CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books

[Mr. Zipper]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

[kc120us]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

[nik]

I can understand his as well as many others concern about this matter. I believe it is to CGCs best interest to come out with an honest answer about the whole matter. The longer they keep people in the dark, the worse and worse this situation becomes.

[buttock]

I've seen blatantly MACROtrimmed books in blue CGC holders. I don't take them at their word on this.

 

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

That could be said of any person or company. No one or thing is 100% perfect or reliable. So then how do you define reliabilty? 99%? 95%? If you can't accept this, how do you live? Your car isn't 100% reliable. Your computer? So asking for 100% reliabilty in CGC is absolutely ridiculous. But, just because they are not 100% perfect, does not mean they are not reliable.

 

No, but those are testable and validated. And CGC's performance is not. That's a big difference, and not a good comparison.

 

I don't ask for 100% reliability from CGC. The point I'm trying to make is that this whole push to have trimmed books checked is a whole lot of effort for something that has no substantial value.

 

If you're happy that CGC gave your Ewert book a bill of clean health, then good for you. I personally wouldn't place much stock in that.

 

 

 

 

[buttock]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

No. But that's because I consider certification to be an informed opinion as to a books grade & resto status. I don't consider it to be gospel.

 

Some do, and that's misguided. It needs to be clear to people that CGC is fallible, just like any other service.

[Mr. Zipper]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

[kc120us]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

No. But that's because I consider certification to be an informed opinion as to a books grade & resto status. I don't consider it to be gospel.

 

Some do, and that's misguided. It needs to be clear to people that CGC is fallible, just like any other service.

 

And that leads to the next question, how many people believe CGC is infallible? I believe that number would be extremly small. I don't. I think it is the best currently out there. I believe when I buy a CGC graded book it has been impartially graded and been extensively scrutenized for restoration.

[kc120us]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

[Mr. Zipper]

Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Can't disagree with this. I just think people need a realistic expectation of what certification means. Certification of issues such as color touch, tear seal, etc is a lot more of a certitude than trimming. Do I think CGC does everything within its power to identify trimmed books? Absolutely. I just don't have tremendous amount of confidence that detecting subtle trimming with a high degree of accuracy is within anyone's power. Maybe I am wrong.

 

[Ze-man]

I want to clarify that I'm not calling CGC "liars", simply that I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I don't mean to sound glib, but what then? What do you do with a book that nobody can tell if it's been trimmed?

 

I'm just trying to understand if you are saying no ones opinon(be it CGC, Matt, Susan , Tracey , even Hammer) holds enough water for you to feel secure enough to buy a book because they "might" be wrong. Or simply that even though to the best of everyones knowledge a book does not appear to be trimmed, it still can be and people should be aware of that fact.

 

Which leads me back to my question, what then? What would you rather see

(in this instance) CGC do differently?

 

 

 

Regarding CGC's response about the Ewert submission list, timeframe and return policy.. well sorry Paul, I think your non answer stinks. I admit I do not fully understand all the dynamics of the Ewert fiasco, nor how CGC came to it's decision on how to best handle the "situation" But from the cheap seats it sure does not make sense why you are so unwilling to meet what appears to be a very simple request and work with everyone who has voiced concerns be they valid or not. Even if it means getting a more blackerer eye short term.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LordRahl]

Oh, and another question for CGC...

 

Why is Tom Brulato no longer reimbursing purchase price in the event of a book being determined to have been trimmed?

 

This is getting missed in the discussion of "can CGC ID trimming 100% of the time". But it's a damn good question and I'm sure we'd all like to know why TB is all of a sudden reneging on this. Although I don't see why it would be a question for CGC, no affiliation between CGC and TB as far as I know.

[Ze-man]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

 

Actually Pat I think CGC's rate of resto detection is probably on par with Matt or Susans. Once you get good at spotting it, it litterally jumps out at you and I imagine their screening, grading process includes a checklist of everything that Matt or Susan would look for. But I will agree it is the sheer volume of books that might allow things like micro trimming to slip through because of how hard it is to detect due to how closely it mimics production methods and it might be done to books that otherwise show no visible signs of other resto.

 

Do you have examples of books that CGC missed resto on that Susan or Matt detected?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

You already nailed the point Kenny. The volume is going to be CGC's biggest hold back. As you stated anything that doesnt jump out, may be overlooked. But in the case of Matt or Susan your chances increase by time that can be spent on one book. That time may be the difference in spotting a good trim job, vs. not. And no, I dont submit anything but moderns. I am working with realistic points. Time being the point.

 

I dont doubt cgc being able to catch a good portion of tear seals, glue, CT, replaced staples. But things like micro-trimming. That would take a little more time to come up with a solid conclusion.

[Ze-man]

You already nailed the point Kenny. The volume is going to be CGC's biggest hold back. As you stated anything that doesnt jump out, may be overlooked. But in the case of Matt or Susan your chances increase by time that can be spent on one book. That time may be the difference in spotting a good trim job, vs. not. And no, I dont submit anything but moderns. I am working with realistic points. Time being the point.

 

I dont doubt cgc being able to catch a good portion of tear seals, glue, CT, replaced staples. But things like micro-trimming. That would take a little more time to come up with a solid conclusion.

 

I hear ya, but there is a difference in handing someone a specific book and asking them to specifically look for any trimming. Then again that's what people are doing when they submit books to CGC!

 

Micro Trimming, a reason for Excedrin!

 

 

 

 

 

[conditionfreak]

Does CGC GUARANTEE their grading and restoration check (including trimming)?

 

Well, no.

 

Do they do their best deligence as any good company does? Yes.

 

As to micro-trimming, is it like the old question of if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it make a sound? The answer being yes. But, if a book is trimmed and no one can say for certain that it was or wasn't, does it matter?

 

Can a book be made at the factory that is not exactly the same as the book in front of it and behind it, on the assembly line. um, probably.

 

CGC does well, but they are humans. Sometimes you are the dog and sometimes you are the fire hydrant. No one can tell me that they haven't bought a book that later turned out to not be what they thought they were buying. It is part of the hobby and part of life in general.

 

I think that CGC SHOULD be proactive in resolving this Ewert issue, more than they currently are. But, in the big scheme of things. Some of us are the fire hydrants on this one and that is that. Move on. If a book that you have is not easily detectable as having been trimmed, you ain't that bad off. If I buy a bar of gold and it weighs .09 less than the other guys bar of gold, am I going to be too upset if we paid the same for them? Nope.

 

Are not ya'll the ones who keep saying "buy what you like" and you will be happy with it, and not for investment? Or did I get that message wrong?

 

Just stirring the pot a little

[kc120us]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

And your proof that they don't thorughly check books for resto is? That is a pretty flimsy statement, Pat. Especially when part of CGC's rep is built on their resto check.

[kc120us]

Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Can't disagree with this. I just think people need a realistic expectation of what certification means. Certification of issues such as color touch, tear seal, etc is a lot more of a certitude than trimming. Do I think CGC does everything within its power to identify trimmed books? Absolutely. I just don't have tremendous amount of confidence that detecting subtle trimming with a high degree of accuracy is within anyone's power. Maybe I am wrong.

 

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I don't think that anyone can reliably claim to detect or rule out trimming when done well. I think in some cases, there are probably tell-tale signs, but I'm sure there are probably just as many cases with no signs. Therefore a CGC "OK" doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Nor would an OK from anyone else.

 

I agree with this. Just like a "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean someone is innocent, a CGC OK means they can't tell with certainty it is trimmed.

 

This is not a knock on CGC... when done on the cover only and a very small amount is taken off, it may very well be impossible to know with certainty in some cases. Especially if the paper is fresh and well preserved... it may not exhibit some of the same "cracking" or snags that can happen when typically aged paper is cut.

 

Does that invalidate the certification in your opinion?

 

In this case, I think "certification" means that you've exercised due diligence in pursuing the truth.

 

Could I sell the book to another owner knowing I did my best to determine I wasn't passing off tainted goods? Yes.

 

Would I bet my life the book isn't trimmed? No.

Exactly, Steve and that is all you could do. Just as if you sent the book to Susan or Matt, you would have done your best to have the book examined for resto. Might they miss something, sure. Does it invalidate their examination? No.

 

Casey,

 

In response to this. CGC has how many submissions per day, and how many people who are "restoration experts". The volume of which books are submitted is what they are going to see the biggest problems with. I would imagine that when you send them a book they will give it the once over, but if nothing throws up a flag I doubt HIGHLY that they put much effort into this.

 

In susan or matts case, they see a considerably smaller amount of books, therefore allowing more time for a more thorough check. So if I REALLY wanted to be sure about my books condition it would go to them.

 

If I want a sweet holder, grade, and maximum cash potential on the market. I go with CGC. Or if I really was that concerned it would go to Matt or Susan before CGC. Costing a little more cash, but I know the book will have been thoroughly examined prior to slabbing.

And your proof that they don't thorughly check books for resto is? That is a pretty flimsy statement, Pat. Especially when part of CGC's rep is built on their resto check.

 

Not really Casey. If you have to go through 150 books in a day, how much time can be spent in 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours? It all comes down to time, they run a business. Im not saying they are sloppy, I am saying they can not AFFORD to spend more then say 10 minutes on a book. The math just cant work.

 

And as far as the Rep. goes, what is this conversation about ?