Grader Notes

[VintageComics]

Then STOP keeping notes. Who are they for?

 

The grading notes are meant to be an internal communication between graders so that they don't miss any defects. They were never really meant for public consumption, except to explain to justify grades for submitters that may be unhappy with their grades.

 

 

Then why was the info provided from the start?

 

Because they were used to explain and justify why books were given their respective grades.

 

[Mark 1]

Then the notes were intended to be used when questioned about a grade from the person who submitted the comic.

 

That's why they should be provided for free to the person who submits the comic.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Then the notes were intended to be used when questioned about a grade from the person who submitted the comic.

 

That's why they should be provided for free to the person who submits the comic.

 

 

Actually, they were intended to be internal for graders from what I understand. That use evolved to being used externally. I don't believe they were originally intended for that.

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

Then the notes were intended to be used when questioned about a grade from the person who submitted the comic.

 

That's why they should be provided for free to the person who submits the comic.

 

 

Actually, they were intended to be internal for graders from what I understand. That use evolved to being used externally. I don't believe they were originally intended for that.

 

 

 

Do you know this for sure, Roy?

 

I've read conflicting accounts of this history. Personally, I think that including some form of grading notes should be an active and ongoing part of the service CGC provides, but what do I know. From my POV this appears to be little more than a greed induced customer service "benefit" similar to what banks offer to fool customers into thinking that they're getting some special added service, but for a fee that many customers obtained before without charge.

 

The risk CGC takes doing this is difficult to measure. It could open the door to some other start-up service entering the picture which offers this as part of the overall service package. Of course CGC has the advantage of longevity and trust built into their business that a new or less reputable competitor lacks so that scenario may have already been discussed internally and ruled out.

 

 

 

 

 

[chrisco37]

Not a reply to anyone, simply a string of thoughts...

 

I have never called for grader's notes. Really. Never. Not on any book I have had graded. Not on any book someone has offered to me. Not on any book I've seen online or in an auction. I only mention this to show where my biases are.

 

If the point is to not have people call for grader's notes then why do grader's notes even exist? I don't know anyone who grades comics who notes and/or keeps records of defects on specific books other than for descriptive purposes when selling. Sellers grade books and then put some descriptions in their ad listings. But I don't think anyone keeps detailed and comprehensive notes on specific defects from every book they have ever graded. The CGC is not selling books. The CGC is not involved in any part of any transaction after the book has been graded. They are only being paid to grade the book. The graders look at the book. Each grader make notes to justify his or her grade. They confer. They arrive at a grade. The book is graded. Done. Why keep the notes?

 

So why are they keeping notes? Well there could be two reasons. The first...that their notes are an actual part of the service they are providing for fee. If that is the case then those notes should be provided to the submitter as part of the service. If the grade is dependent on the notes then the notes should be part of the grade. The submitter paid for the grade, therefore the submitter should get the notes. Or the second...that The CGC realizes that their notes could have some value. They keep the notes because they want to monetize them.

 

So it doesn't appear to me that monetizing the notes is being done to offset time and money spent answering the phone, or time and money spent entering data. If that were the case they could just stop transcribing their thought processes while grading the books. They could do what they are being paid to do, grade.

 

But since they are now using the notes to create a new revenue stream I really do have an issue. This may sound petty, but I do have a problem with The CGC making additional money off of others for notes related to a book I sent in and paid to have graded. It's not what I feel I agreed to when I submitted the book in the first place. I paid to have a book graded. End of story. If I knew that I was also sending books in to create a pile of information that could be sold at a later date for X amount of dollars I would certainly have to take that into consideration. I might still use the service, but I would want to know that information up front. I'm sure that many of you are going say "It happens all the time on the internet! That's the way things are in this information age!" And you are right. But I know that when I bid in auctions, or enter information, or buy stuff. But I didn't know that with The CGC. There are all kinds of analogies I could use here, but I hate analogies so I won't bore you. But suffice to say that I want a piece of that pie.

 

I would imagine that the vast majority of books with notes are golden age and silver age. Let's say for illustrative purposes the average cost of grading gold and silver comics is $50 per book. And let's say someone submits 500 books per year. That amounts to $25000 per year in grading fees paid to The CGC. Let's then guess that those 500 submission generate 50 requests for notes at $15 per request. That $750. 100 requests - $1500. If each book were to get a request - $7500. What if the submitter put one book up for sale on his or her web-site and that listing generated multiple request for notes. Five requests means The CGC makes more off the notes then they do off the original grading fees. That's a ton of money created for The CGC by a comic which is not owned by The CGC and from information which The CGC was paid to provide.

 

If The CGC is going to create notes then at the least the submitter should be provided with them.

 

The submitter should get a piece of the revenue created by the notes, either in submission credits or some other form of submission reductions.

 

If enough revenue is generated by requests for notes then the submission costs should be reduced on the grading tiers which contain a majority of the note generating submissions.

 

Or The CGC can just stop taking notes.

 

Good post, Richard.

 

Oh, and love how you've started using "The CGC". Nice touch!

[Aces]

At the very least, the submitter should be able to get the notes for free.

 

+1

They've already paid to have the book graded. Why should they have to pay again?

 

+ me

 

Last book I called on had no notes (an 8.5 BA non-key I submitted I thought was NM).

Wouldn't that be nice for someone to pay $15 for a blank page of nothingness.

[Aces]

The Friday thread has arrived.

 

I sense this one is going to be like a month full of Fridays.

[comicwiz]

The more I think through and attempt to rationalize this decision, and its timing, the more I wonder whether this has anything to do with eBay's recent mandate requiring coins be graded.

 

Especially if eBay uses those conditions as a template to use across other collectible categories represented by one or more grading company.

 

The last condition is interesting because it requires the grading company to provide an online resource to do lookups by serial number:

 

Enable online verification of unique serial numbers

 

If such a system were made available and allowed someone to call up any number of data points tied to the serial number, then maybe this announcement was just a way to appease this future requirement without giving away the farm.

 

More specifically, in meeting these requirements for items to be sold on eBay, this type of information could be called up by non-customers and could potentially be monetized by an external source.

 

I understand the terms of service leave no room for vagueries and for the most part should nip the problem at the bud, but who wants to inherit the problem and expense of enforcing it and/or keeping pirates and hackers at bay?

[Marty Mann]

It's official...just received from CGC..."Grading notes have gone

online for a fee based upon a three tiered fee scheme and are no

longer available via phone call.".

 

mm

[Bruno_s4]

i think it is interesting that GPA now includes a link to the cert. number page.

 

Surprised nobody commented on this as Medusanyc made an interesting find.

 

GPA has hotlinked all the serial numbers directly to CGC to show the basic information.... along with the option to BUY the notes.

 

This entire change had NOTHING to do with taking up the grader's time and slowing down the process as many other options could have been chosen to alleviate that problem.

 

This is 100% monetary. Without a doubt. They took a free service that benefited everyone and found a way to make money off it. I probably would have been okay with that if they didn't get so greedy with the prices.

 

Would love to see a response from CGC on this ordeal but not holding my breath.

[Bomber-Bob]

Then the notes were intended to be used when questioned about a grade from the person who submitted the comic.

 

That's why they should be provided for free to the person who submits the comic.

 

 

Actually, they were intended to be internal for graders from what I understand. That use evolved to being used externally. I don't believe they were originally intended for that.

 

 

Yes, I believe you are correct. Originally, in theory, the three graders viewed the book independently. In the event of a difference in grade the notes would be called upon, especially by the finalizer. I suspect the graders are now all in the same room at the same time, especially for onsite grading where there is usually no notes.

[chrisco37]

Yep. The cost is way too high.

 

If they did it for a buck, I wouldn't have a problem with it. $15-30? yeah, I'll never use the service.

 

Shame for dealers out there. I won't be looking at anymore mid-grade slabs. Too bad. I wanted to get a Timely war book sometime this year. Cross another book off my want list.

[skypinkblu]

The more I think through and attempt to rationalize this decision, and its timing, the more I wonder whether this has anything to do with eBay's recent mandate requiring coins be graded.

 

Especially if eBay uses those conditions as a template to use across other collectible categories represented by one or more grading company.

 

The last condition is interesting because it requires the grading company to provide an online resource to do lookups by serial number:

 

Enable online verification of unique serial numbers

 

If such a system were made available and allowed someone to call up any number of data points tied to the serial number, then maybe this announcement was just a way to appease this future requirement without giving away the farm.

 

More specifically, in meeting these requirements for items to be sold on eBay, this type of information could be called up by non-customers and could potentially be monetized by an external source.

 

I understand the terms of service leave no room for vagueries and for the most part should nip the problem at the bud, but who wants to inherit the problem and expense of enforcing it and/or keeping pirates and hackers at bay?

 

It looks like CGC would not be able to fit eBay requirements when it comes to comics, unless eBay changes them totally....

 

The standards companies must meet under the updated coins policy are as follows:

- At least 50,000 coins graded (pre-1956)

 

- Live, online population report

 

- At least 3 graders on staff who are considered numismatic experts (an individual who has been a full-time numismatist for at least five years). At least one of the graders should be a member of PNG, and all three should be members of the American Numismatic Association (ANA)

 

What comic book association would qualify?

 

- Stated buyback guaranty in writing for coins later determined to be counterfeit, damaged, over- or mis-graded, or misattributed

 

As it stands, the guarantee is only good while the slab is still sealed, and there is no "buyback" policy.

- Coins being slabbed must be kept in a unique, state-of-the-art, tamper-resistant holder with anti-counterfeiting measures (e.g.; holograms). Archival materials should be used wherever possible

 

- Enable online verification of unique serial numbers

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

My favorite part of the Grader's Notes Press release on the website:

 

*Introductory pricing. Discounts do not apply.

 

Meaning, $30 might seem like a lot now, but it'll look like a bargain in a few years.

 

[Marty Mann]

CGC Grader Notes Disclaimer:

"The use of any such content for commercial purposes is

expressly forbidden.".

 

mm

[Peter Loves Gwen]

CGC Grader Notes Disclaimer:

"The use of any such content for commercial purposes is

expressly forbidden.".

 

mm

 

Do you mean like they are using them commercially(and didn't pay for them)?

[comicwiz]

The more I think through and attempt to rationalize this decision, and its timing, the more I wonder whether this has anything to do with eBay's recent mandate requiring coins be graded.

 

Especially if eBay uses those conditions as a template to use across other collectible categories represented by one or more grading company.

 

The last condition is interesting because it requires the grading company to provide an online resource to do lookups by serial number:

 

Enable online verification of unique serial numbers

 

If such a system were made available and allowed someone to call up any number of data points tied to the serial number, then maybe this announcement was just a way to appease this future requirement without giving away the farm.

 

More specifically, in meeting these requirements for items to be sold on eBay, this type of information could be called up by non-customers and could potentially be monetized by an external source.

 

I understand the terms of service leave no room for vagueries and for the most part should nip the problem at the bud, but who wants to inherit the problem and expense of enforcing it and/or keeping pirates and hackers at bay?

 

It looks like CGC would not be able to fit eBay requirements when it comes to comics, unless eBay changes them totally....

 

The standards companies must meet under the updated coins policy are as follows:

- At least 50,000 coins graded (pre-1956)

 

- Live, online population report

 

- At least 3 graders on staff who are considered numismatic experts (an individual who has been a full-time numismatist for at least five years). At least one of the graders should be a member of PNG, and all three should be members of the American Numismatic Association (ANA)

 

What comic book association would qualify?

 

- Stated buyback guaranty in writing for coins later determined to be counterfeit, damaged, over- or mis-graded, or misattributed

 

As it stands, the guarantee is only good while the slab is still sealed, and there is no "buyback" policy.

- Coins being slabbed must be kept in a unique, state-of-the-art, tamper-resistant holder with anti-counterfeiting measures (e.g.; holograms). Archival materials should be used wherever possible

 

- Enable online verification of unique serial numbers

 

Good points Sharon. Although given Halperin's numismatic resume and shareholding involvement with CGC, I'm sure the PNG condition could be applied less strictly, and/or rewritten to remark the graders involvement as OSPG advisors. As for the buyback policy, they've got precedent with the Ewart scandal.

[etanick]

I guess if I paid for grader notes on one book and sell that book, passing along that notes down the chain of ownerships is viewed as piracy if I decided to charge $1 for the notes I paid $30 originally?

[comicwiz]

I guess if I paid for grader notes on one book and sell that book, passing along that notes down the chain of ownerships is viewed as piracy if I decided to charge $1 for the notes I paid $30 originally?

 

Having a separate cost for the notes, no matter whether it's $1 or full price, would be against the terms of service.

 

That said, I'm fairly certain what will happen is that sellers will try to recuperate their costs by incorporating the fee into the sale of the slab.

[MrBedrock]

CGC Grader Notes Disclaimer:

"The use of any such content for commercial purposes is

expressly forbidden.".

 

mm

If someone wants to test a theory...

1 - Submit a book for grading

2 - After encapsulation purchase the notes

3 - Offer the book for sale and offer to sell the notes for an additional fee

4 - Wait for correspondence from The CGC

5 - Show this correspondence to your lawyer, adviser, and/or any passerby on the street

6 - Enjoy for the riotous laughter