Answer from CGC.........

[drbanner]

And somewhere, someplace, J_C is smiling.

 

Maybe I'm biased b/c JC was on my grading team (even if he did quit), but I don't think he's that petty/bitter that he would be happy about something that's bad for the hobby. CGC getting into the business of pressing was never part of TGC of '04 theory anyway...

 

(Did I just defend JC?!?!? )

[fantastic_four]

It has enough problems without greedy SOBs taking away the only bright point left currently in this hobby.

 

The greed has always been concentrated most heavily in the sector of the hobby you're decrying as being ruined by it. Greed has driven the CGC market since the beginning. And just as it was for Gecko, greed isn't ONLY good, it's a mixed bag--it inspires both innovation and corruption in ANY market, whether it be comics, gold, or tech stocks. Additionally, CGC plays almost NO role in the vast majority of the thousands of local comic shops around the US and Canada, so I'm not sure how less than 1% of the back issue market represents some sort of haven of positivity for comics, particularly given the general hobby's disdain for the obsessivly materialistic focus on grade, rarity, and money that the typical CGC buyer exhibits. I doubt the average non-certified comics collector would be all that surprised how high grade collectors are feeding on each other over a topic like this; it seems natural given the obsessive nature of how we collect.

 

Your vision of an innocent and pure market being tainted by the attemtped legitimization of cleaning and pressing is a bit selective and rose-colored, and I still strongly maintain that almost everyone who doesn't care much about the money involved in comics could care less about whether cleaning and pressing are restoration or not. There are a few purists who care purely about the aesthetics of it, but I'm not sure I've seen one posting in this thread...

[Foolkiller]

"The point is, ladies and gentlemen, greed is good. Greed works, greed is right. greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed in all its forms, greed for life, money, love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind -- and greed, mark my words -- will save not only Teldar Paper but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA...Thank you."

 

-- Gordon Gekko

[comicwiz]

There are a few purists who care purely about the aesthetics of it, but I'm not sure I've seen one posting in this thread...

 

And what, pray tell, are my reasons for taking a stand against this whole issue of pressing? Since you've managed to seperate the pepper-corn from the chicken [#@$%!!!], especially with the last sentence in your post, I'd really like to hear how you arrived at your determination of my own motivations, and intent behind sharing my opinion so forcefully, if not for purist principles.

[burntboy]

And somewhere, someplace, J_C is smiling.

 

Maybe I'm biased b/c JC was on my grading team (even if he did quit), but I don't think he's that petty/bitter that he would be happy about something that's bad for the hobby. CGC getting into the business of pressing was never part of TGC of '04 theory anyway...

 

(Did I just defend JC?!?!? )

 

 

i agree - this is NOT the reason that TGC was going to occur this year.

 

nevertheless, i believe that JC would be happy to point out any significant market correction as TGC regardless of the reason..........just MHO........

[comicwiz]

And somewhere, someplace, J_C is smiling.

 

Maybe I'm biased b/c JC was on my grading team (even if he did quit), but I don't think he's that petty/bitter that he would be happy about something that's bad for the hobby. CGC getting into the business of pressing was never part of TGC of '04 theory anyway...

 

(Did I just defend JC?!?!? )

 

You would be surprised with what J_C actually knew, and how much of it was reluctantly held back from being shared publicly, especially near the end when he was getting mocked for even suggesting anything that would remotely resemble an off-colour comment.

[awe4one]

Well I've never been in this hobby for the money. Never. Believe it or not, there are a few here on this Forum that care about the overall hobby in general and can see how bad this situation is. Money doesn't have to be a part of your outlook on collecting to see what a terrible and irresponsible decision this is on CGC's part.

 

A healthy hobby is good for everyone whether you spend a 10 grand a month on comics or $50...

 

Jim

[Foolkiller]

Blue Horseshoe loves CGC pressed books.

[awe4one]

Blue Horseshoe loves CGC pressed books.

 

 

I bet alot of people won't get it...

 

Jim

[drbanner]

And somewhere, someplace, J_C is smiling.

 

Maybe I'm biased b/c JC was on my grading team (even if he did quit), but I don't think he's that petty/bitter that he would be happy about something that's bad for the hobby. CGC getting into the business of pressing was never part of TGC of '04 theory anyway...

 

(Did I just defend JC?!?!? )

 

You would be surprised with what J_C actually knew, and how much of it was reluctantly held back from being shared publicly, especially near the end when he was getting mocked for even suggesting anything that would remotely resemble an off-colour comment.

 

Unfortunately, the end for JC had nothing to do with what he "actually knew" via the rumormill OR TGC...

[chrisco37]

Blue Horseshoe loves CGC pressed books.

 

 

I bet alot of people won't get it...

 

Jim

 

 

[Norrin_Radd]

Blue Horseshoe loves CGC pressed books.

 

You're crackin' me up! I love that movie.

 

 

"It's a zero-sum game... somebody wins, somebody loses. Money is not won or lost, but simply transfered... from one perception to another. And the more real it becomes, the more desperately they want it."

[Mr. Zipper]

That is the real danger to CGC and Chris setting up a pressing/conservation business. Sure pressing exists today but it is more a back-alley type deal with dealers taking part in hushed tones, and virtually no collectors submitting to CGC use it.

 

Does the front page of this site look dangerous to you? I expect CCS would present restoration in a similarly open way.

 

Interesting how some of the coins were "conserved" to remove a tiny spot - hence little difference between the before and after photos.

 

Kinda like pressing a 9.2 into a 9.6.

[FlyingDonut]

And somewhere, someplace, J_C is smiling.

 

Maybe I'm biased b/c JC was on my grading team (even if he did quit), but I don't think he's that petty/bitter that he would be happy about something that's bad for the hobby. CGC getting into the business of pressing was never part of TGC of '04 theory anyway...

 

(Did I just defend JC?!?!? )

 

You would be surprised with what J_C actually knew, and how much of it was reluctantly held back from being shared publicly, especially near the end when he was getting mocked for even suggesting anything that would remotely resemble an off-colour comment.

 

Oh, I'm sure he knew a lot. That's the essential problem I (personally) had/have with J_C. He is an exceptionally knowledgeable person on this, knows the history and buying pattern of collectibles, and would generally be welcome here, except for his stunning pomposity and total refusal to treat anybody with an opposing viewpoint with any sort of respect.

 

The stunning flame war that erupted when he stuck his nose back under the tent was one of his own making, largely over a stupid bet that he should simply pay up, coupled with his incredible abrasiveness. I'd love to hear what he knows, as it would help to connect the dots with all of this. I don't want to have the amazing [#@$%!!!] erupt again, which it will.

[THE_BEYONDER]

[

Your vision of an innocent and pure market being tainted by the attemtped legitimization of cleaning and pressing is a bit selective and rose-colored, and I still strongly maintain that almost everyone who doesn't care much about the money involved in comics could care less about whether cleaning and pressing are restoration or not. There are a few purists who care purely about the aesthetics of it, but I'm not sure I've seen one posting in this thread...

 

Once again illustrating the point that you know very little about some of the members here.

 

I have very little stake in the CGC market, and my opinions about pressing go beyond the financial realm.

 

Rather than comment on the reasons why some of us are anti -pressing, why not turn the spotlight upon yourself...and help us to understand why you hold the stance you do....

[garthgantu]

I agree with everything Brent posted here. However, if dealers stop using CGC as a service, and not just sell their inventory, then that lessened reliance on CGC to sell their books will have an impact on CGC's business. Otherwise, what incentive does CGC have to not go through with this? There is none. Although I agree somewhat about the negative impacts down the line this may have, the bottom line is that people want to maximize profits in the short term, so unless there's a universal slow down in demand for CGC books, dealers will still slab books, and collectors will still buy them.

 

Does anyone really see this changing?

 

I agree Brent's post is a good summary of the situation from a dealer's perspective. I think, however, that he's taking a longer-term view than many dealers, and certainly a longer-term view than the bean-counters at CGC / CCG who cooked up this idea. Many, many companies operate on a 'quarter-to-quarter' basis, worrying only about raising the numbers for the current or ensuing three-month period. Some of those companies end up regretting those knee-jerk decisions that might have made them some incremental $ in the near-term but harmed business down the road.

[garthgantu]

I agree here...I don't see Matt or Susan or Tracey currently advertising their services, but once CGC enters the game, it seem these other restorers will have to in order to maintain their level of business. This increased awareness of this practice will both increase the population of 9.4/9.6/9.8's, as well as make high grade buyers a little leary since they may have not even heard of this practice before.

 

A fair assessment, IMO, and here's where the problem lies: This planned association between CGC and Friesen's proposed service is just a small step from having both under the same roof. If the market accepts this initial foray into "approved pressing" what makes you think CGC won't move further in that direction? Why not simply have the pressing be a 'natural' step in the grading/encapsulation service? If you don't think someone at CCG/CGC is gleefully rubbing their hands together envisioning this outcome, I think you're in denial.

 

I don't claim to be an expert/historian of the slabbed sportscard market, but my recollection is that one of the things that led to the implosion of that market was the move (or perhaps the discovery of the move by the broad consumer base) that one or more sportscard slabbing services started offering: submit 100 cards and you're guaranteed to receive some # of 10.0s. This HAD to erod consumer confidence to some degree. "But that's just like the pre-screening that CGC already offers," you say? Not quite. There's no way to press a sportscard, far as I know, and no other way to materially improve it's condition. But in comics you can.

 

So how long before the pressing is directly under CGC's roof - after all, they claim there's nothing wrong with it, so what's the harm/conflict? - and from there, CGC can literally start taking a cut of the value of high-dollar books for "approved pressing" of those books into higher grades. "Get your pressing done with the pros at CGC - 'cause anyone else's pressing services might not get the coveted Blue label."

[shadroch]

I agree with everything Brent posted here. However, if dealers stop using CGC as a service, and not just sell their inventory, then that lessened reliance on CGC to sell their books will have an impact on CGC's business. Otherwise, what incentive does CGC have to not go through with this? There is none. Although I agree somewhat about the negative impacts down the line this may have, the bottom line is that people want to maximize profits in the short term, so unless there's a universal slow down in demand for CGC books, dealers will still slab books, and collectors will still buy them.

 

Does anyone really see this changing?

 

I agree Brent's post is a good summary of the situation from a dealer's perspective. I think, however, that he's taking a longer-term view than many dealers, and certainly a longer-term view than the bean-counters at CGC / CCG who cooked up this idea. Many, many companies operate on a 'quarter-to-quarter' basis, worrying only about raising the numbers for the current or ensuing three-month period. Some of those companies end up regretting those knee-jerk decisions that might have made them some incremental $ in the near-term but harmed business down the road.

 

 

 

A company that operates in a knee-jerk manner,caring only about its quarterly reports? Like we don't already have that in the hobby.Marvelous,simply Marvelous.

In the long,long term wouldn't almost every book,seeing how they are made of wood pulp require some sort of conservation?

You can either sell off everything now,or take a wait and see approach,as I see it.I do see the potenial for possible conflicts of interest,but until I start to see the major players making serious alterations to how they do business,I'm sitting on the sidelines.

I've got hundreds of books that could most likely be tweaked into higher grades,but havn't done them yet,and won't when Chris opens up.If its done correctly,he'll just be another restoration service,one of several.

If its done incorrectly,the market will correct itself.

Will a market correction drive some of the big spenders from the hobby? I would hope so.

[drbanner]

So how long before the pressing is directly under CGC's roof - after all, they claim there's nothing wrong with it, so what's the harm/conflict? - and from there, CGC can literally start taking a cut of the value of high-dollar books for "approved pressing" of those books into higher grades. "Get your pressing done with the pros at CGC - 'cause anyone else's pressing services might not get the coveted Blue label."

 

You're sadly mistaken if you don't think that CGC and this proposed service would already be operating "under one roof" if they are owned by the same company...

[DiceX]

I don't claim to be an expert/historian of the slabbed sportscard market, but my recollection is that one of the things that led to the implosion of that market was the move (or perhaps the discovery of the move by the broad consumer base) that one or more sportscard slabbing services started offering: submit 100 cards and you're guaranteed to receive some # of 10.0s. This HAD to erod consumer confidence to some degree.

 

You are incorrect.

Sportscards went to hell when the companies producing them flooded the market with product. The market became so saturated that the low numbered rookies, jersey cards, and autographed cards were the only thing of value, because they were the only thing that had some form of scarcity. Common cards could not be given away.

The sportscard companies saw this trend and started putting out products with a jersey/auto/graded/or numbered RC in every pack and put a MSRP of upwards of $125 per pack on them. Some were well over that price.

Smelling blood, the companies then started producing 10 to 20 different sets per sport/per season, instead of 1 to 3 sets that they had been producing in prior years.

 

The flood of "manufactured collectibles" killed the sportscard market.

Not unlike the comic crash of the '90's.