CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books

[sterlingcomics]

I would be likely leaving out something if I tried to explain how the list on the NOD website was compiled, so I won't try. That list is, at best, an educated guess, as to the books that were either submitted or sold by Ewert.

 

The list is essentially a list of books known to be sold by Ewert (assuming that he subbed the books he sold) and a list of books on the same invoices of the books he sold (essentially guilty by association).

 

If I were a cautious collector, I wouldn't guess...I'd just avoid them all.

[lou_fine]

Go read my first post again. My issue is not with CGC. It's with this push to have all books evaluated, which is predicated on a non-existent ability to reliably detect trimming.

I did understand your post, and I disagree with it. CGC`s ability to reliably detect trimming is not non-existent, it`s just not infallible. There`s a big difference. Just because it`s not infallible doesn`t mean it`s not reliable or non-existent. Otherwise, all of us should be terrified to get on an airplane because not every one is made perfectly, although I`m not sure that anyone would genuinely say that Boeing or Airbus aren`t reliable manufacturers.

 

And I believe that CGC`s detection ability DOES markedly improve when they KNOW they`re supposed to be on the look-out for something. I don`t think that makes them incompetent, all humans are better at detecting something when they know to look out for that something.

 

So I don`t understand the naysaying in having CGC evaluate books, because (i) the quality of their resto detection has actually been proven to be pretty high, (ii) it`s definitely better than my own resto detection ability and (iii) there is no reasonable commercial alternative because it would be very expensive to pay Susan or Matt to review each book rather than CGC.

 

Now if your point is to simply remind everyone that CGC is not infallible, then I wholeheartedly agree with that, but that`s not what I was getting from your post. In any event, given the context of this thread, I think everyone is painfully aware that CGC is not infallible.

 

Fair enough.

 

How about this. Would you feel completely comfortable buying a former Ewert book that had been cleared by CGC?

Actually, I would, because I think the book would have been scrutinized very carefully, much more carefully than the average book, because they KNEW it was a Ewert book and knew what to look for.

 

Tim;

 

My sentiments exactly! (thumbs u

 

In fact, I would even take it one step further. If I had the choice between the following same 2 books at the exact same price, there is no doubt which one I would take:

 

1) A 9.6 Ewert book that has been checked and cleared by CGC with no known history of pressing; or

 

2) A 9.6 CGC book that I knew was pressed from a lower grade based upon before and after scans.

 

Without a doubt, the majority of the posters would select the second option based upon the current mood of the marketplace.

[lou_fine]

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I don't mean to sound glib, but what then? What do you do with a book that nobody can tell if it's been trimmed?

 

 

 

If nobody can tell it's been trimmed, I imagine one must assume it hasn't been trimmed.

 

If a tree falls in the forest...

 

 

Yes, does it really matter at this point and who really cares?

 

Especially if nobody (including CGC, Susan, Matt, or whoever) can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not. After all, every single book has been trimmed at the printer's already.

 

So once again, if it's in a blue slab and NOBODY can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not, then who really cares and why even give it a second thought. If you are going to be afraid of ghosts at every corner, you may as well find another hobby and give yourself some peace of mind.

 

Believe me, at this point the book has not been destroyed!

[FFNut]

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I don't mean to sound glib, but what then? What do you do with a book that nobody can tell if it's been trimmed?

 

 

 

If nobody can tell it's been trimmed, I imagine one must assume it hasn't been trimmed.

 

If a tree falls in the forest...

 

 

Yes, does it really matter at this point and who really cares?

 

Especially if nobody (including CGC, Susan, Matt, or whoever) can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not. After all, every single book has been trimmed at the printer's already.

 

So once again, if it's in a blue slab and NOBODY can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not, then who really cares and why even give it a second thought. If you are going to be afraid of ghosts at every corner, you may as well find another hobby and give yourself some peace of mind.

 

Believe me, at this point the book has not been destroyed!

 

Good point. Just get rid of that pesky purple label and embrace trimming and restoration!

[JohnT]

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I don't mean to sound glib, but what then? What do you do with a book that nobody can tell if it's been trimmed?

 

 

 

If nobody can tell it's been trimmed, I imagine one must assume it hasn't been trimmed.

 

If a tree falls in the forest...

 

 

Yes, does it really matter at this point and who really cares?

 

Especially if nobody (including CGC, Susan, Matt, or whoever) can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not. After all, every single book has been trimmed at the printer's already.

 

So once again, if it's in a blue slab and NOBODY can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not, then who really cares and why even give it a second thought. If you are going to be afraid of ghosts at every corner, you may as well find another hobby and give yourself some peace of mind.

 

Believe me, at this point the book has not been destroyed!

 

My thoughts go along the same line as this. Don't you reach a point where the trimming is so subtle and undetectable that it doesn't make any practical difference?

 

Although...one fear might be that someone comes up with a foolproof way of detecting even the slightest trimming in the future, and your investment would be torpedoed. Or that someone "in the know" spills the beans about what really happened to a slew of books.

[tth2]

CGC's ability to detect Jason's type of micro-trimming increases significantly if you tell them in advance that you are submitting an Ewert book. I do not have as much confidence in their ability to consistently detect the micro-trimming if you submit the book to them "blind".

That's all well and good, but where does that lead you? Is there someone else in whom you have greater confidence in their ability to consistently detect micro-trimming? If yes, is it a cost-effective solution, or would the resto check fees be too high to justify mass submissions? If the latter, then where does that lead you? Sometimes you just have to take the best deal you can under the circumstances, even if it's not perfect. The only other solution is to be paralyzed by fear and do nothing ever again.

 

The other question I have is, what if their are other micro-trimmers out there who are just as proficient as Jason, but with their own unique micro-trimming technique? What would CGC's chance then be of catching this if it has not yet been brought to their attention through before and after scans?

Okay, what if there are? Now what? It's easy enough to raise fears and make criticisms, but what is your alternative solution?

[tth2]

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I don't mean to sound glib, but what then? What do you do with a book that nobody can tell if it's been trimmed?

 

 

 

If nobody can tell it's been trimmed, I imagine one must assume it hasn't been trimmed.

 

If a tree falls in the forest...

 

 

Yes, does it really matter at this point and who really cares?

 

Especially if nobody (including CGC, Susan, Matt, or whoever) can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not. After all, every single book has been trimmed at the printer's already.

 

So once again, if it's in a blue slab and NOBODY can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not, then who really cares and why even give it a second thought. If you are going to be afraid of ghosts at every corner, you may as well find another hobby and give yourself some peace of mind.

 

Believe me, at this point the book has not been destroyed!

I have to be honest with you Dean, your line of reasoning gets kind of tiresome. So again, what's your solution? Because at this point I'm not sure what you're advocating other than that we should all be paralyzed by fear of what is possible, which I'm not sure is really a solution.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

When was this communicated?

 

I've asked about sending two books in and whether I would be reimbursed if the worst proves the case.

 

Harshen advised that I would receive submission credits.

[namisgr]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

When was this communicated?

 

I've asked about sending two books in and whether I would be reimbursed if the worst proves the case.

 

Harshen advised that I would receive submission credits.

 

This is unfortunate. I have two books in my JIM registry that have suspicious serial numbers, and so I would like to send them in for re-evaluation. Unfortunately, I could be out a whole lot of money by doing so, now that I no longer stand the chance to be re-imbursed for these blue label books, should they be found to have been trimmed. Not much of a guarantee from Certified Guaranty Company.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

When was this communicated?

 

I've asked about sending two books in and whether I would be reimbursed if the worst proves the case.

 

Harshen advised that I would receive submission credits.

 

This is unfortunate. I have two books in my JIM registry that have suspicious serial numbers, and so I would like to send them in for re-evaluation. Unfortunately, I could be out a whole lot of money by doing so, now that I no longer stand the chance to be re-imbursed for these blue label books should they be found to have been trimmed.

 

That really stinks. And they offer submission credits?? That doesnt seem very fair. I mean think about it. You buy slabs, get burned. So they offer you credit to have more books slabbed?

[tth2]

Kind of like an airline offering free flights to a survivor of an aircrash!

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Kind of like an airline offering free flights to a survivor of an aircrash!

[sterlingcomics]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

When was this communicated?

 

I've asked about sending two books in and whether I would be reimbursed if the worst proves the case.

 

Harshen advised that I would receive submission credits.

I sent an e-mail to Mark, Paul and Harshen a couple of days ago and assumed they were researching as they have not yet responded, so nice to know.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

Here's the response I got...

 

Mr. Beckett,

 

The only two books that are Ewert submissions are the Avengers #15 and Avengers #60.

What you can do is fill out a form online, print and write on the form: "EWERT REVIEWS" ATTN: HARSHEN PATEL.

Please send that in and we will take it from there. If any of the two are trimmed we will reimburse you with a credit for future submissions. Please advise when you will be sending them.

 

Regards,

Harshen

[awe4one]

If CGC were to post this list, would there be any type legal ramifications against them for posting that information on a public chat board?

 

Furthermore, let's say the list gets published. Where would it get published? Who would see it? How many of the owners of the current books in question would even care. What do you do if they don't?

 

If CGC wanted the full list to stay discreet, for whatever reason, what they could do is provide a search link on their main webpage for possible Ewert slabs. You enter the serial numbers and get either a yes or no answer. If the answer is yes then the customer gets further information on how to return the slab for evaluation.

 

Not an ideal solution but at least customers would have an outlet other than speculation and would goes a long ways towards CGC doing something proactive to solve this mess...

 

Jim

[kc120us]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

When was this communicated?

 

I've asked about sending two books in and whether I would be reimbursed if the worst proves the case.

 

Harshen advised that I would receive submission credits.

 

This is unfortunate. I have two books in my JIM registry that have suspicious serial numbers, and so I would like to send them in for re-evaluation. Unfortunately, I could be out a whole lot of money by doing so, now that I no longer stand the chance to be re-imbursed for these blue label books, should they be found to have been trimmed. Not much of a guarantee from Certified Guaranty Company.

 

To play devil's advocate, let's say the book is restored. Why does CGC have to reimburse you the price of the book? They didn't sell you the book. They didn't do the restoration. They made a mistake in their resto check. They should reimburse you the cost of their services since they failed in that instance. But to ask theyto pay you back on the money you gave someone else is too much. If you bring your car to a mechanic to have it looked at and they find the new brakes put in by a different mechanic are faulty do you force this mechanic to reimburse you for work the other mechanic did? No.

 

If CGC did what many of you suggest, they would go bankrupt. It is the person who orginally did the restoration who should do the reimbursing. Now, if there was found to be collusion between CGC and the restorer then that is a different story. But no one is suggesting that.

 

 

 

 

[lou_fine]

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I don't mean to sound glib, but what then? What do you do with a book that nobody can tell if it's been trimmed?

 

 

 

If nobody can tell it's been trimmed, I imagine one must assume it hasn't been trimmed.

 

If a tree falls in the forest...

 

 

Yes, does it really matter at this point and who really cares?

 

Especially if nobody (including CGC, Susan, Matt, or whoever) can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not. After all, every single book has been trimmed at the printer's already.

 

So once again, if it's in a blue slab and NOBODY can tell if it's been micro-trimmed or not, then who really cares and why even give it a second thought. If you are going to be afraid of ghosts at every corner, you may as well find another hobby and give yourself some peace of mind.

 

Believe me, at this point the book has not been destroyed!

I have to be honest with you Dean, your line of reasoning gets kind of tiresome. So again, what's your solution? Because at this point I'm not sure what you're advocating other than that we should all be paralyzed by fear of what is possible, which I'm not sure is really a solution.

 

Tim;

 

What I am saying is that if it has gone through all of the checks and through everybody's hands and still comes out as untrimmed, why can't we simply accept the fact that the book is not trimmed. This is the best solution that we have at this point in time.

 

If you still insist that the book is trimmed even if it has been given a clean bill of health by everybody else and you also can't tell yourself, then this may not be the hobby that you should be pursuing as there's no point in collecting in fear.

 

Actually, I don't find that my line of reasoning is that tiresome since it appears to be quite similar to yours.

[namisgr]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

When was this communicated?

 

I've asked about sending two books in and whether I would be reimbursed if the worst proves the case.

 

Harshen advised that I would receive submission credits.

 

This is unfortunate. I have two books in my JIM registry that have suspicious serial numbers, and so I would like to send them in for re-evaluation. Unfortunately, I could be out a whole lot of money by doing so, now that I no longer stand the chance to be re-imbursed for these blue label books, should they be found to have been trimmed. Not much of a guarantee from Certified Guaranty Company.

 

To play devil's advocate, let's say the book is restored. Why does CGC have to reimburse you the price of the book? They didn't sell you the book. They didn't do the restoration. They made a mistake in their resto check. They should reimburse you the cost of their services since they failed in that instance. But to ask theyto pay you back on the money you gave someone else is too much. If you bring your car to a mechanic to have it looked at and they find the new brakes put in by a different mechanic are faulty do you force this mechanic to reimburse you for work the other mechanic did? No.

 

If CGC did what many of you suggest, they would go bankrupt. It is the person who orginally did the restoration who should do the reimbursing. Now, if there was found to be collusion between CGC and the restorer then that is a different story. But no one is suggesting that.

 

I never suggested that CGC reimburse me the price of the books.

 

The problems are two fold: (1) Brulato no longer stands up for his role in the Ewert fiasco, and no longer offers refunds for doctored books he sold; (2) the quality of CGC restoration detection remains of concern, since there are no data available to the public that address either the frequency with which trimming has been identified on blue labeled Ewert subs, or the ability to reliably detect this type of trimming currently.

[kc120us]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

When was this communicated?

 

I've asked about sending two books in and whether I would be reimbursed if the worst proves the case.

 

Harshen advised that I would receive submission credits.

 

This is unfortunate. I have two books in my JIM registry that have suspicious serial numbers, and so I would like to send them in for re-evaluation. Unfortunately, I could be out a whole lot of money by doing so, now that I no longer stand the chance to be re-imbursed for these blue label books, should they be found to have been trimmed. Not much of a guarantee from Certified Guaranty Company.

 

To play devil's advocate, let's say the book is restored. Why does CGC have to reimburse you the price of the book? They didn't sell you the book. They didn't do the restoration. They made a mistake in their resto check. They should reimburse you the cost of their services since they failed in that instance. But to ask theyto pay you back on the money you gave someone else is too much. If you bring your car to a mechanic to have it looked at and they find the new brakes put in by a different mechanic are faulty do you force this mechanic to reimburse you for work the other mechanic did? No.

 

If CGC did what many of you suggest, they would go bankrupt. It is the person who orginally did the restoration who should do the reimbursing. Now, if there was found to be collusion between CGC and the restorer then that is a different story. But no one is suggesting that.

 

I never suggested that CGC reimburse me the price of the books.

 

The problems are two fold: (1) Brulato no longer stands up for his role in the Ewert fiasco, and no longer offers refunds for doctored books he sold; (2) the quality of CGC restoration detection remains of concern, since there are no data available to the public that address either the frequency with which trimming has been identified on blue labeled Ewert subs, or the ability to reliably detect this type of trimming currently.

 

Sorry, i thought you were hoping CGC would reimburse you. I do agree with you Brulato should continue to reimburse people. I agree that CGC should post the master list of Ewert subs but I don't see how knowing the # of books found to have been trimmed helps. I also don't know how CGC could prove their ability to detect trimming is reliable. How do you prove that? How do you prove that a book has NOT been trimmed?

[tth2]

Tim;

 

What I am saying is that if it has gone through all of the checks and through everybody's hands and still comes out as untrimmed, why can't we simply accept the fact that the book is not trimmed. This is the best solution that we have at this point in time.

 

If you still insist that the book is trimmed even if it has been given a clean bill of health by everybody else and you also can't tell yourself, then this may not be the hobby that you should be pursuing as there's no point in collecting in fear.

 

Actually, I don't find that my line of reasoning is that tiresome since it appears to be quite similar to yours.

Okay, if that`s what you`re saying, then I agree with you. It`s just that from what you wrote I thought you were saying just the opposite.