Opinions on the Evils of Trimming

[FineCollector]

Scissored booked are easy to detect, there's always a curl to at least one of the snips. Books that pass through a guillotine are harder to detect unless there are other defects. Creases or dents that start on a sharp edge without having any effect on the edge make me very suspicious. Fold a piece of paper, and look closely: the edge has a little more character than the rest of the crease. So too should the comic.

 

Personally, I balk at a lot of trimmed or potentially trimmed books. If I'm not sure, I'll walk away because I don't buy high end books, and there are always other copies out there. It's been defaced, let it be someone else's problem.

 

Montreal was rife with trimmed books back in the day. Gerry Ross and another malcontent whose name I don't recall were apparently prolific trimmers, although that was before my time, and I've never caught him with one.

[dupont2005]

If disclosed trimming makes the value of a comic plummet, that should in theory discourage trimming, not selling undisclosed books.

 

I think those who sell undisclosed trimmed comics were going to do so either way, it's why the book was trimmed in the first place, right?

 

"I trimmed this 5.0, now it's a 6.0!"

 

Not

"I trimmed this 5.0, now it's a 3.0 but looks better!"

 

That has never been the motivation behind trimming.

[Doohickamabob]

Since you asked, I don't like trimming because I have the sense that most of the books that were trimmed were done so with the primary motivation being to deceptively make the book appear newer and better cared for than it really was.

 

I can picture somebody out there with trimming equipment, thinking to himself, "Heh heh! Heh heh! I'm going to make big bucks on resale after I trim this comic! And nobody will be the wiser! Heh heh!" Then BRRRRZZZZZZT! "Just a little off the top! Woo hoo, I can see the dollar signs already!" The book has the taint of having been mis-treated. Part of the appeal of comic books is the nostalgia and the recollection of carefree youthful days enjoying stories and such. A trimmed book reduces that.

 

I also don't like trimming because it irreparably alters the book; it effectively chops away something that can never be returned or repaired. On a gut level, this seems like a completely asinine thing to do

 

All of that aside, there's another reason I don't like trimming: When it is detectable, even slightly detectable, it doesn't look very good. The edges of the cover art and the interior panels are not extraneous -- they frame the image. They give it compositional balance and breathing room. They give you a blank spot to place your thumb when you're holding the book or flipping through the pages. When interior panels are unnaturally close to the edge of the paper, unless it's a production flaw, it looks wrong. When the colophon is cut off or the "Xela" is cut half-way in the letters, or the little detailed foliage or flagpole or whatever on the right side is cut out of the image, it's that much less awesome. Yes, sometimes that happens naturally due to production issues, and you roll with it. There's no reason anybody should cause it on purpose, though.

[kav]

You don't polish old coins to make em look shinier either

[Lazyboy]

I just think trimming is altering the way the book is supposed to be, I don't like tape either. Plus if you unknowingly buy a trimmed book and go CGC route you end up with a book worth about 25% to 33% of its value.

 

Case and point just recently happened to me. So you have press and clean fee, tier fee, shipping both ways and paypal fees. Then it comes back plod Ended up selling it to lose @$150. Lucky it was not a real high dollar book to start with

 

 

 

 

 

That is very sad to me, on that book especially.

Really? The miswrap bothers me more than the tiny bit of paper that it apparently lost.

[VintageComics]

Trimming is evil. Those who trim are evil.

 

What I would actually do is hammer the hell out of a trimmed book rather than give it a higher apparent grade. The book has lost paper and it was not due to production.

What does "production" have to do with anything anymore? I though that despised 'purist' outlook got tossed out about a decade back?

 

The graded hobby now thrives off post-manipulation "apparent" looks-as-if higher grades, and (your words) it was not due to production.

 

And so it begins...

 

 

[Red84]

Trimming is often done to deceive the potential buyer into thinking the comic is in better condition than it actually is, and therefore extract more money out of that buyer.

 

People want the original article in as close to its original condition as possible. Trimming creates that illusion when in fact the book has been damaged.*

 

I could understand a collector who bought trimmed books so he could have a group of books that looked much better than they are for a fraction of the price. But of course, that is a situation where a buyer knows they're buying a trimmed book and pays accordingly.

 

Unfortunately, trimmed books are often sold as unrestored books, and then people get hurt on the resale.

 

*In anticipation of the anti-presser's response. Trimming destroys the book by removing pieces; pressing merely squishes it. No different than someone putting a comic under a bunch of heavy books to flatten it.

[bluechip]

Part of the book is effing gone. And that improves the grade??

 

I don't see anyone saying it improves the grade, did I miss something?

'

 

It's called "restoration: which means or at least heavily implies something has been improved. And I have heard that trimmed books got better grades because of chips or overhangs cut off to create a better appearance. But that shouldn't improve the grade if a grade is based on structure, because a damaged portion should be considered preferable to having that same portion missing. Same principle applies to the removal of "restored" portions of a book to get a better grade. A damaged piece or even a "restpred" piece should always be preferable to having the piece be removed.

[Hulksdaddy1]

Trimming question: do people use bindery machinery (like a commerical paper cutter) or do they do it by hand?

 

I tried with a butter knife.

 

Not so good.

[bluechip]

Trimming is evil. Those who trim are evil.

 

What I would actually do is hammer the hell out of a trimmed book rather than give it a higher apparent grade. The book has lost paper and it was not due to production.

What does "production" have to do with anything anymore? I though that despised 'purist' outlook got tossed out about a decade back?

 

The graded hobby now thrives off post-manipulation "apparent" looks-as-if higher grades, and (your words) it was not due to production.

 

And so it begins...

 

 

I can't tell if they're being facetious or not. But if they aren't I could see a business opportunity in a new grading company which sets a numeric scale for how much "evil" the book contains.

[VintageComics]

Trimming is often done to deceive the potential buyer into thinking the comic is in better condition than it actually is, and therefore extract more money out of that buyer.

 

People want the original article in as close to its original condition as possible. Trimming creates that illusion when in fact the book has been damaged.*

 

I could understand a collector who bought trimmed books so he could have a group of books that looked much better than they are for a fraction of the price. But of course, that is a situation where a buyer knows they're buying a trimmed book and pays accordingly.

 

Unfortunately, trimmed books are often sold as unrestored books, and then people get hurt on the resale.

 

This has nothing to do with the OP's thread topic.

 

I'm curious why trimming is so high on the list of things that turn collectors off.

 

The OP does not wonder why people dislike undisclosed trimming.

 

He's wondering why people dislike disclosed trimming.

 

 

[ItsJustRyan]

I just think trimming is altering the way the book is supposed to be, I don't like tape either. Plus if you unknowingly buy a trimmed book and go CGC route you end up with a book worth about 25% to 33% of its value.

 

Case and point just recently happened to me. So you have press and clean fee, tier fee, shipping both ways and paypal fees. Then it comes back plod Ended up selling it to lose @$150. Lucky it was not a real high dollar book to start with

 

 

 

 

 

The problem I have is that I'm not a trimming detection expert (far from it) and I would buy this exact book again raw because I can't/couldn't tell that it has been trimmed.

[VintageComics]

Trimming is evil. Those who trim are evil.

 

What I would actually do is hammer the hell out of a trimmed book rather than give it a higher apparent grade. The book has lost paper and it was not due to production.

What does "production" have to do with anything anymore? I though that despised 'purist' outlook got tossed out about a decade back?

 

The graded hobby now thrives off post-manipulation "apparent" looks-as-if higher grades, and (your words) it was not due to production.

 

And so it begins...

 

 

I can't tell if they're being facetious or not.

 

I'm not being facetious. Most people's posts in this thread have nothing to do with what the OP asked and what Dav is talking about is what is and isn't considered 'OK' in the graded hobby.

 

This is exactly where I expected the thread to go as soon as I read the first post. We'll be turning this into in anonther pressing thread shortly.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Trimming is evil. Those who trim are evil.

 

What I would actually do is hammer the hell out of a trimmed book rather than give it a higher apparent grade. The book has lost paper and it was not due to production.

What does "production" have to do with anything anymore? I though that despised 'purist' outlook got tossed out about a decade back?

 

The graded hobby now thrives off post-manipulation "apparent" looks-as-if higher grades, and (your words) it was not due to production.

 

And so it begins...

 

 

I can't tell if they're being facetious or not.

 

I'm not being facetious. Most people's posts in this thread have nothing to do with what the OP asked and what Dav is talking about is what is and isn't considered 'OK' in the graded hobby.

 

This is exactly where I expected the thread to go as soon as I read the first post. We'll be turning this into in anonther pressing thread shortly.

 

[Red84]

Trimming is often done to deceive the potential buyer into thinking the comic is in better condition than it actually is, and therefore extract more money out of that buyer.

 

People want the original article in as close to its original condition as possible. Trimming creates that illusion when in fact the book has been damaged.*

 

I could understand a collector who bought trimmed books so he could have a group of books that looked much better than they are for a fraction of the price. But of course, that is a situation where a buyer knows they're buying a trimmed book and pays accordingly.

 

Unfortunately, trimmed books are often sold as unrestored books, and then people get hurt on the resale.

 

This has nothing to do with the OP's thread topic.

 

I'm curious why trimming is so high on the list of things that turn collectors off.

 

The OP does not wonder why people dislike undisclosed trimming.

 

He's wondering why people dislike disclosed trimming.

 

 

My 2nd paragraph was on point.

 

"People want the original article in as close to its original condition as possible. Trimming creates that illusion when in fact the book has been damaged."

[Davenport]

Trimming is evil. Those who trim are evil.

 

What I would actually do is hammer the hell out of a trimmed book rather than give it a higher apparent grade. The book has lost paper and it was not due to production.

What does "production" have to do with anything anymore? I though that despised 'purist' outlook got tossed out about a decade back?

 

The graded hobby now thrives off post-manipulation "apparent" looks-as-if higher grades, and (your words) it was not due to production.

 

And so it begins...

 

 

I can't tell if they're being facetious or not.

 

I'm not being facetious. Most people's posts in this thread have nothing to do with what the OP asked and what Dav is talking about is what is and isn't considered 'OK' in the graded hobby.

 

This is exactly where I expected the thread to go as soon as I read the first post. We'll be turning this into in another pressing thread shortly.

Only if you turn it into one.

 

But as long as you're being the thread-police please note I was addressing the OP's obeservation as well as the JazzMan opinion:

It seems to me that when a book is trimmed, it is trimmed by a tiny fraction of an inch, meaning that the cover loses a sliver of probably extraneous detail and the inner pages lose a tiny amount of margin. Nothing that affects story. Is this really that egregious? A lot of collectors cannot even spot trimming, but we can all spot chipping which can be pretty nasty and is not considered anywhere near as bad.

My comment was/is similar.

If "production" is so highly valued why is it a book that's still 99.9% original (micro-trimmed) will be abhorred, while a book that's 0% original (been completely disassembled and refurbished into a modern assembly) will be rewarded with both a higher grade and a higher value?

 

That is where the graded hobby is at. And the logic that drives the whackyness seems totally bizarre imho.

 

 

 

 

[PovertyRow]

but this is an honest attempt to see the POV of others.

 

I am my OWN man!

[VintageComics]

 

My 2nd paragraph was on point.

 

"People want the original article in as close to its original condition as possible. Trimming creates that illusion when in fact the book has been damaged."

 

Damage can describe many things done to a book.

 

For example, you color in a black area with a black market and it's 'damage'.

 

I think the OP is asking why one type of damage (trimming) is disliked more (and sometimes vehemently) than another (color touch).

 

So far the best explanation that I read (ever, actually) was that a trim could affect all pages of a book rather than one page and it's that great amount of change that affects the way someone feels about a book.

 

 

 

 

[rjpb]

 

The OP does not wonder why people dislike undisclosed trimming.

 

He's wondering why people dislike disclosed trimming.

 

 

Probably because the knowledge that it was likely once undisclosed taints the whole book in their minds.

 

The subtractive rather than additive nature of this type of restoration turns people off as well, though one of the oddities of trimming with older books, is that some trimmed copies still have more cover and page area than other factory trimmed copies that got too close a shave. As long as it's disclosed and not a hack job, I'm personally not overly irritated by trimming. I'd be more bothered by cover fading than a small edge trim.

 

Some formerly bound books and the like that are trimmed on three sides tend to look obviously small, though the same can be said for some Fox rebound giants which are not considered trimmed because the recutting was done by the publisher, but there are some that are always chopped to the margins and practically look like a digest.

[mackenzie999]

Lots of food for thought, primarily falling into two camps:

 

Trimming is bad because it facilitates swindling.

Trimming is bad because it makes the book incomplete.

I'd guess that most of you are in both camps, as am I.

But I still think tape is worse.

(non-archival that is)

 

One other thing: I have no experience with trimmed books, but it has always been my idea that we are talking about very miniscule amounts, perhaps a sixteenth of an inch. I would imagine anything more than that would be pretty obvious to even the untrained eye (such as mine), and in that case I agree it is pretty heinous. But trimming that falls within the margin of variation endemic to cheap printing? Bad, sure, but I don't think it should be considered ruinous.

And to be very, very clear: I am in no way advocating or condoning trimming