Grader Notes

[Cat-Man_America]

@Mxwll Smrt - could CGC claim that the fee covers labour, administrative and storage (archiving) costs, enabling an on-demand service of recalling graders notes from that archive?

 

Jumping back in for a few posts (man, this thread keeps Rollin'). My ...

 

They could, but then they would probably be asked to explain why they've given the notes out for free all these years and now find it necessary to levy a tiered fee to boot.

 

Explaining the new charge would probably be the easiest part of the claim to prove. A directive under new management. Outsourcing the "technical management" as the demands on doing it in-house became too unmanageable, costly and became a drain on resources. I'm sure with NGC as the parent, there are a number of creative ways for them to back things up on paper, even if the basis of the change is intended to explore a new revenue stream to offset the revenue losses from providing it "free" for the past decade.

 

True, but that would be seen by many as an excuse, not an explanation. If this decision to charge for notes on-line were being made because of valuable time lost discussing individual grades with clients then CGC should be able to demonstrate how it is an efficiency measure (cost saving). Granted, setting up a data base and outsourcing the management of it might produce additional costs, but given the labor saving aspect of doing it all on-line those costs should be negligible compared to the exorbitant multi-tiered fee system now in place.

 

Also, if CGC were merely putting together a data base for clients for easier access that lessens the grader's work load, their new system fails epically. The only way it would be useful for a modest fee or subscription is if it were an automated data-base quickly accessible on-line, which it isn't. The new multi-tiered system, from what is being reported by those trying to use it, is less practical due to the delays accessing the notes after purchase and apparently still requires grader involvement to locate, decipher and download the information.

 

What conclusions would you draw from that?

 

 

[chrisco37]

Buyers have never asked me for grading notes on a CGC graded book.

 

 

 

That's b/c we used to be able to call.

 

A case in point (and, since you and Evans are the only dealers responding in this thread, I'll use an example with you)....

 

A few years back, you had a DD#16 on your site. The book was an 8.5, but it looked better than that from the scans. I wanted to know what the notes were to make sure it didn't have any interior "deal-breakers" for me. I called CGC right after I first contacted you about the book for b/c scan (which, of course, you sent immediately). They gave me the notes, no "deal-breaker" defects. I called you and bought the book.

 

Another example...as I said earlier in this thread, recently I was thinking of buying a Timely war book. Metro had a few on their site that fit the bill. One, in particular. I called for the notes. It had a loose centerfold. I passed. It cost me nothing. Now, I'd have to pay $15 (or more) to find out that a book I am interested in has a deal-breaker defect. No thanks. Looks like I won't be buying anything.

[Ogami]

Buyers have never asked me for grading notes on a CGC graded book.

 

 

 

That's b/c we used to be able to call.

 

A case in point (and, since you and Evans are the only dealers responding in this thread, I'll use an example with you)....

 

A few years back, you had a DD#16 on your site. The book was an 8.5, but it looked better than that from the scans. I wanted to know what the notes were to make sure it didn't have any interior "deal-breakers" for me. I called CGC right after I first contacted you about the book for b/c scan (which, of course, you sent immediately). They gave me the notes, no "deal-breaker" defects. I called you and bought the book.

 

Another example...as I said earlier in this thread, recently I was thinking of buying a Timely war book. Metro had a few on their site that fit the bill. One, in particular. I called for the notes. It had a loose centerfold. I passed. It cost me nothing. Now, I'd have to pay $15 (or more) to find out that a book I am interested in has a deal-breaker defect. No thanks. Looks like I won't be buying anything.

 

Just quoting for effect.

 

Dealers beware. This change DOES affect your bottom line.

[evi1pau1]

I want to agree with Mxwll Smrt, but I have the receipt from my (recent ) SS sub at the London con, I signed it..and on the back of it are the T's & C's. (same as on the website)

 

I didn't know at the time that information gained by 'the company' during the service I paid for could be commercialised, but it now has.(or will be when they get round to grading my book) Did I consent to this? no, not explicitly..but the small print says I did.

 

10. Company compiles data regarding, and makes digital images of, items submitted for Services. In partial consideration for the performance of Services by Company pursuant to this Submission Form, Customer hereby authorizes Company to compile such data and make such images and agrees that Company shall have an irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free right and license to use and commercialize such data and images for any purpose.

 

12. The laws of Florida without regard to its choice of law principles shall apply to transactions and/or disputes between Company and any Customer. Each Customer agrees to (1) the exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute of the state and/or federal courts located in, or serving Sarasota County, Florida; (2) not challenge such jurisdiction or venue; and (3) accept service by certified or registered mail.

 

Will it stand up in court? no idea. someone talk to a no win no fee lawyer please.

 

If all info gained during the grading process (notes, scans etc) was freely available I would be happy. I'm miffed that they will now charge a) me (already paid them) and b) any prospective buyers in future to get the details I am paying for in the first place.

[WEBHEAD]

Bottom line for me when you send a book in to be restored, it comes back restored with a complete list of every thing that was done to it. When I decided to send a book out to PGX just to see what it was about, they noted on the slab the defect. Personally I feel CGC should have always slabbed the book, but included a summary of defects . However since they wanted to keep their grading standards (even if they were sorta Oversteet) a secret so providing these notes to the comic world would have allowed us to crack the code. it would allow us to challenge them right away but since some grading is subjective who knows if the dispute would stand up.

 

I'm not so unhappy about the $5 for economy but I would pay them the $5 up front just to include them.

 

Question if you could pay the fee for the notes along with thesubmission fee would you do it?

 

[comicwiz]

@Mxwll Smrt - could CGC claim that the fee covers labour, administrative and storage (archiving) costs, enabling an on-demand service of recalling graders notes from that archive?

 

Jumping back in for a few posts (man, this thread keeps Rollin'). My ...

 

They could, but then they would probably be asked to explain why they've given the notes out for free all these years and now find it necessary to levy a tiered fee to boot.

 

Explaining the new charge would probably be the easiest part of the claim to prove. A directive under new management. Outsourcing the "technical management" as the demands on doing it in-house became too unmanageable, costly and became a drain on resources. I'm sure with NGC as the parent, there are a number of creative ways for them to back things up on paper, even if the basis of the change is intended to explore a new revenue stream to offset the revenue losses from providing it "free" for the past decade.

 

True, but that would be seen by many as an excuse, not an explanation. If this decision to charge for notes on-line were being made because of valuable time lost discussing individual grades with clients then CGC should be able to demonstrate how it is an efficiency measure (cost saving). Granted, setting up a data base and outsourcing the management of it might produce additional costs, but given the labor saving aspect of doing it all on-line those costs should be negligible compared to the exorbitant multi-tiered fee system now in place.

 

Also, if CGC were merely putting together a data base for clients for easier access that lessens the grader's work load, their new system fails epically. The only way it would be useful for a modest fee or subscription is if it were an automated data-base quickly accessible on-line, which it isn't. The new multi-tiered system, from what is being reported by those trying to use it, is less practical due to the delays accessing the notes after purchase and apparently still requires grader involvement to locate, decipher and download the information.

 

What conclusions would you draw from that?

 

 

I hear you. But consider that you had X amount of graders whose duties used to involve providing graders notes over the phone. Those graders are still employed with CGC, except the duty/responsibility was devolved to an outsourcing company. Handing that "job" to a different entity could justify that cost increase alone as the company now still has the same head count and cost to employ those graders, plus the cost of outsourcing the job. And as far as the "outsourcing" aspect, I once worked for a company whose parent owned the graphic design company they used for design work, and on paper the company was "outsourced" even though they operated in the same building and were two doors down from the parent.

 

Anyhow, this might be just one of many reasons/excuses they could come up with, and short of the rising temperatures this fee is sure to generate from long-time and future customers, they could use the reason that "they felt like it" and I'm really not sure anyone could tell them they can't do it.

[B-Smooth]

As someone who de-slabs every CGC-graded book I buy to read and add to my collection (thereby reducing its liquidity), I figured I'd throw out a few comments about my usage of the graders' notes:

 

- Depending on my buying patterns, I may not call the CGC for six months, but then call them five times in two weeks to get graders' notes for a group of books I'm interested in buying.

 

- I've called for notes on books that range in price from $50 to $1,500.

 

- My goal is to minimize the risk of buying a book that has flaws that bother me, and ideally want to avoid de-slabbing a book, finding a flaw that bothers me and then either having to sell it raw (most likely at a loss) or pay to have it re-slabbed.

 

- When graders' notes are available, they've often been vary valuable in alerting me to detached or rusty staples, stains, smudges and other defects that would keep me from buying a book if I were looking at a raw copy.

 

With all of the above noted, I'd gladly pay a monthly or annual fee for unlimited access to the graders' notes. I'd even be willing to pay the per-book fee, but it would have to be less than $5 per book.

I do the same and totally agree with these statements

 

Ditto.

[comicwiz]

Buyers have never asked me for grading notes on a CGC graded book.

 

 

 

That's b/c we used to be able to call.

 

A case in point (and, since you and Evans are the only dealers responding in this thread, I'll use an example with you)....

 

A few years back, you had a DD#16 on your site. The book was an 8.5, but it looked better than that from the scans. I wanted to know what the notes were to make sure it didn't have any interior "deal-breakers" for me. I called CGC right after I first contacted you about the book for b/c scan (which, of course, you sent immediately). They gave me the notes, no "deal-breaker" defects. I called you and bought the book.

 

Another example...as I said earlier in this thread, recently I was thinking of buying a Timely war book. Metro had a few on their site that fit the bill. One, in particular. I called for the notes. It had a loose centerfold. I passed. It cost me nothing. Now, I'd have to pay $15 (or more) to find out that a book I am interested in has a deal-breaker defect. No thanks. Looks like I won't be buying anything.

 

Just quoting for effect.

 

Dealers beware. This change DOES affect your bottom line.

 

I was essentially saying the exact same thing and was relegated to the category of high maintenance buyer from SOT

[comicwiz]

I want to agree with Mxwll Smrt, but I have the receipt from my (recent ) SS sub at the London con, I signed it..and on the back of it are the T's & C's. (same as on the website)

 

I didn't know at the time that information gained by 'the company' during the service I paid for could be commercialised, but it now has.(or will be when they get round to grading my book) Did I consent to this? no, not explicitly..but the small print says I did.

 

10. Company compiles data regarding, and makes digital images of, items submitted for Services. In partial consideration for the performance of Services by Company pursuant to this Submission Form, Customer hereby authorizes Company to compile such data and make such images and agrees that Company shall have an irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free right and license to use and commercialize such data and images for any purpose.

 

12. The laws of Florida without regard to its choice of law principles shall apply to transactions and/or disputes between Company and any Customer. Each Customer agrees to (1) the exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute of the state and/or federal courts located in, or serving Sarasota County, Florida; (2) not challenge such jurisdiction or venue; and (3) accept service by certified or registered mail.

 

Will it stand up in court? no idea. someone talk to a no win no fee lawyer please.

 

If all info gained during the grading process (notes, scans etc) was freely available I would be happy. I'm miffed that they will now charge a) me (already paid them) and b) any prospective buyers in future to get the details I am paying for in the first place.

 

I have submission form with a © 2009 Comics Guaranty, LLC - these terms/conditions are nowhere to be found.

 

Seeing this was the last submission I made (technically it was a reholdering to replace a poorly sealed inner well from a submission made several months prior), I wonder for any books submitted using CGC's past forms whose terms/conditions were absent of these updated data policies, if I can ask:

 

1) to have the notes sent to me, and upon receipt of the notes;

 

2) to have the notes destroyed

[MCMiles]

Buyers have never asked me for grading notes on a CGC graded book.

 

 

 

That's b/c we used to be able to call.

 

A case in point (and, since you and Evans are the only dealers responding in this thread, I'll use an example with you)....

 

A few years back, you had a DD#16 on your site. The book was an 8.5, but it looked better than that from the scans. I wanted to know what the notes were to make sure it didn't have any interior "deal-breakers" for me. I called CGC right after I first contacted you about the book for b/c scan (which, of course, you sent immediately). They gave me the notes, no "deal-breaker" defects. I called you and bought the book.

 

Another example...as I said earlier in this thread, recently I was thinking of buying a Timely war book. Metro had a few on their site that fit the bill. One, in particular. I called for the notes. It had a loose centerfold. I passed. It cost me nothing. Now, I'd have to pay $15 (or more) to find out that a book I am interested in has a deal-breaker defect. No thanks. Looks like I won't be buying anything.

 

Just quoting for effect.

 

Dealers beware. This change DOES affect your bottom line.

 

I was essentially saying the exact same thing and was relegated to the category of high maintenance buyer from SOT

 

I agree with you. I have only ever called for graders notes to make sure there were not interior or hidden defects, or to use your words personal "deal breakers"

 

It's safer to say (especially when buying on-line or from a scan) that if a book looks sharp for the grade, I'll assume it's tan or has a clear stain or some other possible drawback, and will probably avoid the purchase.

 

Although I will buy a book based on "upgrade potential" I've never called for notes for that reason.

[Larryw7]

CGC's decision to sell grader notes can best be described with a simple picture

 

 

Just to be clear, we would be the cow in this picture and CGC would be the guy smiling.

 

I found the photo of the cow from the front.

 

 

[Boba]

Gee how smart is CGC. Here are a bunch of lawyers debating the legality of their new graders notes policy for free. Instead of paying an army of lawyers they can sit back and watch. Pretty slick

[mndb369]

 

[Boba]

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN,

 

ALL PERSON(S) PARTICIPATING IN THIS THREAD ARE HEREBY SUMMONED TO CGC HEADQUARTERS / SARASOTA, FLORIDA FOR A VIGOROUS AND SUBSTANTIAL GROUP SPANKING ON JULY 4th 2012.

[Mxwll Smrt]

One of my comments, one of the main one's was that I didn't believe the "irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free right and license to use and commercialize such data and images for any purpose" would hold in court.

 

A non-exclusive license can be revoked/ terminated.

[VintageComics]

Buyers have never asked me for grading notes on a CGC graded book.

 

 

 

That's b/c we used to be able to call.

 

A case in point (and, since you and Evans are the only dealers responding in this thread, I'll use an example with you)....

 

A few years back, you had a DD#16 on your site. The book was an 8.5, but it looked better than that from the scans. I wanted to know what the notes were to make sure it didn't have any interior "deal-breakers" for me. I called CGC right after I first contacted you about the book for b/c scan (which, of course, you sent immediately). They gave me the notes, no "deal-breaker" defects. I called you and bought the book.

 

Another example...as I said earlier in this thread, recently I was thinking of buying a Timely war book. Metro had a few on their site that fit the bill. One, in particular. I called for the notes. It had a loose centerfold. I passed. It cost me nothing. Now, I'd have to pay $15 (or more) to find out that a book I am interested in has a deal-breaker defect. No thanks. Looks like I won't be buying anything.

 

Just quoting for effect.

 

Dealers beware. This change DOES affect your bottom line.

 

I think dealers realize the implications.

 

Like I said earlier in the thread, I've already spoken to a few dealers who are not happy about the change. Any reason a customer has to NOT buy a comic is not a good reason for dealers, specifically those of us who primarily sell slabbed books. I think CGC is going to be fielding lots of phone calls with big submittors/dealers about the new charges.

 

I don't think anyone will disagree that CGC was formed during the boom of the internet marketplace. They've always been touted as a service that helped facilitate online comic book transactions (sales, trades, etc). That was the whole reason behind their inception.

 

This is the first move made by CGC (price increases for grading notwithstanding as those are standard in any market) where CGC took the ease out of online buying (the entire reason they were brought into existence) and created a roadblock for buyers forcing them to pay for information.

 

The entire burden of facilitating the transaction was originally the burden of the seller (to pay fees, market the book, scan it, etc). Now the new grading note fees force the buyer to become actively involved and pay a fee to facilitate the transaction. That's akin walking into a retail store and being charged a fee to thoroughly inspect a product before you buy it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love CGC and think they are invaluable in the marketplace but CGC has somehow lost sight of it's role in the marketplace as a facilitator of online transactions.

 

Since comics have much more than just an outside front and back like stamps, coins, paper money, cards or photographs I think that is what most people are upset about.

 

 

[Transplant]

12. The laws of Florida without regard to its choice of law principles shall apply to transactions and/or disputes between Company and any Customer. Each Customer agrees to (1) the exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute of the state and/or federal courts located in, or serving Sarasota County, Florida; (2) not challenge such jurisdiction or venue; and (3) accept service by certified or registered mail.[/size]

I think Mxwl Smrt and Bedrock and others have raised good points as to whether the T&C#10 would be applicable and/or hold up in court. But I wanted to jump in and say #12 is far less likely to.

 

I'm pretty sure that if my book was graded in Chicago or Philly on-site, there's no way a court is going to require me to apply Florida law or go to a Florida court to seek relief. This is standard boilerplate stuff in contracts. But, especially like here, where it's boilerplate and not negotiated at all, the drafter of the agreement is going to have a harder time with such choice of law or venue clauses. The provision to "not challenge such jurisdiction or venue" just makes me chuckle. That's like having a clause to not "allege any breach by CGC" in a contract. The only way to know it stands is to challenge it. And then what?

[hockey&comicsguy]

Don't get me wrong, I love CGC and think they are invaluable in the marketplace but CGC has somehow lost sight of it's role in the marketplace as a facilitator of online transactions.

 

 

Bluntly speaking, I don't think they give a $(*!@#% about their role as facilitators of online transactions. My guess is they are simply interested in being profitable (which they should). If I were them I'd only be concerned about the dollars I can actually trace coming in and going out. I get what you're saying and I understand how it benefits them. But you can't pinpoint those dollars so in my mind, they don't exist.

[VintageComics]

Don't get me wrong, I love CGC and think they are invaluable in the marketplace but CGC has somehow lost sight of it's role in the marketplace as a facilitator of online transactions.

 

 

Bluntly speaking, I don't think they give a $(*!@#% about their role as facilitators of online transactions. My guess is they are simply interested in being profitable (which they should). If I were them I'd only be concerned about the dollars I can actually trace coming in and going out. I get what you're saying and I understand how it benefits them. But you can't pinpoint those dollars so in my mind, they don't exist.

 

I can't speak for whether they do or do not care (well, I would say that most employees do as they are good people) but I can tell you that you can care and also remain profitable. Only being concerned about the dollars is short lived.

 

That is the secret behind the lasting success of any business beyond just a stone's throw.

 

 

 

 

[Davenport]

CGC should commission celebrity graders. Have them mark notes ON the books.

 

Simplify. A package deal: graders + grader's notes + autographs + sig series holder. Maybe toss in an 8X10 glossy...

 

Genius.