Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Timely]

Sorry Roy, but that's not right. All 3 outer edges are trimmed after the books are stapled.... then the books are folded. How else can you explain when the front cover to the centerfold are off-center or miscut when compared to the back half of the comic? The folding of the comic must be the last step in the process. That being said, when the book is folded the centerfold would stick out the farthest, as all subsequent pages and the cover must wrap around more and more paper as it goes around the spine.

 

The fanning of pages is there from day one. Age has nothing to do with it.

 

This captures my thinking up until 2004, and it makes complete sense. But how do you then explain the large number of Silver Marvels with absolutely straight right edges and no fanning? All trimmed and Friesan spends half of his days sleeping on the job?

 

Well, the really are not straight. If you look close enough, there is a "V" cut to them. Just like there are comics that are grossly miscut & offcenter after printed, there are also copies that are bound really tight and appear to be square by comparison.

[Timely]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

I can see the centerfold sticking out farther than the rest of the pages on several of Barton's books. I can't imagine that being a result of trimming. I'd have to see them up close to know how much variation exists in how far each pair of interior pages is poking through.

 

The centerfold always sticks out farther than the rest of the pages. At least it always used to (from the time period we are discussing). That, in fact, is a tell tale sign that a book has been trimmed. The way the books were originally cut, there should be a reverse V with the centerfold sticking out the most, and each page back a little more. A book which has been trimmed will generally be cut square.

 

Disclaimer (I think)

 

When books were new, they were all cut square.

 

All 3 outer edges were trimmed AFTER the book was stapled and folded. There is no question about it.

 

The fanning of pages (from interior to cover) I believe happens as the pages age over time. The cover the most, because (A) it's on the outside, so most exposed and (B) because it uses different paper than the interior. I would argue that cover paper is possibly even inferior to interior paper as you see more pre-chipping on covers than you do on interior leaves.

 

Roy - still gathering scans...

 

Sorry Roy, but that's not right. All 3 outer edges are trimmed after the books are stapled.... then the books are folded. How else can you explain when the front cover to the centerfold are off-center or miscut when compared to the back half of the comic? The folding of the comic must be the last step in the process. That being said, when the book is folded the centerfold would stick out the farthest, as all subsequent pages and the cover must wrap around more and more paper as it goes around the spine.

 

The fanning of pages is there from day one. Age has nothing to do with it.

 

West, no offense but that is absolutely incorrect.

 

How else would you explain the exact same, continual trimmer markings across all the wraps.

 

I even posted pics this thread.

 

Is nobody clicking on the link I keep providing?

 

Finally, Dice, who worked in one of the major printing factories that produces comics has stated over and over that the trimming of the book is the last step of the process.

 

There is no way you can get the same markings across all 32 pages unless the cut/trim was the final step of the process.

 

Click on the link I just provided and look at the picture.

 

 

Your own pictures work against you. If you look at your first picture in the link you provided, you can clearly see the front half of the book does not line up to the last half. If trimming was the last step, the two halves would be even. There is a clear "step" where the centerfold can be seen. No amount of aging will create that!

 

The edge hills & valleys are even because all the pages were stapled together when the books were trimmed, so they would be similar... and they are!

 

Folding has to be the last step. How else could you also explain books with staples that are not dead on the spine? Answer: The books are stapled first, then the books are trimmed, then the books are folded.

[VintageComics]

Your own pictures work against you. If you look at your first picture in the link you provided, you can clearly see the front half of the book does not line up to the last half. If trimming was the last step, the two halves would be even. There is a clear "step" where the centerfold can be seen. No amount of aging will create that!

 

The edge hills & valleys are even because all the pages were stapled together when the books were trimmed, so they would be similar... and they are!

 

Folding has to be the last step. How else could you also explain books with staples that are not dead on the spine? Answer: The books are stapled first, then the books are trimmed, then the books are folded.

 

I actually fanned those pages so that the effect of the markings across all of the pages could clearly be seen, so the book was not sitting naturally at rest.

 

Secondly, how could you get exactly the same markings across all wraps unless they were all done at the same time? Impossible.

 

Finally, Dice, who worked hands on at a major publisher who printed comics and magazines has already confirmed the in house process as trimming being the last step. Unless Dice has an agenda and is lying.

 

I'd be willing to admit that it is possible that trimming was not the last step at all publishers as I know they were printed at more than one but at this point ALL of the evidence we have points to it as being the last step.

[Timely]

Your own pictures work against you. If you look at your first picture in the link you provided, you can clearly see the front half of the book does not line up to the last half. If trimming was the last step, the two halves would be even. There is a clear "step" where the centerfold can be seen. No amount of aging will create that!

 

The edge hills & valleys are even because all the pages were stapled together when the books were trimmed, so they would be similar... and they are!

 

Folding has to be the last step. How else could you also explain books with staples that are not dead on the spine? Answer: The books are stapled first, then the books are trimmed, then the books are folded.

 

I actually fanned those pages so that the effect of the markings across all of the pages could clearly be seen, so the book was not sitting naturally at rest.

 

Secondly, how could you get exactly the same markings across all wraps unless they were all done at the same time? Impossible.

 

Finally, Dice, who worked hands on at a major publisher who printed comics and magazines has already confirmed the in house process as trimming being the last step. Unless Dice has an agenda and is lying.

 

I'd be willing to admit that it is possible that trimming was not the last step at all publishers as I know they were printed at more than one but at this point ALL of the evidence we have points to it as being the last step.

 

Trimming is not the last step & I can prove it shortly. Just need to find a few books to illustrate my point!

[comix4fun]

Not responding to anyone in particular or even this thread specifically but, overall, I spend more time recently wishing I was back to a time where comic collecting gave me the feeling of "cool book" and nothing else.

[fantastic_four]

Finally, Dice, who worked hands on at a major publisher who printed comics and magazines has already confirmed the in house process as trimming being the last step. Unless Dice has an agenda and is lying.

 

When Dice first told me that, I didn't really think he was right due to the reverse-V effect we so often see, and I didn't think that if he was wrong that he was lying, just that he didn't actually work there in the 1960s and the process could have changed in ways he thought he knew but in reality he didn't. I didn't become convinced of it until I had seen dozens of right edges on blue CGC books with completely straight edges and no reverse-V shape that Timely is suggesting I've overlooked. I'll look back at them and see if I've overlooked a far more subtle V.

 

The only way forward really is to go back and look at some books in person and take pictures of the edges. Scans of the front cover only don't provide enough detail to say one way or the other.

[Logan510]

Not responding to anyone in particular or even this thread specifically but, overall, I spend more time recently wishing I was back to a time where comic collecting gave me the feeling of "cool book" and nothing else.

 

I don't want you to, but if you left the boards I'm willing to bet that feeling would come back.

[Logan510]

Your own pictures work against you. If you look at your first picture in the link you provided, you can clearly see the front half of the book does not line up to the last half. If trimming was the last step, the two halves would be even. There is a clear "step" where the centerfold can be seen. No amount of aging will create that!

 

The edge hills & valleys are even because all the pages were stapled together when the books were trimmed, so they would be similar... and they are!

 

Folding has to be the last step. How else could you also explain books with staples that are not dead on the spine? Answer: The books are stapled first, then the books are trimmed, then the books are folded.

 

I actually fanned those pages so that the effect of the markings across all of the pages could clearly be seen, so the book was not sitting naturally at rest.

 

Secondly, how could you get exactly the same markings across all wraps unless they were all done at the same time? Impossible.

 

Finally, Dice, who worked hands on at a major publisher who printed comics and magazines has already confirmed the in house process as trimming being the last step. Unless Dice has an agenda and is lying.

 

I'd be willing to admit that it is possible that trimming was not the last step at all publishers as I know they were printed at more than one but at this point ALL of the evidence we have points to it as being the last step.

 

Did he work for the publisher that printed Marvel's books in the mid 60's? Also, isn't it possible that the process may have changed over the years or been slightly different depending on the printer?

[comix4fun]

Not responding to anyone in particular or even this thread specifically but, overall, I spend more time recently wishing I was back to a time where comic collecting gave me the feeling of "cool book" and nothing else.

 

I don't want you to, but if you left the boards I'm willing to bet that feeling would come back.

 

 

I just go back to being 10-11 and my mom taking me into Moondog's and letting me buy a TOS 43 and an FF 7 and a stack of Iron Mans from 3 to 20 and not even looking at the grades or caring. Great lady my mom. I think the total cost was about $17.00 and she got the guy to take $15, and she only once mentioned how the cover price said 12 cents.

 

I was just in wonder of the covers and stories.

[Shrevvy]

In response to comicwiz, I will stop lurking and make my first post in this forum. I have collected comics for nearly 30 years. Until earlier this year, I had never bought a CGC comic except for couple of rare instances when I could not find another copy (I immediately unslabbed the Canteen Kate #3 I bought). In the last few months, however, I have purchased a considerable amount of CGC books, many which have been high grade (9.4-9.8). When Pedigree posted on this board the upcoming Cole Shave auction, there were a couple books I was interested in and intended on bidding. After seeing the books, I chose not to bid seriously.

 

This thread has been very depressing for someone coming into CGC collecting. The responses by Matt Nelson and Paul Litch are very discouraging. It is equally depressing at how long it took for them to even respond to the thread. I haven't submitted a book to CGC or CCS. So, I am not presently a direct customer of either business. However, I have bought their product and these practices make it less likely that I will buy some of their product (those that look like the books in this thread) in the future.

 

[Timely]

Here we go. Sorry I could not find a more drastic example to show my point, but it will do.

 

If you look at the left side of this back cover, you can see the front half of the book extends out further than the back half. You can see it more at the bottom of the left edge than at the top. The only thing that can explain this is that the book is folded last. If it was folded first and then trimmed, the front half & back half would be flush.

 

 

 

[originalisbest]

Finally, Dice, who worked hands on at a major publisher who printed comics and magazines has already confirmed the in house process as trimming being the last step. Unless Dice has an agenda and is lying.

 

When Dice first told me that, I didn't really think he was right due to the reverse-V effect we so often see, and I didn't think that if he was wrong that he was lying, just that he didn't actually work there in the 1960s and the process could have changed in ways he thought he knew but in reality he didn't. I didn't become convinced of it until I had seen dozens of right edges on blue CGC books with completely straight edges and no reverse-V shape that Timely is suggesting I've overlooked. I'll look back at them and see if I've overlooked a far more subtle V.

 

The only way forward really is to go back and look at some books in person and take pictures of the edges. Scans of the front cover only don't provide enough detail to say one way or the other.

 

Just wanted to say f_f, that timely is right in that there is always a reverse-V to the pages, unless you're talking about a squarebound comic with the cover glued on, that is trimmed differently (like your typical paperback) and has a flatness to the edge.

 

It's exactly as timely said, and you surmise above, the v is there, but sometimes is much more subtle. I think a good example to look at to illustrate the subtle V effect are say, the Russ Cochran EC reprints (or any other apparently fresh, newly trimmed book.) At a glance it will appear to be cut very square, but look closely enough and the reverse-V effect is there, just in a very reduced fashion.

[slym2none]

Thanks, that's what I was seeing as I placed my ruler over the screen, the page exposure is much less.

 

. I'm also wondering if we would have to know if a book was pressed in order to compare it?

 

It would be interesting if we had guaranteed unpressed books to compare that showed

Shrinkage"

 

I don't think I've seen those examples.

 

 

I am not sure if these cover what the term "shrinkage" means here, but I do have some early X-Men right here that have never been graded nor pressed, and exhibit what the pics of the non-Close Shave books do - slight fanning, always pushed towards the top, with a slight bit of overhang.

 

(Note the TRHC is slightly bent, so don't think the pages are fanned 3/8" at the top!)

 

 

So, one thing I have mentioned before really stands out to me now - the FC is always pushed toward the TRHC, never downward.

 

 

It seems that the pressing the Close Shave books got exacerbated this effect to an unsightly degree. I can already see in my head someone making a round plate that fits into the top of the dry-press that will be able to rotate slightly, "fixing" these fanned pages.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Logan510]

Not responding to anyone in particular or even this thread specifically but, overall, I spend more time recently wishing I was back to a time where comic collecting gave me the feeling of "cool book" and nothing else.

 

I don't want you to, but if you left the boards I'm willing to bet that feeling would come back.

 

 

I just go back to being 10-11 and my mom taking me into Moondog's and letting me buy a TOS 43 and an FF 7 and a stack of Iron Mans from 3 to 20 and not even looking at the grades or caring. Great lady my mom. I think the total cost was about $17.00 and she got the guy to take $15, and she only once mentioned how the cover price said 12 cents.

 

I was just in wonder of the covers and stories.

 

This place is definitely a peek behind the curtain. I didn't even know pressing existed until coming here and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I find that reading comics kind of brings me back to the love and innocence of the hobby.

[comicwiz]

In response to comicwiz, I will stop lurking and make my first post in this forum. I have collected comics for nearly 30 years. Until earlier this year, I had never bought a CGC comic except for couple of rare instances when I could not find another copy (I immediately unslabbed the Canteen Kate #3 I bought). In the last few months, however, I have purchased a considerable amount of CGC books, many which have been high grade (9.4-9.8). When Pedigree posted on this board the upcoming Cole Shave auction, there were a couple books I was interested in and intended on bidding. After seeing the books, I chose not to bid seriously.

 

This thread has been very depressing for someone coming into CGC collecting. The responses by Matt Nelson and Paul Litch are very discouraging. It is equally depressing at how long it took for them to even respond to the thread. I haven't submitted a book to CGC or CCS. So, I am not presently a direct customer of either business. However, I have bought their product and these practices make it less likely that I will buy some of their product (those that look like the books in this thread) in the future.

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns.

[DiceX]

Here we go. Sorry I could not find a more drastic example to show my point, but it will do.

 

If you look at the left side of this back cover, you can see the front half of the book extends out further than the back half. You can see it more at the bottom of the left edge than at the top. The only thing that can explain this is that the book is folded last. If it was folded first and then trimmed, the front half & back half would be flush.

 

 

 

 

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

Due to static, it was not uncommon for the book to be slightly askew when it hit the trimmer.

The only natural pivot point is the center of the book, thus after it was trimmed and the book came back to being flat, the front and back half of the book could be slightly misaligned.

 

I don't know why this keeps getting challenged. It's simply way it was produced.

 

 

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

[fantastic_four]

Here we go. Sorry I could not find a more drastic example to show my point, but it will do.

 

If you look at the left side of this back cover, you can see the front half of the book extends out further than the back half. You can see it more at the bottom of the left edge than at the top. The only thing that can explain this is that the book is folded last. If it was folded first and then trimmed, the front half & back half would be flush.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the example, I'll mull it over.

 

Do you have a feel for what years for DC, Timely, and Marvel you think that trimming and then folding gave way to folding and then trimming?

[slym2none]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

Would that explain why the cover-shifting space is almost always larger at the top of the book?

 

 

 

-slym

[VintageComics]

Here we go. Sorry I could not find a more drastic example to show my point, but it will do.

 

If you look at the left side of this back cover, you can see the front half of the book extends out further than the back half. You can see it more at the bottom of the left edge than at the top. The only thing that can explain this is that the book is folded last. If it was folded first and then trimmed, the front half & back half would be flush.

 

West, it is more possible that your particular example has a spine roll that caused the pages to misalign then to go contrary to all the evidence.

 

Finally, Dice, who worked hands on at a major publisher who printed comics and magazines has already confirmed the in house process as trimming being the last step. Unless Dice has an agenda and is lying.

 

When Dice first told me that, I didn't really think he was right due to the reverse-V effect we so often see, and I didn't think that if he was wrong that he was lying, just that he didn't actually work there in the 1960s and the process could have changed in ways he thought he knew but in reality he didn't. I didn't become convinced of it until I had seen dozens of right edges on blue CGC books with completely straight edges and no reverse-V shape that Timely is suggesting I've overlooked. I'll look back at them and see if I've overlooked a far more subtle V.

 

The only way forward really is to go back and look at some books in person and take pictures of the edges. Scans of the front cover only don't provide enough detail to say one way or the other.

 

Right.

 

I have come to the conclusion that the reverse V (I'm assuming you mean that the centrefold bulges out first with each additional wrap protruding less) happens because of this shrinkage.

 

The books that don't have that shrinkage, where the edges are more or less straight, are books that through some strange freak of nature - whether it was storage conditions, etc, managed to avoid shrinkage. They are rare, and some people think they are trimmed they are so straight, but I have seen them. I'd say less than 5% of the books in existence don't have protruding pages when they should (because other examples of the same book exhibit it).

 

Here is the final proof that books were trimmed after they were folded.

 

Most people think comics are perfectly square. They are not. They are all slightly trapezoidal.

 

If a book was trimmed while open at the centerfold as West postulates, then when the book was open at the centerfold, the open edges would be straight, meaning a cutting blade running across the top and bottom edge of the book would leave straight cuts.

 

These are pics I just took of 3 very different books - one Atlas, one Blue Bolt and one GA fatty. With the GA fatty, I actually just did the centerfold because it was loose.

 

I took a ruler against the interior edge (centerfold open) and did not find a straight edge.

 

I ran the rule along the edge of one side and watched where it landed on the other side.

 

Safe to say that if the book was trimmed before it was folded the edges (left and right) would line up with the ruler.

 

These are actually the best examples I have seen as they are fairly square. Some examples I have seen are much, much worse.