Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[seanfingh]

 

"Sorry sir, you're $250,000 Marvel key is now worth $50,000"

 

That's going to go over really well.

 

 

 

 

Then don't shrink the covers of $250000 books trying to wring another .2 out of it, presumably so you can get more money out of someone else.

 

My sympathy meter for that hypothetical person is pegged right between "don't care" and "you made your bed, now lie in it."

[skypinkblu]

I certainly don't want to sound anti-CGC, because I do value their restoration check pretty highly and plan to continue to buy slabbed books (with a strong preference for old-label books, however).

 

I also want to strive to avoid getting personal, because it is ultimately counterproductive.

 

However, in the case of these books, I do feel betrayed by the folks in Sarasota. Form a business standpoint, the employees are mouthpieces for the owners, who only care about the major submitters. However, the CGC graders are supposed to be "comic book people," not bankers or accountants, so they should have at least some loyalty to the collecting community--in other words, the people without whom their company wouldn't exist.

 

PS - I have worked for corporations before, and I always said exactly what I thought, without any editing for the sake of towing the company line. Someone can work for a company and still be his own man. (It does make getting promoted kind of tough...)

 

[VintageComics]

 

"Sorry sir, you're $250,000 Marvel key is now worth $50,000"

 

That's going to go over really well.

 

 

 

 

Then don't shrink the covers of $250000 books trying to wring another .2 out of it, presumably so you can get more money out of someone else.

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

 

 

[pickycollector]

Question for Matt, apologies if its already been asked. I have a book I wanted to have pressed. Its a 62 marvel. If I send it to CCS for pressing, is this the type of book I can expect to receive back? I wanted to use your service but I don't want my books to look like that.

 

Not to worry. I'm sure a page trimming service will soon be available to fix all these costanzas. (thumbs u

[namisgr]

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

No they don't. Look at the books from the Cole Schave collection posted in this thread. The exposure of the interior pages is greater than seen on just about any early SA Marvel comic (so long as it hasn't been subjected to a spine realignment, that is).

 

 

[thunsicker]

 

"Sorry sir, you're $250,000 Marvel key is now worth $50,000"

 

That's going to go over really well.

 

 

 

 

Then don't shrink the covers of $250000 books trying to wring another .2 out of it, presumably so you can get more money out of someone else.

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

 

 

Other than perhaps the value of some of these comics how is this different from the tape situation. The books already graded keep their value barring resubmission and they just grade down for it from here on out. It doesn't matter if it was storage (or tape a kid put on it to preserve it in the 40's) or pressing (tape put on it recently for a grade bump).

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

 

"Sorry sir, you're $250,000 Marvel key is now worth $50,000"

 

That's going to go over really well.

 

 

 

 

Then don't shrink the covers of $250000 books trying to wring another .2 out of it, presumably so you can get more money out of someone else.

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

I haven't seen too many that look like this. It's unusual.

 

[VintageComics]

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

No they don't. Look at the books from the Cole Schave collection posted in this thread. The exposure of the interior pages is greater than seen on just about any early SA Marvel comic (so long as it hasn't been subjected to a spine realignment, that is).

 

 

Greater, lesser, equal - not really the point of what I was saying but you are right that these were extreme examples. I could probably pull 100 scans right now of books that were not shrunken that exhibit similar, if not exact appearances though and if people are looking to ding "peek through / overhang" then most SA Marvels will suffer in varying degrees.

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

No they don't. Look at the books from the Cole Schave collection posted in this thread. The exposure of the interior pages is greater than seen on just about any early SA Marvel comic (so long as it hasn't been subjected to a spine realignment, that is).

 

 

Greater, lesser, equal - not really the point of what I was saying but you are right that these were extreme examples. I could probably pull 100 scans right now of books that were not shrunken that exhibit similar, if not exact appearances though and if people are looking to ding "peek through / overhang" then most SA Marvels will suffer in varying degrees.

 

Even a half dozen scans would ease my paranoia significantly....

[slym2none]

Also note that three books that are likely to have natural cover shrinkage posted by Ghost_Town, Peter_In_Portugal, and glasgap earlier in the thread all have 3/32" to 1/8" right-edge shrinkage yet none of them are miswrapped on the left.

I suspect those books just left the printer looking that way. If it were shrinkage, I think many more books from the same time period would look like that.

 

I'm not denying that natural shrinkage happens, but I'd be surprised if it were that noticeable.

 

Some yes, some no. Peter's Iron Man and Sub-Mariner #1 looks like it has a slightly angled right-edge trim such that the cover and top pages are about 1/8" narrower than the back cover and bottom pages. Your Spidey #42 MIGHT have an angled side cut, but I really can't tell from the scan. Are the interior pages all of equal length? It'd be easier to tell with book in hand. Glasgap's Fantastic Four 42 below has the classic right-edge pokethrough I'm used to seeing, and it's doubtful it came off the press that way. But I'm also not sure it's due to shrinkage. I wonder if this book was towards the bottom of a stack and the stack shifted at some point pulling the cover and top-most pages away from the bottom-most pages and back cover:

 

 

Looking at all these pics of these comics, the shift seems to have the majority of the poke-through at the top of the book. I don't think I have seen one yet where there is >1/16" at the top and ~1/8" at the bottom, it seems to always be in one direction.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Bomber-Bob]

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

No they don't. Look at the books from the Cole Schave collection posted in this thread. The exposure of the interior pages is greater than seen on just about any early SA Marvel comic (so long as it hasn't been subjected to a spine realignment, that is).

 

 

Greater, lesser, equal - not really the point of what I was saying but you are right that these were extreme examples. I could probably pull 100 scans right now of books that were not shrunken that exhibit similar, if not exact appearances though and if people are looking to ding "peek through / overhang" then most SA Marvels will suffer in varying degrees.

 

Roy, I don't think so. I found 1, as in a single one, uno, eins, in my collection that exhibited anywhere near the Cole Shave look.

I also don't think you can pull 100 scans of books you own that have not been pressed.

[Davenport]

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

No they don't. Look at the books from the Cole Schave collection posted in this thread. The exposure of the interior pages is greater than seen on just about any early SA Marvel comic (so long as it hasn't been subjected to a spine realignment, that is).

 

 

Greater, lesser, equal - not really the point of what I was saying but you are right that these were extreme examples. I could probably pull 100 scans right now of books that were not shrunken that exhibit similar, if not exact appearances though and if people are looking to ding "peek through / overhang" then most SA Marvels will suffer in varying degrees.

Post 'em up.

 

If shrunken covers are as common as table salt how come posters were so puzzled until Matt Nelson confirmed "cover shrink" and explained the years involved?

How come the term doesn't appear in the Grading Guide glossary or Overstreet definitions?

How old is this hobby?

[VintageComics]

Post 'em up.

 

If shrunken covers are as common as table salt how come posters were so puzzled until Matt Nelson confirmed "cover shrink" and explained the years involved?

How come the term doesn't appear in the Grading Guide glossary or Overstreet definitions?

How old is this hobby?

 

For you, I won't post any.

 

Why were posters so puzzled about the existence of cover shrinkage? For the same reason that Bedrock and Storms were when they ridiculed me about it when I mentioned it a few months ago in a Silver Age thread - because most people didn't know how comics were produced.

 

I think most people thought the covers were pre cut and attached after the interiors were trimmed. I guess that was their logical way of explaining how Marvel overhang was formed.

 

I've spoken to several people about it over the years - our own DiceX (who worked for a publisher), Tracey Heft, ZeMan, etc. and came to the understanding that the covers were indeed trimmed on all 3 sides with the interiors after they were all staple together.

 

The only other explanation for both overhang and the fanning that occurs on many if not most SA Marvels was that the cover (and interior leaves) changed shape after trimming.

 

That's why I started this thread to discuss it a few months ago. I thought since few people knew about it, it would be interesting to share.

 

I suppose it wasn't common knowledge because few people understood the printing process.

 

Even a half dozen scans would ease my paranoia significantly....

 

Chris, I'll post a few scans tomorrow. For you.

 

[paperheart]

 

My point (which you might have missed) wasn't that someone might want to shrink one of them for extra dough, it's that many of these big dollar SA Marvels already exhibit this phenomenon.

 

 

No they don't. Look at the books from the Cole Schave collection posted in this thread. The exposure of the interior pages is greater than seen on just about any early SA Marvel comic (so long as it hasn't been subjected to a spine realignment, that is).

 

 

Greater, lesser, equal - not really the point of what I was saying but you are right that these were extreme examples. I could probably pull 100 scans right now of books that were not shrunken that exhibit similar, if not exact appearances though and if people are looking to ding "peek through / overhang" then most SA Marvels will suffer in varying degrees.

Post 'em up.

 

If shrunken covers are as common as table salt how come posters were so puzzled until Matt Nelson confirmed "cover shrink" and explained the years involved?

How come the term doesn't appear in the Grading Guide glossary or Overstreet definitions?

How old is this hobby?

 

cause these are plucked from the ether excuses that are only interested in protecting the gravy train and not the hobby or the books themselves.

[Ghost Town]

Post 'em up.

 

If shrunken covers are as common as table salt how come posters were so puzzled until Matt Nelson confirmed "cover shrink" and explained the years involved?

How come the term doesn't appear in the Grading Guide glossary or Overstreet definitions?

How old is this hobby?

I have no idea if these covers shrunk or if it's just the way the books were assembled and originally cut. (I'm not posting these to defend the Costanza'd books. I'm posting them to point out that many books show similar traits.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slym2none]

It's bordering on McCarthyism now.

 

Seriously?

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

My opinion has been communicated to CGC via emails/phone calls.

 

Yes, there are guys on the boards who want to start trouble. Some are still carrying a torch for Matt from his Worldwide shill issue. Others are non-pressing and they bring an agenda to the table. I understand that takes a little more work on CCS/CGC's part when trying to respond to them but I prefer to confront the posts than ignore them. I've read all of CGC/CCS posts. Yes it is disheartening when people create paranoia but that generally happens when people don't know what is going on. And who is going to tell them the truth? CGC/CCS? Has CCS/CGC done a good job in the past at cutting something off before it runs out of control. The answer is No. To defend CCS a bit would any of the other "amateur" pressers have the balls to come on and defend their mistakes? I've seen plenty of pretty bad pressing, I haven't seen any threads throwing them under the bus and I could easily do that.

 

I have customers who are not happy with the responses CGC/CCS have given. These are very stable customers who I would not define as "paranoid". If one customer is emailing me then who isn't? There are a lot of big ticket lurkers who "disappear" from buying when stuff like this goes on. If people continue to see these "Facejobs as they call them" or "Costanza's as I do" they think CCS doesn't care what they are turning out. But rest assured CCS has now put a "This has been pressed" stamp on the book where one did not exist before. The problem is that if "Costanza's" still come out people will think CGC is doing nothing.

 

Here is my issue with the Spine Realignment press. If the Spine realignment is being downgraded is the "submitter" still being rewarded with a higher grade because he removed other defects or is the grade lower than it was before it was sent in? Clearly in the case of the Batman #23 the submitter still got a higher grade. Now I know that CGC doesn't know the grade of the book before it was sent in so how can they grade it lower than it was before to discourage this practice. In the case of the Batman #23 I probably would have stated that without the spine realignment this book would have gotten a 8.0. But without a "Before" picture there is no way to financially discourage the submitter. So it will still be possible to get an upgrade from a spine realignment process, just not as great an upgrade. A very drastic response to get it to stop is to cut the submitter off who is doing it which I would have threatened.

 

I continue to remind CCS/CGC that I am the one that sells your "Pressing and Grading". If CCS/CGC loses the integrity part of grading than CGC and I have nothing.

 

Without having to go through hundreds of pages, can someone easily c/p the CCS/CGC responses in one post?

 

Lazy.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[DeliBebek]

Does anyone have examples like this that aren't slabbed? To make the case fully, you have to consider potential effects of the slabbing process. Exactly how are the books oriented when they're inserted into the inner well? More examples of non-slabbed books with this apparent structural issue would make this consideration less pertinent, if not totally moot.

[Bomber-Bob]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Incredible books. However, I don't want to disappoint you but these are no where near the extent of a Constanza. Yes, a lot of books have a moderate peekaboo on the right edge, so what. The Constanzas are much larger and exagerated.

[Mark Zaid]

My apologies for not being present in this discussion as of yet. As was mentioned somewhere, I was out of the country and alas I have been swamped with dealing with continuing legal issues arising out of, among other things, the Manning and Snowden cases, as well as now the Navy Yard tragedy.

 

I am reading through the thread and will discuss the situation with CGC and respond where appropriate.