CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books

[DrWatson]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

[joeypost]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

And your proof that they don't thorughly check books for resto is? That is a pretty flimsy statement, Pat. Especially when part of CGC's rep is built on their resto check.

 

Not really Casey. If you have to go through 150 books in a day, how much time can be spent in 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours? It all comes down to time, they run a business. Im not saying they are sloppy, I am saying they can not AFFORD to spend more then say 10 minutes on a book. The math just cant work.

 

And as far as the Rep. goes, what is this conversation about ?

 

Not entirely true. Out of all the books that pass through CGC each day the majority are probably moderns that might spend less time on resto check. I know through conversations that some books have been held for a few extra days to thoroughly check them.

[nik]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

 

120 seconds

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

And your proof that they don't thorughly check books for resto is? That is a pretty flimsy statement, Pat. Especially when part of CGC's rep is built on their resto check.

 

Not really Casey. If you have to go through 150 books in a day, how much time can be spent in 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours? It all comes down to time, they run a business. Im not saying they are sloppy, I am saying they can not AFFORD to spend more then say 10 minutes on a book. The math just cant work.

 

And as far as the Rep. goes, what is this conversation about ?

 

Not entirely true. Out of all the books that pass through CGC each day the majority are probably moderns that might spend less time on resto check. I know through conversations that some books have been held for a few extra days to thoroughly check them.

 

This is kind of my point still. And the few days to thoroughly check is assuring. I am not saying that they are doing a poor job, or that they are just blowing through books. I am just saying that working with the volume that they do, that quality control could be sacrificed (not IS). It is the same for any business. The higher the volume, the more chance for error. To not agree with that is just crazy. I worked in manufacturing for a performance auto parts company. We would put out (non-custom) say 600 parts per shift, and you were bound to have a few that just didnt pass. And the guys in the QC room would miss things here and there also. When you hit right before racing season, orders tripled if not more. At the rate they had to go through parts, this time of year would also show the most returns. It all comes down to time.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

 

120 seconds

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

[nik]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

 

120 seconds

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

 

120 seconds

 

[nik]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

 

120 seconds

 

 

Is their a point you are trying to make by quoting me without a response?

[joeypost]

Just out of curiosity, when you sell a raw book, how much time and effort do you spend on it checking for restoration, trimming and grade?

 

120 seconds

 

 

I don't know about the rest of you but this is one of Pat's better replies

[Old Fashion PB and J]

[GACollectibles]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

And your proof that they don't thorughly check books for resto is? That is a pretty flimsy statement, Pat. Especially when part of CGC's rep is built on their resto check.

 

Not really Casey. If you have to go through 150 books in a day, how much time can be spent in 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours? It all comes down to time, they run a business. Im not saying they are sloppy, I am saying they can not AFFORD to spend more then say 10 minutes on a book. The math just cant work.

 

And as far as the Rep. goes, what is this conversation about ?

 

Not entirely true. Out of all the books that pass through CGC each day the majority are probably moderns that might spend less time on resto check. I know through conversations that some books have been held for a few extra days to thoroughly check them.

 

This is kind of my point still. And the few days to thoroughly check is assuring. I am not saying that they are doing a poor job, or that they are just blowing through books. I am just saying that working with the volume that they do, that quality control could be sacrificed (not IS). It is the same for any business. The higher the volume, the more chance for error. To not agree with that is just crazy. I worked in manufacturing for a performance auto parts company. We would put out (non-custom) say 600 parts per shift, and you were bound to have a few that just didnt pass. And the guys in the QC room would miss things here and there also. When you hit right before racing season, orders tripled if not more. At the rate they had to go through parts, this time of year would also show the most returns. It all comes down to time.

 

On the flip side, repetition breeds familiarity. Handling the quantity of books they do, and with the number of people inspecting each book, the identifying process becomes easier when people become familiar with the different nuances of the paper cuts, and anomalies are more evident.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

And your proof that they don't thorughly check books for resto is? That is a pretty flimsy statement, Pat. Especially when part of CGC's rep is built on their resto check.

 

Not really Casey. If you have to go through 150 books in a day, how much time can be spent in 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours? It all comes down to time, they run a business. Im not saying they are sloppy, I am saying they can not AFFORD to spend more then say 10 minutes on a book. The math just cant work.

 

And as far as the Rep. goes, what is this conversation about ?

 

Not entirely true. Out of all the books that pass through CGC each day the majority are probably moderns that might spend less time on resto check. I know through conversations that some books have been held for a few extra days to thoroughly check them.

 

This is kind of my point still. And the few days to thoroughly check is assuring. I am not saying that they are doing a poor job, or that they are just blowing through books. I am just saying that working with the volume that they do, that quality control could be sacrificed (not IS). It is the same for any business. The higher the volume, the more chance for error. To not agree with that is just crazy. I worked in manufacturing for a performance auto parts company. We would put out (non-custom) say 600 parts per shift, and you were bound to have a few that just didnt pass. And the guys in the QC room would miss things here and there also. When you hit right before racing season, orders tripled if not more. At the rate they had to go through parts, this time of year would also show the most returns. It all comes down to time.

 

On the flip side, repetition breeds familiarity. Handling the quantity of books they do, and with the number of people inspecting each book, the identifying process becomes easier when people become familiar with the different nuances of the paper cuts, and anomalies are more evident.

 

I dont doubt this at all. The more you do something, the more familiar you become, the easier it gets. All I am really saying is that if something doesnt give that red flag, the time just isnt spent. Im not saying they breeze a book and throw it on the pile, but I cant see them spending too much time on every book that comes through. I am not suggesting that they have a rate of say 20% of trimming goes undetected. But I am saying that if it is very subtle, it may just go unnoticed. At the same time, I would think that since this first broke out, they may have refined methods for looking for this. I dont doubt that they put more effort into not having this happen again.

[Silver Surfer]

Why doesn't Steve Borock chime in on this thread, he can probably answer a lot of questions? He recently said himself that "I am no longer under contract" so he could shed some light into his conversations with Tom/Jason.

[Lee K]

I know - Why doesn't everyone send me their trimmed books, plus any other books they have that they suspect might be trimmed & I'll break them out of their slabs. Then I can cut out all the words & pictures and use blank paper & a paste pot (or a Paste Pot Pete) to write my manifesto.

 

No really, and if you send really, really cool books maybe I'll go but some of those fancy scrpabooking scissors my ex-wife had and use those too. I'll send you all copies of my finished manifesto (after protecting my international copyright) digitally.

 

L

[SilverRich]

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I don't mean to sound glib, but what then? What do you do with a book that nobody can tell if it's been trimmed?

 

 

 

If nobody can tell it's been trimmed, I imagine one must assume it hasn't been trimmed.

 

If a tree falls in the forest...

 

 

 

 

[FFNut]

 

Out of the number of books submitted by Jason Ewert that CGC has reviewed, the percentage found to be micro-trimmed is less than 10%.

 

 

How many books have been reviewed? Two? Five? Ten? Two hundred?

 

That 10% may or may not be significant depending on the total count of re-submitted/reviewed books.

[cloudofwit]

 

Out of the number of books submitted by Jason Ewert that CGC has reviewed, the percentage found to be micro-trimmed is less than 10%.

 

 

How many books have been reviewed? Two? Five? Ten? Two hundred?

 

That 10% may or may not be significant depending on the total count of re-submitted/reviewed books.

 

Good point.

[kc120us]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

And your proof that they don't thorughly check books for resto is? That is a pretty flimsy statement, Pat. Especially when part of CGC's rep is built on their resto check.

 

Not really Casey. If you have to go through 150 books in a day, how much time can be spent in 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours? It all comes down to time, they run a business. Im not saying they are sloppy, I am saying they can not AFFORD to spend more then say 10 minutes on a book. The math just cant work.

 

And as far as the Rep. goes, what is this conversation about ?

 

I had mentioned CGC's rep because their restoration check is a huge part of their reputation. People send they're books to CGC in part for their resto check. How many times has it been posted on this board people disagreeing with CGC's grading but send books in for the resto check. Btw, just how long does it take to spot resto? 10 minutes? 20? 30? Two days? Remember, CGC does the resto check twice on each book. First by their in-house restoration expert then again by the grading finalizer.

 

I don't mean to single you out, Pat. But, when you state in your post that CGC does not have the time to "properly" check a book for restoration (and that is what you said even if you didnt mean it) without any proof when restoration detection is one of the cornerstones of their service, I just have to shake my head.

 

Btw, when is your wife due? Must be soon, right?

[Transplant]

No offense to anyone but all this talk of CGC's ability to detect is a sidetrack to the point behind this thread. There is a group of books out there submitted and possibly trimmed by someone. There is also a group of books that CGC has agreed to review for undetected trimming. The questions arise from where those two groups overlap and why CGC doesn't proactively disclose the overlapping books and/or notify people who might own them.