Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[timfinz]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

When I originally cracked the 6.0 Blue - I thought it was at least a 6.5. As it turns out it got a 7.0.

 

I don't know what happened to the book after I sold it in the Purple slab. Perhaps it got a little damaged when the new owner took it out of the slab, maybe a dinged corner in shipment to Florida

 

Except for that crease, it was a beautiful book. The person I bought it from is SUPER pickey about his books, so that just confirmed my opinion

Dan, did you have the book when it was raw, or did you acquire it slabbed?

[timfinz]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

[Flaming_Telepath]

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

I can agree! But one question I would like answered:

WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it?

 

Because CGC are inconsistent and you're hoping for a grade bump...or as in this case, a designation bump.

 

There are a lot of people who play this game. Why? Because CGC are inconsistent.

You can't call CGC inconsistent for an error in judgement. I am a professional in my line of work but I too make mistakes, that doesn't make me inconsistent.

 

Not every book that comes off a press is the same, nor is every person's impression of a books grade. If everyone had the same opinion of everything what a very strange world this would be. But I guess the fact that my opinion of this "error in judgement" differs from yours is proof positive that would never happen.

 

If there are enough 'errors of judgement', a pattern is produced and it is called inconsistency. There are enough 'errors of judgement' with CGC for people to use the crack and resub game to make good coin.

 

I would respectfully suggest that's a pattern.

[MetalPSI]

Because it's not a "screw up."

 

It's an opinion, of *this* book, at *this* time, on *this* day.

 

And yes, you're perfectly right: a 9.6 and 9.8 can often be interchangeable.

 

There are books that are definitive 9.6 and 9.8.

 

The problem is that there is no 9.7 grade. I have seen thousands of books that "in my mind" I call a 9.7 and decide if I should give it a 9.6 or 9.8 depending on certain factors, one factor being "Will this book look like a 9.6 or a 9.8 in a holder".

 

You also can't have a 9.1, 9.3, 9.5 or 9.7 grade in the scale, as it would make it even more difficult to be a consistent grader.

 

PQ can change depending on the lighting. I had more trouble with PQ at onsite grading than I did sitting at my grading desk in an office.

 

 

 

hings would have been so much easier if CGC had used one hundred points instead of basing it on ten points. Coins use a seventy point grading system. Why did CGC decide not to go that route.

Because comic books fans are use to certain numbers. Think of issues 1 to 10.

It`s much easier for comic book fans to relate to 1 to 10. It`s probably why they went with the digital increments of 9 route as well. Far easier to get comic book fans to pay more money with a slight bump then a whole bump, hence why the digital 9 increments of 9.0 9.2 9.4 9.6 9.8 9.9.

 

This is why I do not mind in the least picking up a 9.6 SS. Possibility it could be a 9.8 or stay at a 9.6

[Flaming_Telepath]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

[Spider-Dan]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

[techtre2003]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

When I originally cracked the 6.0 Blue - I thought it was at least a 6.5. As it turns out it got a 7.0.

 

I don't know what happened to the book after I sold it in the Purple slab. Perhaps it got a little damaged when the new owner took it out of the slab, maybe a dinged corner in shipment to Florida

 

Except for that crease, it was a beautiful book. The person I bought it from is SUPER pickey about his books, so that just confirmed my opinion

Dan, did you have the book when it was raw, or did you acquire it slabbed?

 

He got it as a 6.0 blue

[timfinz]

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

I can agree! But one question I would like answered:

WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it?

 

Because CGC are inconsistent and you're hoping for a grade bump...or as in this case, a designation bump.

 

There are a lot of people who play this game. Why? Because CGC are inconsistent.

You can't call CGC inconsistent for an error in judgement. I am a professional in my line of work but I too make mistakes, that doesn't make me inconsistent.

 

Not every book that comes off a press is the same, nor is every person's impression of a books grade. If everyone had the same opinion of everything what a very strange world this would be. But I guess the fact that my opinion of this "error in judgement" differs from yours is proof positive that would never happen.

 

If there are enough 'errors of judgement', a pattern is produced and it is called inconsistency. There are enough 'errors of judgement' with CGC for people to use the crack and resub game to make good coin.

 

I would respectfully suggest that's a pattern.

I'm an estimator in the construction industry. My job is all about details and counting, measuring and counting again. I can take off a job three times and come up with three different prices. It doesn't mean I've made an error in judgement, it's called a variance.

 

Getting a differing opinion of a grade is a variance. Getting a blue label and a purple label in this case would be an error in judgement. If everything were absolute then grading a book would not require three people (or 12 in this case?) one would suffice.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

(thumbs u

 

As I said...'And that's in no way a judgement.'

[PovertyRow]

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded.

 

For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did.

 

Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like.

 

 

 

 

[timfinz]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

Sorry, Dan. Having to read a lot of the...ahem 'kav' dribble on here I think I missed that.

 

So when I responded to FT's post I was making the same comment. The grade is variable, the colour of label is not!

[Spider-Dan]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

(thumbs u

 

As I said...'And that's in no way a judgement.'

 

I know

[Flaming_Telepath]

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded.

 

For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did.

 

Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like.

 

 

 

 

This.

[joeypost]

Would you say that CGC is 99.99% accurate? Do they miss 1 restored book out of every 1,000? I am not talking about the grade but the color of the label.

 

It'd be hard to tell as many books that get a blue label, stay in that holder for the foreseeable future and therefore any missed resto probably stays undetected. Considering how many books you must sub and resub on behalf of people, I'd hazard a guess that you'd have as much insight into CGC's accuracy as anyone who isn't employed by them?

 

I can honestly say that in almost 8 years of submitting cracked out slabs to CGC I have only had this happen to me twice. One was a very early old label book that was designated restored (tear seal) and the other was a blue label book that came back trimmed.

 

I would be interested to hear from others who submit a large number of CR or CPR books to see what their numbers are.

[techtre2003]

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

I can agree! But one question I would like answered:

WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it?

 

Because CGC are inconsistent and you're hoping for a grade bump...or as in this case, a designation bump.

 

There are a lot of people who play this game. Why? Because CGC are inconsistent.

You can't call CGC inconsistent for an error in judgement. I am a professional in my line of work but I too make mistakes, that doesn't make me inconsistent.

 

Not every book that comes off a press is the same, nor is every person's impression of a books grade. If everyone had the same opinion of everything what a very strange world this would be. But I guess the fact that my opinion of this "error in judgement" differs from yours is proof positive that would never happen.

 

If there are enough 'errors of judgement', a pattern is produced and it is called inconsistency. There are enough 'errors of judgement' with CGC for people to use the crack and resub game to make good coin.

 

I would respectfully suggest that's a pattern.

I'm an estimator in the construction industry. My job is all about details and counting, measuring and counting again. I can take off a job three times and come up with three different prices. It doesn't mean I've made an error in judgement, it's called a variance.

 

Getting a differing opinion of a grade is a variance. Getting a blue label and a purple label in this case would be an error in judgement. If everything were absolute then grading a book would not require three people (or 12 in this case?) one would suffice.

 

Your job and what CGC does really aren't comparable. It sounds like your job has a certain tolerance for variance. There are many jobs that don't have that tolerance and too many errors are going to get you fired.

 

As we have seen in this thread people have a different amount of tolerance on how many errors CGC are allowed.

[timfinz]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

(thumbs u

 

As I said...'And that's in no way a judgement.'

 

I know

Well this thread could have been three pages if it weren't for kav! Not judging you either Dan, I'm now up to speed.

 

I still believe strongly in CGC and that what ever the outcome is we should support them. Give them as much feedback and information necessary to make the grading process more reliable and honourable. Most of all help to build credibility to the hobby!

[Spider-Dan]

Would you say that CGC is 99.99% accurate? Do they miss 1 restored book out of every 1,000? I am not talking about the grade but the color of the label.

 

It'd be hard to tell as many books that get a blue label, stay in that holder for the foreseeable future and therefore any missed resto probably stays undetected. Considering how many books you must sub and resub on behalf of people, I'd hazard a guess that you'd have as much insight into CGC's accuracy as anyone who isn't employed by them?

 

I can honestly say that in almost 8 years of submitting cracked out slabs to CGC I have only had this happen to me twice. One was a very early old label book that was designated restored (tear seal) and the other was a blue label book that came back trimmed.

 

I would be interested to hear from others who submit a large number of CR or CPR books to see what their numbers are.

 

This makes 3 for me. (Almost 4)

 

In my March submission an FF 19 that was a 9.0 Blue label was marked as "Appearant" before grades were finalized. I contacted CGC, and it was changed to "Universal" with the explanation the the pre-grader mistook a grease pencil mark for CT

 

I was going to save this story for Friday, as I didn't want it to get lost in this thread

 

So if I don't contact them does it stay PLOD??

[maloney414]

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

 

+1

 

There are parts of this thread that remind me of political filibusters.

 

Instead of trying to stop a vote from happening, some were trying to make it difficult for people to read about what happened.

 

 

[N/A]

Speaking of quality over price...I have begun to buy organic food, which is, as those of you who buy it know, much more expensive, generally, than "regular" food.

 

But...when you consider the poison that we all ingest on a daily basis, especially in the face of genetic modification, and the fact that the "real" price of unfiddled with food is much higher than what we pay, it begins to look like a bargain.

 

 

Organic is so confusing.

All I know is the organic stuff looks shriveled up and unappetizing and the people walking around the health food store look like zombies....

I'll take a Big Mac every time....

 

I guess you've never bought from an actual farmer who grows the food.

 

I will admit I know very little on the subject but would like to know more. It seems mst companies are inclined to disguise their food as organic making it difficult to learn. I will be visiting the farmers street market downtown this year and hopefully connecting with a local farmer.

 

I still like Big Macs.

[Spider-Dan]

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

 

+1

 

There are parts of this thread that remind me of political filibusters.

 

Instead of trying to stop a vote from happening, some were trying to make it difficult for people to read about what happened.

 

 

Will do - Every time I come back its 80+ new posts with about 10 having merit