Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[GACollectibles]

If the extended pages are the back half of the book, couldn't it have been stapled incorrectly? I know I had a Captain American that looked like that, with the back pages sticking out, but I don't think the staples were in the exact center of the book.

 

That could be part of the issue, a bad fold job with staples being off the spine(like the Nick Fury), absolutely.

[batman_fan]

Post 'em up.

 

If shrunken covers are as common as table salt how come posters were so puzzled until Matt Nelson confirmed "cover shrink" and explained the years involved?

How come the term doesn't appear in the Grading Guide glossary or Overstreet definitions?

How old is this hobby?

I have no idea if these covers shrunk or if it's just the way the books were assembled and originally cut. (I'm not posting these to defend the Costanza'd books. I'm posting them to point out that many books show similar traits.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All of these books exhibit a normal look that are not out of proportion.

 

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

[paperheart]

cause these are plucked from the ether excuses that are only interested in protecting the gravy train and not the hobby or the books themselves.

 

Another personal attack without any substance.

 

So you are saying that covers don't shrink or are you saying that you didn't know that covers shrink - because just going by Ghost Town's scans it's obvious that they do shrink. As I clearly said to varying degrees.

 

Nobody is trying to keep a gravy train going. Nobody is trying to protect this new pressing technique. Some people (like me) just don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

your continued use of absolutes is disheartening. CCS, CGC, dealers who press til the books bleed are all intent on keeping the gravy train rolling along.

[fantastic_four]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

I can see the centerfold sticking out farther than the rest of the pages on several of Barton's books. I can't imagine that being a result of trimming. I'd have to see them up close to know how much variation exists in how far each pair of interior pages is poking through.

[Ghost Town]

Of course there have been plenty of early SA Marvels showing a tiny bit of the interior pages, but not nearly to the degree seen along the entire length of the spine on the Cole Schave books after pressing. As pointed out long ago in the thread and apparent with Barton's terrific ASMs 15,27,28, and 33, a tiny bit of interior page exposure is common with early SA Marvels that have some front-to-back cover miswrapping. They are easily distinguished from these members of the 119771... certification series, however:

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I think what happened to the Cole Schave books is scary stuff.

 

The books you've pointed out have been particularly egregious examples of the Costanza effect. But I think too many books are being lumped together and some books are being scarlet-lettered that may not deserve it. For example, with the books comicwiz just posted, look at the JIM #83, ASM #9, and FF #12. I'm not suggesting those books weren't pressed, but their pages could have been peeking through the same way ever since they left the printer.

 

Take from those scans what you will, but I posted them because they were tagged "Cole Schave" and to respond to a few people's suggestions that they were no longer accessible through the listings from the Pedigree site. The Google cache feature is your friend.

 

The scarlett letter thing is more a by-product of the activity that is causing the problem. Abating or arresting the activity is where the solution to the perception problem that is causing it lies.

 

This thread has over 50K views and the people voicing their concerns are doing so at the risk of being labelled misfits, troublemakers, rabble-rouses, and/or a combination of all these things and perhaps much worse in the eyes of those who are waiting for a urine sample to help their decision, or those who don't want to acknowledge the misstep and accept responsibility.

 

With over 50K views and more than a dozen examples for reference, I don't need the results from the urine test to make up my mind, nor do I need my integrity ridiculed or questioned.

If you're suggesting that I ridiculed you or questioned your integrity, I don't know what post of mine you're reading.

 

Also, I think the large majority of people posting in this thread, myself included, have a problem with what happened to the Cole Schave books. And if anyone was labeled "misfits, troublemakers, rabble-rouses" I missed it.

[GACollectibles]

 

I've not seen this effect even when using a book press to exert hundreds of pounds of force on a comic. It's difficult to imagine the inner well exerting enough force to cause this separation of the interior pages and the cover. Any specific ideas how it could happen?

 

 

Not knowing the encapsulation process I can only speculate. Is the book sealed in a vertical manner? Is the inner well sealed counter clock-wise along each edge? I don't know, and have no idea whether the sealing method could potentially move the cover even the slightest bit. I do know that I have seen PLENTY of books that do not present in the slab like they do when they sit raw on the table, some pressure is applied to the book or it would float around.

 

Have you ever cracked a slab and encountered slight static friction of cover to inner well? I have. If the sealing process allowed for any inner well movement then it might contribute.

 

Again, this does not lessen the issue of whether the "bad" pressing is causing a bigger problem, but there might be other contributing factors to the appearance of a slabbed book.

 

And on a side note, please, don't tell me that there can't be bad batches of encapsulation or I wouldn't receive books books like this, with some sort of "fluff" inside the case and a loose piece of plastic in the middle of the back cover- and there is obvious no broken spot on the slab.

 

[Dale Roberts]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

I can see the centerfold sticking out farther than the rest of the pages on several of Barton's books. I can't imagine that being a result of trimming. I'd have to see them up close to know how much variation exists in how far each pair of interior pages is poking through.

 

The centerfold always sticks out farther than the rest of the pages. At least it always used to (from the time period we are discussing). That, in fact, is a tell tale sign that a book has been trimmed. The way the books were originally cut, there should be a reverse V with the centerfold sticking out the most, and each page back a little more. A book which has been trimmed will generally be cut square.

[comicwiz]

Of course there have been plenty of early SA Marvels showing a tiny bit of the interior pages, but not nearly to the degree seen along the entire length of the spine on the Cole Schave books after pressing. As pointed out long ago in the thread and apparent with Barton's terrific ASMs 15,27,28, and 33, a tiny bit of interior page exposure is common with early SA Marvels that have some front-to-back cover miswrapping. They are easily distinguished from these members of the 119771... certification series, however:

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I think what happened to the Cole Schave books is scary stuff.

 

The books you've pointed out have been particularly egregious examples of the Costanza effect. But I think too many books are being lumped together and some books are being scarlet-lettered that may not deserve it. For example, with the books comicwiz just posted, look at the JIM #83, ASM #9, and FF #12. I'm not suggesting those books weren't pressed, but their pages could have been peeking through the same way ever since they left the printer.

 

Take from those scans what you will, but I posted them because they were tagged "Cole Schave" and to respond to a few people's suggestions that they were no longer accessible through the listings from the Pedigree site. The Google cache feature is your friend.

 

The scarlett letter thing is more a by-product of the activity that is causing the problem. Abating or arresting the activity is where the solution to the perception problem that is causing it lies.

 

This thread has over 50K views and the people voicing their concerns are doing so at the risk of being labelled misfits, troublemakers, rabble-rouses, and/or a combination of all these things and perhaps much worse in the eyes of those who are waiting for a urine sample to help their decision, or those who don't want to acknowledge the misstep and accept responsibility.

 

With over 50K views and more than a dozen examples for reference, I don't need the results from the urine test to make up my mind, nor do I need my integrity ridiculed or questioned.

If you're suggesting that I ridiculed you or questioned your integrity, I don't know what post of mine you're reading.

 

Also, I think the large majority of people posting in this thread, myself included, have a problem with what happened to the Cole Schave books. And if anyone was labeled "misfits, troublemakers, rabble-rouses" I missed it.

 

It wasn't you. The guys who have been implying it or have outright said it know who they are.

 

As for the "majority" opinion, this board personifies the very problem with this suggestion. This is not about majority/minority opinion at all.

 

The people who have been taking swipes at participants speaking out about this from the very beginning appear to believe they personify an influence at the galactic center of the hobby. One which functions seemingly well outside of the activities of these boards, and who you could trace back to having friendships and/or having endorsed the very person/people at the center of the controversy.

[VintageComics]

cause these are plucked from the ether excuses that are only interested in protecting the gravy train and not the hobby or the books themselves.

 

Another personal attack without any substance.

 

So you are saying that covers don't shrink or are you saying that you didn't know that covers shrink - because just going by Ghost Town's scans it's obvious that they do shrink. As I clearly said to varying degrees.

 

Nobody is trying to keep a gravy train going. Nobody is trying to protect this new pressing technique. Some people (like me) just don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

your continued use of absolutes is disheartening. CCS, CGC, dealers who press til the books bleed are all intent on keeping the gravy train rolling along.

 

Yes Mike, but you quoted me when I was discussing actual cover shrinkage in the wild when you made your gravy train accusation. I had to assume it was directed at me.

[comicwiz]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

I can see the centerfold sticking out farther than the rest of the pages on several of Barton's books. I can't imagine that being a result of trimming. I'd have to see them up close to know how much variation exists in how far each pair of interior pages is poking through.

 

The centerfold always sticks out farther than the rest of the pages. At least it always used to (from the time period we are discussing). That, in fact, is a tell tale sign that a book has been trimmed. The way the books were originally cut, there should be a reverse V with the centerfold sticking out the most, and each page back a little more. A book which has been trimmed will generally be cut square.

 

I remember discussions centered around the aged trimming (and possibly the micro-trimming) methods having found a way to replicate the reverse V effect.

[lizards2]

If the extended pages are the back half of the book, couldn't it have been stapled incorrectly? I know I had a Captain American that looked like that, with the back pages sticking out, but I don't think the staples were in the exact center of the book.

 

That could be part of the issue, a bad fold job with staples being off the spine(like the Nick Fury), absolutely.

Are you saying the edges are cut prior to folding? That seems contrary to logic, but I'm not familiar with the process.

[VintageComics]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

I can see the centerfold sticking out farther than the rest of the pages on several of Barton's books. I can't imagine that being a result of trimming. I'd have to see them up close to know how much variation exists in how far each pair of interior pages is poking through.

 

The centerfold always sticks out farther than the rest of the pages. At least it always used to (from the time period we are discussing). That, in fact, is a tell tale sign that a book has been trimmed. The way the books were originally cut, there should be a reverse V with the centerfold sticking out the most, and each page back a little more. A book which has been trimmed will generally be cut square.

 

Disclaimer (I think)

 

When books were new, they were all cut square.

 

All 3 outer edges were trimmed AFTER the book was stapled and folded. There is no question about it.

 

The fanning of pages (from interior to cover) I believe happens as the pages age over time. The cover the most, because (A) it's on the outside, so most exposed and (B) because it uses different paper than the interior. I would argue that cover paper is possibly even inferior to interior paper as you see more pre-chipping on covers than you do on interior leaves.

 

Roy - still gathering scans...

[fantastic_four]

The centerfold always sticks out farther than the rest of the pages. At least it always used to (from the time period we are discussing). That, in fact, is a tell tale sign that a book has been trimmed. The way the books were originally cut, there should be a reverse V with the centerfold sticking out the most, and each page back a little more. A book which has been trimmed will generally be cut square.

 

The centerfold does not always stick out more. I see where you're coming from, but my understanding of the folding and trimming process differs. The reverse V shape would absolutely be expected if the books were trimmed before they were folded, but I believe they were folded and THEN trimmed. I used to think as you do, but DiceX changed my mind about it back in 2004--he worked a printing press similar to the ones Marvel used and thinks he knows how Marvel's printer at the time did the folding and cutting. Since he told me that, I've paid closer attention to right edges, and most often, the centerfold does not stick out farther than the other pages and there is no reverse V shape. It's common that the reverse V is there, but it's just as common for it not to be. Lots of Silver Marvels have perfect straight right edges, and it's not at all a tell-tale sign of trimming--which is one of several reasons why slight trimming is so difficult and sometimes impossible to detect.

 

Look at the books in my sig line--the #1 and the #12 have slight protrusion and it does look to me as if the centerfold sticks out the farthest, but I'd have to look up close to be sure. But the #2, #5, and #10 are completely straight on the right edge.

[VintageComics]

If the extended pages are the back half of the book, couldn't it have been stapled incorrectly? I know I had a Captain American that looked like that, with the back pages sticking out, but I don't think the staples were in the exact center of the book.

 

That could be part of the issue, a bad fold job with staples being off the spine(like the Nick Fury), absolutely.

Are you saying the edges are cut prior to folding? That seems contrary to logic, but I'm not familiar with the process.

 

On rare occasions, books are not layered, stapled, folded and then trimmed (in that order).

 

Sometimes publishers are left with additional parts and the process is changed to use up all the parts.

 

Sometimes you get interiors sent through the process and covers are reattached (books with a second set of staples - DD #169 comes to mind - very common on this book)

 

Sometimes covers are attached that are too short, either on the open (right) end or on top of bottom - I see this on GA books a lot

 

But for the most part - I'd say over 90% of the books, the process is generally layer, staple, fold, trim 3 edges.

[comicwiz]

It's common that the reverse V is there, but it's just as common for it not to be.

 

I don't know about that, although I have no statistical info to disprove it.

 

All I know is that the perception on vintage comics is the reverse V effect is more common.

 

What I can say from observational experience, is that people trying to pass off a book with an outer trimmed edge are more likely to use a method to replicate a reserve V effect than cut it square to ward off suspicion.

[GACollectibles]

If the extended pages are the back half of the book, couldn't it have been stapled incorrectly? I know I had a Captain American that looked like that, with the back pages sticking out, but I don't think the staples were in the exact center of the book.

 

That could be part of the issue, a bad fold job with staples being off the spine(like the Nick Fury), absolutely.

Are you saying the edges are cut prior to folding? That seems contrary to logic, but I'm not familiar with the process.

 

I am not sure of the exact sequence, but as Kenny once showed me this book has blade "fingerprints" that run from front cover to back cover in three different spots and includes both front and back covers, something to look for when determining whether a book has been trimmed(it doesn't appear to have been). Could the book have had a rounder/plumper spine at one point and then it settled due to post pro-duction bundling/storage or other conditions(other than intentional pressing)? I'm not sure.

[fantastic_four]

It's common that the reverse V is there, but it's just as common for it not to be.

 

I don't know about that, although I have no statistical info to disprove it.

 

All I know is that the perception on vintage comics is the reverse V effect is more common.

 

What I can say from observational experience, is that people trying to pass off a book with an outer trimmed edge are more likely to use a method to replicate a reserve V effect than cut it square to ward off suspicion.

 

Dupcak used to often (but probably not always) micro-trim the cover but not the interior.

 

The nice thing about this is that scans tell half of the tale, the books in your own collection tell the other half. You'll find large percentages of straight right edges in Silver Marvels, and when you look at examples like that in your own collection, you'll see plenty of them. I'm not sure I've ever seen a reverse V effect on a Bronze or later Marvel book. Modern comics are easy to see that they've been trimmed after folding for at least 30 to 40 years. I used to think they did it differently in the Silver Age due to right-edge pokethrough, but Dice's affirmation in the stickied production defects thread back in 2004 that they folded then cut caused me to start paying closer attention. I think he's right, otherwise I wouldn't see such a huge number of straight right edges throughout the entire Marvel Silver Age.

[Timely]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

I can see the centerfold sticking out farther than the rest of the pages on several of Barton's books. I can't imagine that being a result of trimming. I'd have to see them up close to know how much variation exists in how far each pair of interior pages is poking through.

 

The centerfold always sticks out farther than the rest of the pages. At least it always used to (from the time period we are discussing). That, in fact, is a tell tale sign that a book has been trimmed. The way the books were originally cut, there should be a reverse V with the centerfold sticking out the most, and each page back a little more. A book which has been trimmed will generally be cut square.

 

Disclaimer (I think)

 

When books were new, they were all cut square.

 

All 3 outer edges were trimmed AFTER the book was stapled and folded. There is no question about it.

 

The fanning of pages (from interior to cover) I believe happens as the pages age over time. The cover the most, because (A) it's on the outside, so most exposed and (B) because it uses different paper than the interior. I would argue that cover paper is possibly even inferior to interior paper as you see more pre-chipping on covers than you do on interior leaves.

 

Roy - still gathering scans...

 

Sorry Roy, but that's not right. All 3 outer edges are trimmed after the books are stapled.... then the books are folded. How else can you explain when the front cover to the centerfold are off-center or miscut when compared to the back half of the comic? The folding of the comic must be the last step in the process. That being said, when the book is folded the centerfold would stick out the farthest, as all subsequent pages and the cover must wrap around more and more paper as it goes around the spine.

 

The fanning of pages is there from day one. Age has nothing to do with it.

[fantastic_four]

Sorry Roy, but that's not right. All 3 outer edges are trimmed after the books are stapled.... then the books are folded. How else can you explain when the front cover to the centerfold are off-center or miscut when compared to the back half of the comic? The folding of the comic must be the last step in the process. That being said, when the book is folded the centerfold would stick out the farthest, as all subsequent pages and the cover must wrap around more and more paper as it goes around the spine.

 

The fanning of pages is there from day one. Age has nothing to do with it.

 

This captures my thinking up until 2004, and it makes complete sense. But how do you then explain the large number of Silver Marvels with absolutely straight right edges and no fanning? All trimmed and Friesan spends half of his days sleeping on the job?

[VintageComics]

None of these books look like cover shrinkage. They all look like the pull back is from the trimming process.

 

I can see the centerfold sticking out farther than the rest of the pages on several of Barton's books. I can't imagine that being a result of trimming. I'd have to see them up close to know how much variation exists in how far each pair of interior pages is poking through.

 

The centerfold always sticks out farther than the rest of the pages. At least it always used to (from the time period we are discussing). That, in fact, is a tell tale sign that a book has been trimmed. The way the books were originally cut, there should be a reverse V with the centerfold sticking out the most, and each page back a little more. A book which has been trimmed will generally be cut square.

 

Disclaimer (I think)

 

When books were new, they were all cut square.

 

All 3 outer edges were trimmed AFTER the book was stapled and folded. There is no question about it.

 

The fanning of pages (from interior to cover) I believe happens as the pages age over time. The cover the most, because (A) it's on the outside, so most exposed and (B) because it uses different paper than the interior. I would argue that cover paper is possibly even inferior to interior paper as you see more pre-chipping on covers than you do on interior leaves.

 

Roy - still gathering scans...

 

Sorry Roy, but that's not right. All 3 outer edges are trimmed after the books are stapled.... then the books are folded. How else can you explain when the front cover to the centerfold are off-center or miscut when compared to the back half of the comic? The folding of the comic must be the last step in the process. That being said, when the book is folded the centerfold would stick out the farthest, as all subsequent pages and the cover must wrap around more and more paper as it goes around the spine.

 

The fanning of pages is there from day one. Age has nothing to do with it.

 

West, no offense but that is absolutely incorrect.

 

How else would you explain the exact same, continual trimmer markings across all the wraps.

 

I even posted pics this thread.

 

Is nobody clicking on the link I keep providing?

 

Finally, Dice, who worked in one of the major printing factories that produces comics has stated over and over that the trimming of the book is the last step of the process.

 

There is no way you can get the same markings across all 32 pages unless the cut/trim was the final step of the process.

 

Click on the link I just provided and look at the picture.