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Grader Notes

1,754 posts in this topic

Fortunately, I got the brains and the looks.

Well you breast fed until you graduated college.

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I dont get that people dont get that the notes are a BYPRODUCT of the grade we buy! we dont own the notes, doodles or water cooler discussions about our books while at the CGC!

 

You pay for a grade. period.

 

Whatever CGC does internally to decide on the grade is their business and property.... UNLESS you come to terms with the CGC for that info (the notes) and, now -- CGC has told us what the terms will be: $30 bucks and down.

 

why is this so hard? youre arguing the wrong end of this thing. Its the prices not the concept that is wrong.

 

the NOTES are CGC INTERNAL MEMOS.

always have been.

But the notes are a byproduct of property owned by us, which was submitted to them for a fee to be evaluated. As such there is some gray area as to The CGC's right to sell the notes. It is not as cut and dried as you want it to appear. And The CGC could have an expensive and time consuming ordeal ahead of themselves in trying to justify their position.

 

If you hired someone to cater a meal for you, does that mean that you own the recipes they used to make it?

Nope. Bad analogy, and you know how I hate analogies. But if I hire a home inspector I own the whole inspection.

 

lol Bad analogy because it doesn't produce the desired outcome.

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Would the grader notes be considered intellectual property and thus be copyrighted? Is there some other way CGC could legally prevent someone from dispensing info that was purchased (grader notes)?

 

It is more like the disclaimer that the NFL uses. You can tape the game and watch it in your home, hell even invite some people over to watch it. But don't broadcast it on the side of a building and charge people admission.

I like this analogy. The graders' notes are akin to the written description of the game. We're the NFL. You're Jerry Jones.
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If you hired someone to cater a meal for you, does that mean that you own the recipes they used to make it?

Nope. Bad analogy, and you know how I hate analogies. But if I hire a home inspector I own the whole inspection.

 

lol Bad analogy because it doesn't produce the desired outcome.

Alas, it does. If I hire a home appraiser or inspector, I'm asking for an end product: the report with a monetary figure or condition report. Regardless of the depth of the analysis, it's my house they're describing. That information (the description) has murky ownership at best. One the one hand, it wouldn't exist but for the inspector/appraiser putting pen to paper. On the other, you're conveying non-public information about my property. Absent an express release from the homeowner, how comfortable would you be allowing the inspector/appraiser to create and sell a database of those descriptions?

 

Richard goes one step further, alleging that the determinative factors for creating the report are part of the bargain between the inspector and the client. That is, the report's not complete unless they're included. Ergo, they belong the to the client as part of what was paid for.

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Alas, it does. If I hire home appraiser or inspector, I'm asking for an end product: the report with a monetary figure or condition report. Regardless of the depth of the analysis, it's my house they're describing. That information (the description) has murky ownership at best. One the one hand, it wouldn't exist but for the inspector/appraiser putting pen to paper. On the other, you're conveying non-public information about my property. Absent an express release from the homeowner, how comfortable would you be allowing the inspector/appraiser to create and sell a database of those descriptions?

 

This is a cogent and salient point delivered sans sarcasm and snarkiness. It will take me some to process, as it came from you.

 

Richard goes one step further, alleging that the determinative factors for creating the report are part of the bargain between the inspector and the client. That is, the report's not complete unless they're included. Ergo, they belong the to the client as part of what was paid for.

 

This part i still have problems with, as it would seem to require Richard's receipt of whatever work papers, notes etc. the appraiser used to produce the report, and those could include proprietary processes and procedures that the appraiser has the right to retain.

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If you hired someone to cater a meal for you, does that mean that you own the recipes they used to make it?

Nope. Bad analogy, and you know how I hate analogies. But if I hire a home inspector I own the whole inspection.

 

lol Bad analogy because it doesn't produce the desired outcome.

Alas, it does. If I hire home appraiser or inspector, I'm asking for an end product: the report with a monetary figure or condition report. Regardless of the depth of the analysis, it's my house they're describing. That information (the description) has murky ownership at best. One the one hand, it wouldn't exist but for the inspector/appraiser putting pen to paper. On the other, you're conveying non-public information about my property. Absent an express release from the homeowner, how comfortable would you be allowing the inspector/appraiser to create and sell a database of those descriptions?

 

Richard goes one step further, alleging that the determinative factors for creating the report are part of the bargain between the inspector and the client. That is, the report's not complete unless they're included. Ergo, they belong the to the client as part of what was paid for.

I'll take it even a step further. The hobby as a whole established the groundwork for the criteria that The CGC uses to create their inspection. There are board members, myself included, who were involved in the original ideas used by The CGC to create their guidelines. In a way we, I'm talking each and every one of us, help to tweek those guidelines on a daily basis with our critiques of grades given by The CGC. So we help in developing the process, we own the books, we submit our books and pay their fees for our inspections, and our books are cause for the notes created by our inspections which are based on our criteria (remember, if The CGC followed a set of rules to grade with no credence given to the accepted grading standards of the hobby no one would use it...just ask The PGX). We own the notes.

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As for the ban on commercial uses, I'm inclined to give CGC the benefit of the doubt. My guess is it's meant to stop GPA-type services from aggregating the graders' note into a database which could then be sold or given away to the public. The end result would be a decrease in the value of the CGC database/service.

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If you hired someone to cater a meal for you, does that mean that you own the recipes they used to make it?

Nope. Bad analogy, and you know how I hate analogies. But if I hire a home inspector I own the whole inspection.

 

lol Bad analogy because it doesn't produce the desired outcome.

Alas, it does. If I hire home appraiser or inspector, I'm asking for an end product: the report with a monetary figure or condition report. Regardless of the depth of the analysis, it's my house they're describing. That information (the description) has murky ownership at best. One the one hand, it wouldn't exist but for the inspector/appraiser putting pen to paper. On the other, you're conveying non-public information about my property. Absent an express release from the homeowner, how comfortable would you be allowing the inspector/appraiser to create and sell a database of those descriptions?

 

Richard goes one step further, alleging that the determinative factors for creating the report are part of the bargain between the inspector and the client. That is, the report's not complete unless they're included. Ergo, they belong the to the client as part of what was paid for.

 

The ownership of the grading notes is not clear, but it is inferred that CGC owns them. I don't dispute that they own them, but they could easily make it clear(and should if they are smart), by expressing it in the submission forms. Up until now it's been an assumption. If it's not mentioned on the submission forms, there is room to debate it.

 

But it still comes down to the fact that the notes have been free for as long as CGC has been in business. Changing it from free, to a huge fee, is a huge deal. The big question is why create any fee, and why now?

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But it's not clear if they would view them as being freely available from the purchaser of said notes. That stands true even if just meant to be used by the seller of a book.

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the appraiser analogy is not completely fair, thoufgh its sounds perfect.

 

IF a house appraiser need only come up with a grade from 1 to 10.0 the analogy would be perfect. But the appraisers product that you are buying IS the notes in a full report, flaw by flaw.

 

We have always just bough the NUMBER, and occasionally became curious about the notes after the fact.

 

2 different products.

 

if Cgc (um, THE CGC) had been selling us a written description of the flaws of our books then we might own those notes/descriptions. But they have stated for a decade that we would get a GRADE not a description of how they determined that grade.

 

I cant tell if you guys really believe you have been buying the notes all along, or just arguing as such to negotiate with CGC? In any case, lets have some lawyers chime in. We might need them if you think this is the best approach.

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the appraiser analogy is not completely fair, thoufgh its sounds perfect.

 

IF a house appraiser need only come up with a grade from 1 to 10.0 the analogy would be perfect. But the appraisers product that you are buying IS the notes in a full report, flaw by flaw.

 

We have always just bough the NUMBER, and occasionally became curious about the notes after the fact.

 

2 different products.

 

if Cgc (um, THE CGC) had been selling us a written description of the flaws of our books then we might own those notes/descriptions. But they have stated for a decade that we would get a GRADE not a description of how they determined that grade.

 

I cant tell if you guys really believe you have been buying the notes all along, or just arguing as such to negotiate with CGC? In any case, lets have some lawyers chime in. We might need them if you think this is the best approach.

 

What the are me and Transplant, chopped liver? Maybe you can get FFB or tth2 to chime in and they will have the chops you require.

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In any case, lets have some lawyers chime in. We might need them if you think this is the best approach.

 

What the are me and Transplant, chopped liver? Maybe you can get FFB or tth2 to chime in and they will have the chops you require.

 

lol

 

 

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The CGC GRADER NOTES DISCLAIMER says:

"The customer may view, copy, print out and use the

content solely for your personal use, provided that the

content is used for informational and non commercial

purposes only.".

 

mm

 

 

So, if we define "customer" as meaning anyone who purchases, excuse me, rents the grading notes, and "your personal use" as making those notes available to a potential customer who desires additional information about a slabbed book would that constitute the legal use of grading notes?

 

hm

 

If the grading notes are considered independently authored work for which CGC assumes no liability then how do intellectual property laws with boiler plate weasel-words disclaimers apply? Are the grading notes proprietary corporate property, independently arrived at work-product or something more akin to an appraisal? (shrug)

 

Lots of questions come to mind, but few answers that anyone can bank on except for almost unanimous agreement about the inordinately excessive charges.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What the *spoon* are me and Transplant, chopped liver? Maybe you can get FFB or tth2 to chime in and they will have the chops you require.
Not to mention, the nature of the service bargained for has little to do with who owns the intellectual property of any description of the book's condition.

 

How about this? I hire an exterminator or a cleaning service. They need to observe the general layout of my house so as to be able to navigate it to provide their service. Does that entitle them to create a database containing non-public descriptions of my house or others'?

 

I've called for notes on less than 20 books in the 5 years I've collected slabs, but I have called on both my books and others'. And I'm a {shudder} lawyer, too. Does that mean my opinion is now valid? :baiting:

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the appraiser analogy is not completely fair, thoufgh its sounds perfect.

 

IF a house appraiser need only come up with a grade from 1 to 10.0 the analogy would be perfect. But the appraisers product that you are buying IS the notes in a full report, flaw by flaw.

 

We have always just bough the NUMBER, and occasionally became curious about the notes after the fact.

 

2 different products.

 

if Cgc (um, THE CGC) had been selling us a written description of the flaws of our books then we might own those notes/descriptions. But they have stated for a decade that we would get a GRADE not a description of how they determined that grade.

 

I cant tell if you guys really believe you have been buying the notes all along, or just arguing as such to negotiate with CGC? In any case, lets have some lawyers chime in. We might need them if you think this is the best approach.

 

What the are me and Transplant, chopped liver? Maybe you can get FFB or tth2 to chime in and they will have the chops you require.

 

snob-014.gif

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