands on, and then not letting any of his grubby friends read 'em for forty years!!!

 

Personally, I consider your collection to be an uber-pedigree. The hello with "official recognition".

[fantastic_four]

Steve said that at that time, the only "new" pedigrees that were named by CGC were I believe, the Northland (unsure), the Vancouver, and the Lost Valley pedigrees. Its' debatable whether the Mile High II designation is considered a "pedigree" or not but that happened because Chuck alledgedly "found" 2 rooms of these books.

 

Plus the "Don and Maggie" pedigree. If they're not meaning to call Mile High 2 a pedigree, then they probably shouldn't write it in the exact same place and in the exact same font as the other pedigrees. I can't imagine why they're denoting Mile High 2 except to generally promote comics...it REALLY seems to stretch the distinctiveness of the pedigree concept.

[Aman619]

I think BurntBoys collection COULD have been designated a Pedigree... and may still be possible. Clearly the existing Pedigrees we all know and covet WERE promoted by dealers. And clearly this fact gives rise to suspicious talk of conspiracy between CGC and these top dealers. But - - I think that's a conclusion that misses the obvious and ignores the reality of the comics collecting hobby.

 

Until only very recently, Collections were brought to market ONLY by dealers as they received calls from owners to sell them. Thats how the Pedigree collections came to be. Dealer would travel to a house after a call or a letter and agree to some low-ball price, and ship them back to the office as quick as possible. Then, theyd catalogue it and start promoting it... giving it a name as the "Next Big Thing!"

 

Back them, Burntboy would have called the major dealers and made a deal for all of them just like Church etc. Back then, Burntboy had no access to a CGC, or the status to back end the dealer process to try to market his phenomenal collection HIMSELF as a Pedigree. This is a very recent phenomenon. Burnt is selling his collection, a few at a time HIMSELF for RETAIL in the market. As such, it is up to him, and maybe Doug as his sales agent. to petition for Pedigree status. And better still due to our laissez-faire comics economy in 2004, Borock HIMSELF is already aware of the collection's awesome reputation and worthiness.

 

So helll yeah, I think Burnt CAN and SHOULD do all he can to push for the Pedigree. Perhaps it will ultimately be judged not thorough enough. Perhaps it isnt HG enough. But its dam close on all counts and is worthy of consideration.

 

right???

[jbud73]

I'd like to pick up on greggy and amann's points for a second. Thanks for the info Greggy and yes I too wonder what is marketplace acceptance. I was under the Impression that there was a preocess where you could offer your collection for pedigree status??? But I could be mistaken.

 

Further, by noting pedigree's on the label, which I applaud, CGC is setting a precedent and in doing so, I'm sorry they now can't just duck and weave back and say well we won't acknowledge until the marketplace does. To support Amann's point, when did the marketplace acknowledge Mile High 2??? Look CGC benefits by its position and status in the hobby, here might be time for them to stop bobbing and weaving IE: active notations for somethings, and leaving others to the whim of the marketplace.

 

Either they should recognize a tangible acknowledgement, even something like we recognize pedigrees as stated in the OS guide. Thereby throwing the ball in someone elses court, or here is the process or liptmus test for getting label notations for Pedigree status on the Label. The huge grey areas allow for too much waffling and lack of consistency yet again.

[goldust40]

And let's not forget that CGC also acknowledges non-pedigree collections on their label which denote the dealer who "found" them. Dallas Stephens collection, anyone?

[Aman619]

there is no official application procedure for Pedigree status, neither in the marketplace, nor at CGC. They are what they always have been and some named collections have been deemed more worthy than others and CGC marks them on the label. That has been THEIR choice, based, I am assuming, on common sense and a few tough. close calls, so it doesnt get ridiculous.

 

So, in the absense of some formal judging committee at CGC or elsewhere, its an open frontier and comes down to marketing and market acceptance. BURNTBOYs collection may be the closest thing to a Pedigree to surface since CGC and may in fact be a good test case.

 

First step is to make that list so everyone knows just how complete the collection is....!

[Aman619]

And let's not forget that CGC also acknowledges non-pedigree collections on their label which denote the dealer who "found" them. Dallas Stephens collection, anyone?

 

yup... an dwe know that Dallas' books got the notation because his collection was shopped around to every dealer and was well-known, and , because Chuck took it to CGC as such, and ordered a lot of slabs and made a case for its status on the label.. I think it was questionable, but business is business. I think CGC should have said no, and let Chuck print up a bunch of Dalas Stephens sticjkers for each slab.

 

WHICH Is not a bad idea for "also-ran" Pedigrees that are noteworthy to collectors (to track their provenance...) but not quite enough to CGC for the label...

[tth2]

i'm sitting here today trying to figure out if it's worth trying to get some HG DC's onsited at the national. not sure the quick turnaround is worth the fairly significant extra dough. if i had some HG keys it would probably be a no-brainer but for more routine books that won't bring in over $250 a pop, i'm not sure......what happens if they have to take them to florida. you pay the super premium for a bit faster turnaround???

 

Which issues, Harry? They don't always have to be keys to attract decent prices, it all depends on whether some HG SA DC collector somewhere is looking for the particular issues to fill his run.