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Comic Book Investing

Started by HighStakesComics,

1,421 posts in this topic

namisgr

namisgr

Posted
Posted

Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

 

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

That collector is now a source of ridicule. :devil:

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MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted

Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

 

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

That collector is now a source of ridicule. :devil:

:cry:

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HighStakesComics

HighStakesComics

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Walking Dead 100? Wait, what?

 

You think 27 or 58 more key than 100, KPR?

. One of those, yeah kinda. But I'll hang up and listen.

 

Negan is the closest thing Rick Grimes has to an arch-nemesis in the comic and Kirkman has practically guaranteed he will be on the TV show, possibly sooner rather than later. Sheer speculation on my part as to which variant would perform best, if at all under that scenario. I would guess either the chromium or the McFarland.

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delekkerste

delekkerste

Posted
Posted

Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

What about the average collector who bought low to mid grade '50s Atlas pre-hero comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Archie comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought 50s horror in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Neal Adams keys five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Timely five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Our Army at War 83 in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Walking Dead five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Preacher five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Crime Suspenstories 22 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade golden age Hitler covers five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade AF 15 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

I'm sure others can add to this list if you would like.

 

That's hardly a list that the "average collector" would have acquired 5 years ago (or at any time, really), is it? Rifleman? '50s Atlas? GA Hitler covers? Archie? Not a lot of popular, mainstream stuff on that list. And, with stuff like WD and Preacher, how much $$$ are we actually talking about here? Might be impressive on a % basis, but we're talking about very small amounts in absolute dollars (and not scalable at that). You're talking about a list that a seasoned speculator might have bought, but hardly the average collector. And scalability/liquidity is definitely an issue with a lot of the above; I doubt you could put a lot of money to work in some of those without moving the market and soaking up the available supply.

 

Not to mention, 5 years ago is a convenient starting point. I could put together a list of stocks from that period just off the top of my head that have fared pretty well (all household names, not a "Rifleman" among them):

 

What about the average investor who bought S&P 500 SPDR Trust (SPY) 5 years ago? (+136% including reinvested dividends)

 

What about the average investor who bought Wyndham Worldwide 5 years ago? (+594%)

 

What about the average investor who bought CBS 5 years ago? (+835%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Gannett 5 years ago? (+866%)

 

What about the average investor who bought L Brands 5 years ago? (+667%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Apple 5 years ago? (+378%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Ford Motor 5 years ago? (+277%)

 

What about the average investor who bought International Paper 5 years ago? (+311%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Netflix 5 years ago? (+991%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Priceline 5 years ago? (+947%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Caterpillar 5 years ago? (+255%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Halliburton 5 years ago? (+259%)

 

What about the average investor who bought United Airlines 5 years ago? (+1,080%)

 

I could put together a list of stocks up triple or even quadruple digits longer than you are if we're using 5 years ago as a starting point. Not that I advocate looking in the rearview mirror, of course. Are comics a great investment at current levels, with many catalysts and tailwinds potentially behind them? Are stocks for that matter? At least with the latter, you have underlying cash flows that tend to absolve one's investment mistakes over time. With comics, you just had a 10-15 year period where everything went right (demographics, distribution, third party grading, market acceptance of manipulation, blockbuster movies, cheap money, etc.) Will the next 10-15 years provide the incremental revaluation potential that people expect? I'm not saying that there aren't people who can make money in comics (though much of that better falls into the category of dealing and manipulation). I do think that the "average collector" is not likely to fare well with his comic "investments", however. 2c

 

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MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted

Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

What about the average collector who bought low to mid grade '50s Atlas pre-hero comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Archie comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought 50s horror in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Neal Adams keys five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Timely five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Our Army at War 83 in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Walking Dead five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Preacher five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Crime Suspenstories 22 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade golden age Hitler covers five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade AF 15 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

I'm sure others can add to this list if you would like.

 

That's hardly a list that the "average collector" would have acquired 5 years ago (or at any time, really), is it? Rifleman? '50s Atlas? GA Hitler covers? Archie? Not a lot of popular, mainstream stuff on that list. And, with stuff like WD and Preacher, how much $$$ are we actually talking about here? Might be impressive on a % basis, but we're talking about very small amounts in absolute dollars (and not scalable at that). You're talking about a list that a seasoned speculator might have bought, but hardly the average collector. And scalability/liquidity is definitely an issue with a lot of the above; I doubt you could put a lot of money to work in some of those without moving the market and soaking up the available supply.

 

Not to mention, 5 years ago is a convenient starting point. I could put together a list of stocks from that period just off the top of my head that have fared pretty well (all household names, not a "Rifleman" among them):

 

What about the average investor who bought S&P 500 SPDR Trust (SPY) 5 years ago? (+136% including reinvested dividends)

 

What about the average investor who bought Wyndham Worldwide 5 years ago? (+594%)

 

What about the average investor who bought CBS 5 years ago? (+835%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Gannett 5 years ago? (+866%)

 

What about the average investor who bought L Brands 5 years ago? (+667%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Apple 5 years ago? (+378%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Ford Motor 5 years ago? (+277%)

 

What about the average investor who bought International Paper 5 years ago? (+311%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Netflix 5 years ago? (+991%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Priceline 5 years ago? (+947%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Caterpillar 5 years ago? (+255%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Halliburton 5 years ago? (+259%)

 

What about the average investor who bought United Airlines 5 years ago? (+1,080%)

 

I could put together a list of stocks up triple or even quadruple digits longer than you are if we're using 5 years ago as a starting point. Not that I advocate looking in the rearview mirror, of course. Are comics a great investment at current levels, with many catalysts and tailwinds potentially behind them? Are stocks for that matter? At least with the latter, you have underlying cash flows that tend to absolve one's investment mistakes over time. With comics, you just had a 10-15 year period where everything went right (demographics, distribution, third party grading, market acceptance of manipulation, blockbuster movies, cheap money, etc.) Will the next 10-15 years provide the incremental revaluation potential that people expect? I'm not saying that there aren't people who can make money in comics (though much of that better falls into the category of dealing and manipulation). I do think that the "average collector" is not likely to fare well with his comic "investments", however. 2c

So you say it isn't feasible for the average guy to invest in comics, then you give us a list of specific comics in specific grades which tanked. I respond with a list of random comics in random grades with incredible upside over a five year period and you have a problem with my list, saying it isn't average enough for you. Then you give me a list of random stocks which had incredible upside. I'm really not following you here. Are you showing me that you are a stock genius? Bully for you. Are you refuting that money can be made by properly investing in genres of comics? Nope.

 

I guess it makes sense to you. You probably should have bought a bunch of Atlas horror books though. I think you would have done much better.

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Jaydogrules

Jaydogrules

Posted
Posted

Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

What about the average collector who bought low to mid grade '50s Atlas pre-hero comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Archie comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought 50s horror in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Neal Adams keys five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Timely five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Our Army at War 83 in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Walking Dead five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Preacher five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Crime Suspenstories 22 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade golden age Hitler covers five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade AF 15 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

I'm sure others can add to this list if you would like.

 

That's hardly a list that the "average collector" would have acquired 5 years ago (or at any time, really), is it? Rifleman? '50s Atlas? GA Hitler covers? Archie? Not a lot of popular, mainstream stuff on that list. And, with stuff like WD and Preacher, how much $$$ are we actually talking about here? Might be impressive on a % basis, but we're talking about very small amounts in absolute dollars (and not scalable at that). You're talking about a list that a seasoned speculator might have bought, but hardly the average collector. And scalability/liquidity is definitely an issue with a lot of the above; I doubt you could put a lot of money to work in some of those without moving the market and soaking up the available supply.

 

Not to mention, 5 years ago is a convenient starting point. I could put together a list of stocks from that period just off the top of my head that have fared pretty well (all household names, not a "Rifleman" among them):

 

What about the average investor who bought S&P 500 SPDR Trust (SPY) 5 years ago? (+136% including reinvested dividends)

 

What about the average investor who bought Wyndham Worldwide 5 years ago? (+594%)

 

What about the average investor who bought CBS 5 years ago? (+835%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Gannett 5 years ago? (+866%)

 

What about the average investor who bought L Brands 5 years ago? (+667%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Apple 5 years ago? (+378%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Ford Motor 5 years ago? (+277%)

 

What about the average investor who bought International Paper 5 years ago? (+311%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Netflix 5 years ago? (+991%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Priceline 5 years ago? (+947%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Caterpillar 5 years ago? (+255%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Halliburton 5 years ago? (+259%)

 

What about the average investor who bought United Airlines 5 years ago? (+1,080%)

 

I could put together a list of stocks up triple or even quadruple digits longer than you are if we're using 5 years ago as a starting point. Not that I advocate looking in the rearview mirror, of course. Are comics a great investment at current levels, with many catalysts and tailwinds potentially behind them? Are stocks for that matter? At least with the latter, you have underlying cash flows that tend to absolve one's investment mistakes over time. With comics, you just had a 10-15 year period where everything went right (demographics, distribution, third party grading, market acceptance of manipulation, blockbuster movies, cheap money, etc.) Will the next 10-15 years provide the incremental revaluation potential that people expect? I'm not saying that there aren't people who can make money in comics (though much of that better falls into the category of dealing and manipulation). I do think that the "average collector" is not likely to fare well with his comic "investments", however. 2c

 

Yeah I'm not sure what this post is supposed to be proving either. This isn't a thread to discuss how wonderful of an investment stocks sometimes are. It is a thread to consider the upside of comics as an investment. And I would say that the feasibility of that has been established many different ways by several different posters at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

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shadroch

shadroch

Posted
Posted

I believe it has something to do with today's bread not having nutrients in it, which causes the CPI to do funny things that only the best of us can decipher. The rest of us are stuck using shiny new dimes for gasoline, or sumpton.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

 

I can buy 10,000 shares of Walmart in the next five minutes.

 

Not attacking you here, RMA,...but so what? I know you have stated this in relation to being able to go out and drop investment money on a specific old comic at the drop of a hat. And in an instantaneous interval that may be pertinent. But we are talking about investing in comics over a time frame that makes that line of reasoning moot. And even then, it is still possible to flip comics on a minute to minute and day to day basis and be profitable. If you wish to spend the time and know the market you can profit off of the minute variances in different sales arenas (auction houses vs. eBay vs. these boards vs. want-list customers vs. web-sales). So the "I could buy 10,000 shares of X tomorrow" line of reasoning is not important to this discussion. You could go out and buy any comic you want tomorrow if you are prepared to pay for it. I guarantee you that there is a price at which the MH Action 1 could be had. Would it be a price that would be a sound investment? Who knows.

 

But the key to any investment is research. Do enough research and you can invest in comics and do incredibly well. Don't do enough research and you will lose money. That is something that is not spoken about enough in this thread. Would I recommend that some random person invest in comics? No. But I would recommend that any random person who is interested in investing should go and do their homework. Learn this market. Learn about the cool stuff we get to mess around with and look at daily. Get a real understanding of what comics are and why people enjoy them (and therefore why people collect them). Then, once someone is armed with that knowledge, I would definitely recommend they go and invest their money in comics. Because once they are armed with that knowledge there is no way they could possibly lose money on their investment.

 

Likewise, Mr. B, I am not attacking you...but it matters for all the reasons stated before: ability to find said material at prices that make the material a good, as opposed to a bad, investment, the lack of reliable third party grading until very recently, storage, insurance, susceptibility to loss through natural means, etc. Buying a book in a slab in 2004 for $100, and selling it in 2014 for $450 is great! But did you buy 100 of those for $100 each, and then sell them all for $450 each? $350 minus expenses is a great return...once.

 

Where are all the comic book millionaires? Where are all the people who made fortunes in the comics market? As said before, there are, what...50 of you? 100? Let's look at hard data, with specific examples, rather than just say "all you have to do is learn your market, and you can do really well!", because that's not always true, and it's what everybody already knows.

 

Because I'll say what I said before: when I got in (essentially 1990), I did all the right things, things that everyone in comics had done before me, and had done really well. I did not see (and neither did much of anyone else) 1995-1996 looming on the horizon. I learned the market, I soaked up information like a sponge...and still "lost." What was true of the market in the 70's and 80's was no longer true, and could not be relied upon any further...and no one really knew that. And what was true in the 90's and early 2000's is no longer true today.

 

There is more knowledge on this board than any other concentration of comic book people in the world...and yet, we're not all millionaires. Some of us have done very well, no doubt. *I* have done very well. I've managed to turn many, many lemons into lemonade...but I shouldn't have had to, according to the way it was done in the 70's and 80's, and I'm not a stupid man. And if I had gotten out at any time between 1993 and 2007....I would have shown nothing but red ink as far as the eye can see.

 

hm

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HighStakesComics

HighStakesComics

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Posted

Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

What about the average collector who bought low to mid grade '50s Atlas pre-hero comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Archie comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought 50s horror in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Neal Adams keys five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Timely five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Our Army at War 83 in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Walking Dead five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Preacher five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Crime Suspenstories 22 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade golden age Hitler covers five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade AF 15 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

I'm sure others can add to this list if you would like.

That's hardly a list that the "average collector" would have acquired 5 years ago (or at any time, really), is it? Rifleman? '50s Atlas? GA Hitler covers? Archie? Not a lot of popular, mainstream stuff on that list. And, with stuff like WD and Preacher, how much $$$ are we actually talking about here? Might be impressive on a % basis, but we're talking about very small amounts in absolute dollars (and not scalable at that). You're talking about a list that a seasoned speculator might have bought, but hardly the average collector. And scalability/liquidity is definitely an issue with a lot of the above; I doubt you could put a lot of money to work in some of those without moving the market and soaking up the available supply.

 

Not to mention, 5 years ago is a convenient starting point. I could put together a list of stocks from that period just off the top of my head that have fared pretty well (all household names, not a "Rifleman" among them):

 

What about the average investor who bought S&P 500 SPDR Trust (SPY) 5 years ago? (+136% including reinvested dividends)

 

What about the average investor who bought Wyndham Worldwide 5 years ago? (+594%)

 

What about the average investor who bought CBS 5 years ago? (+835%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Gannett 5 years ago? (+866%)

 

What about the average investor who bought L Brands 5 years ago? (+667%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Apple 5 years ago? (+378%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Ford Motor 5 years ago? (+277%)

 

What about the average investor who bought International Paper 5 years ago? (+311%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Netflix 5 years ago? (+991%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Priceline 5 years ago? (+947%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Caterpillar 5 years ago? (+255%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Halliburton 5 years ago? (+259%)

 

What about the average investor who bought United Airlines 5 years ago? (+1,080%)

 

I could put together a list of stocks up triple or even quadruple digits longer than you are if we're using 5 years ago as a starting point. Not that I advocate looking in the rearview mirror, of course. Are comics a great investment at current levels, with many catalysts and tailwinds potentially behind them? Are stocks for that matter? At least with the latter, you have underlying cash flows that tend to absolve one's investment mistakes over time. With comics, you just had a 10-15 year period where everything went right (demographics, distribution, third party grading, market acceptance of manipulation, blockbuster movies, cheap money, etc.) Will the next 10-15 years provide the incremental revaluation potential that people expect? I'm not saying that there aren't people who can make money in comics (though much of that better falls into the category of dealing and manipulation). I do think that the "average collector" is not likely to fare well with his comic "investments", however. 2c

 

Yeah I'm not sure what this post is supposed to be proving either. This isn't a thread to discuss how wonderful of an investment stocks sometimes are. It is a thread to consider the upside of comics as an investment. And I would say that the feasibility of that has been established many different ways by several different posters at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

At least Mean Gene doesn't discriminate with his urinating matches. He's gone from slingin pee with a noob (yours truly) to one of the biggest comic dealers in the Southwest, if not the entire country (Bedrock). Yikes!!

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HighStakesComics

HighStakesComics

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I can buy 10,000 shares of Walmart in the next five minutes.

 

Not attacking you here, RMA,...but so what? I know you have stated this in relation to being able to go out and drop investment money on a specific old comic at the drop of a hat. And in an instantaneous interval that may be pertinent. But we are talking about investing in comics over a time frame that makes that line of reasoning moot. And even then, it is still possible to flip comics on a minute to minute and day to day basis and be profitable. If you wish to spend the time and know the market you can profit off of the minute variances in different sales arenas (auction houses vs. eBay vs. these boards vs. want-list customers vs. web-sales). So the "I could buy 10,000 shares of X tomorrow" line of reasoning is not important to this discussion. You could go out and buy any comic you want tomorrow if you are prepared to pay for it. I guarantee you that there is a price at which the MH Action 1 could be had. Would it be a price that would be a sound investment? Who knows.

 

But the key to any investment is research. Do enough research and you can invest in comics and do incredibly well. Don't do enough research and you will lose money. That is something that is not spoken about enough in this thread. Would I recommend that some random person invest in comics? No. But I would recommend that any random person who is interested in investing should go and do their homework. Learn this market. Learn about the cool stuff we get to mess around with and look at daily. Get a real understanding of what comics are and why people enjoy them (and therefore why people collect them). Then, once someone is armed with that knowledge, I would definitely recommend they go and invest their money in comics. Because once they are armed with that knowledge there is no way they could possibly lose money on their investment.

 

Likewise, Mr. B, I am not attacking you...but it matters for all the reasons stated before: ability to find said material at prices that make the material a good, as opposed to a bad, investment, the lack of reliable third party grading until very recently, storage, insurance, susceptibility to loss through natural means, etc. Buying a book in a slab in 2004 for $100, and selling it in 2014 for $450 is great! But did you buy 100 of those for $100 each, and then sell them all for $450 each? $350 minus expenses is a great return...once.

 

Where are all the comic book millionaires? Where are all the people who made fortunes in the comics market? As said before, there are, what...50 of you? 100? Let's look at hard data, with specific examples, rather than just say "all you have to do is learn your market, and you can do really well!", because that's not always true, and it's what everybody already knows.

 

Because I'll say what I said before: when I got in (essentially 1990), I did all the right things, things that everyone in comics had done before me, and had done really well. I did not see (and neither did much of anyone else) 1995-1996 looming on the horizon. I learned the market, I soaked up information like a sponge...and still "lost." What was true of the market in the 70's and 80's was no longer true, and could not be relied upon any further...and no one really knew that. And what was true in the 90's and early 2000's is no longer true today.

 

There is more knowledge on this board than any other concentration of comic book people in the world...and yet, we're not all millionaires. Some of us have done very well, no doubt. *I* have done very well. I've managed to turn many, many lemons into lemonade...but I shouldn't have had to, according to the way it was done in the 70's and 80's, and I'm not a stupid man. And if I had gotten out at any time between 1993 and 2007....I would have shown nothing but red ink as far as the eye can see.

 

hm

 

Hey, RMA. I've got a tip for ya. If you have $40k+ listed in comics on ebay, maybe you shouldn't be telling everyone within an earshot what terrible investments they are. Maybe that's got something to do with why you aren't sitting on piles of cash, ya bum!!

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bronze_rules

bronze_rules

Posted
Posted

Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

What about the average collector who bought low to mid grade '50s Atlas pre-hero comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Archie comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought 50s horror in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Neal Adams keys five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Timely five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Our Army at War 83 in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Walking Dead five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Preacher five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Crime Suspenstories 22 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade golden age Hitler covers five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade AF 15 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

I'm sure others can add to this list if you would like.

 

That's hardly a list that the "average collector" would have acquired 5 years ago (or at any time, really), is it? Rifleman? '50s Atlas? GA Hitler covers? Archie? Not a lot of popular, mainstream stuff on that list. And, with stuff like WD and Preacher, how much $$$ are we actually talking about here? Might be impressive on a % basis, but we're talking about very small amounts in absolute dollars (and not scalable at that). You're talking about a list that a seasoned speculator might have bought, but hardly the average collector. And scalability/liquidity is definitely an issue with a lot of the above; I doubt you could put a lot of money to work in some of those without moving the market and soaking up the available supply.

 

Not to mention, 5 years ago is a convenient starting point. I could put together a list of stocks from that period just off the top of my head that have fared pretty well (all household names, not a "Rifleman" among them):

 

What about the average investor who bought S&P 500 SPDR Trust (SPY) 5 years ago? (+136% including reinvested dividends)

 

What about the average investor who bought Wyndham Worldwide 5 years ago? (+594%)

 

What about the average investor who bought CBS 5 years ago? (+835%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Gannett 5 years ago? (+866%)

 

What about the average investor who bought L Brands 5 years ago? (+667%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Apple 5 years ago? (+378%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Ford Motor 5 years ago? (+277%)

 

What about the average investor who bought International Paper 5 years ago? (+311%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Netflix 5 years ago? (+991%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Priceline 5 years ago? (+947%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Caterpillar 5 years ago? (+255%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Halliburton 5 years ago? (+259%)

 

What about the average investor who bought United Airlines 5 years ago? (+1,080%)

 

I could put together a list of stocks up triple or even quadruple digits longer than you are if we're using 5 years ago as a starting point. Not that I advocate looking in the rearview mirror, of course. Are comics a great investment at current levels, with many catalysts and tailwinds potentially behind them? Are stocks for that matter? At least with the latter, you have underlying cash flows that tend to absolve one's investment mistakes over time. With comics, you just had a 10-15 year period where everything went right (demographics, distribution, third party grading, market acceptance of manipulation, blockbuster movies, cheap money, etc.) Will the next 10-15 years provide the incremental revaluation potential that people expect? I'm not saying that there aren't people who can make money in comics (though much of that better falls into the category of dealing and manipulation). I do think that the "average collector" is not likely to fare well with his comic "investments", however. 2c

 

Yeah I'm not sure what this post is supposed to be proving either. This isn't a thread to discuss how wonderful of an investment stocks sometimes are. It is a thread to consider the upside of comics as an investment. And I would say that the feasibility of that has been established many different ways by several different posters at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Geez, guys, it's not that complicated. :facepalm:

Cherry picking illustrations in hindsight (20/20) is probably the worst way to make any argument about future investments (sadly, it's very popular in the investing world, though). Instead of saying what about the 'average' comic investor who bought walking dead 1, 10 years ago, or as an analogy to stocks, what about the 'average' investor who bought AAPL 10 years ago , it makes far more sense to point out to some type of index or basket of investments as a reference... the longer, preferably, the better. This is a better proxy for what any 'average' investor bought.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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What about the average collector who bought Our Army at War 83 in any grade five years ago?

.

 

I had a nice copy of this that I bought in 2001 for...I think...$75 or so. Probably a VG+.

 

I *think* I sold it in 2003 for maybe $150.

 

I bought two VF- copies (which I'm sure have since been pressed and reside in 9.0 slabs) of GI Combat #69 and #75 for $40 each....sold them on eBay for $177 each in 2002-ish.

 

What are those worth now? $1300-$1500?

 

And how many such copies were available to me?

 

Just one each. That's all that was available for me to purchase. If I could have purchased more, I would have, but they weren't available.

 

First question...how was anyone to know that OAAW #83 would do what it did? Past history showed no indication of any sort. In fact, for most of its history, it played second fiddle to #81.

 

Second question...how does one buy single copies here and there as an investment strategy?

 

Another anecdote: in 2010, I was at the "Pasadena Rockin' Con", which was a dismal failure, but I spied a gorgeous Combat #110. I bought it for $220. I pressed it, subbed it, and it came back a 9.4. I was thrilled.

 

I put it on eBay. I had no idea how to price it. The only other sales data was a 2003 sale for $265. I was going to price it at $1,000, then, at the last second, put it at $2,000. Within 24 hours, I had an offer of $1750. I was thrilled SPITLESS!

 

That person took that copy, cracked it, pressed it, subbed it to CGC, and got a 9.6 (the 9.6 I was hoping for.)

 

It was then listed at Heritage, where the now-9.6 copy of the book I owned sold for $479.

 

Big loss for that buyer. Big time. If I had had the available funds, I could have bought the book I subbed, in a grade level higher than mine, and cleared $1000+ in pure profit.

 

It was bought by keycomics in Florida, and sold from them for $800. I debated buying it, but couldn't get past the fact that if I'd been paying attention, I could have owned it for $479 + whatever it would have taken to be the highest bidder, so I passed.

 

 

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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Let's face it - the "average" collector has probably not fared too well investing in comics.

What about the average collector who bought low to mid grade '50s Atlas pre-hero comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Archie comics five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought 50s horror in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Neal Adams keys five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Timely five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Our Army at War 83 in any grade five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Walking Dead five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Preacher five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade Crime Suspenstories 22 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade golden age Hitler covers five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought low grade AF 15 five years ago?

What about the average collector who bought Rifleman 10 five years ago?

 

I'm sure others can add to this list if you would like.

 

That's hardly a list that the "average collector" would have acquired 5 years ago (or at any time, really), is it? Rifleman? '50s Atlas? GA Hitler covers? Archie? Not a lot of popular, mainstream stuff on that list. And, with stuff like WD and Preacher, how much $$$ are we actually talking about here? Might be impressive on a % basis, but we're talking about very small amounts in absolute dollars (and not scalable at that). You're talking about a list that a seasoned speculator might have bought, but hardly the average collector. And scalability/liquidity is definitely an issue with a lot of the above; I doubt you could put a lot of money to work in some of those without moving the market and soaking up the available supply.

 

Not to mention, 5 years ago is a convenient starting point. I could put together a list of stocks from that period just off the top of my head that have fared pretty well (all household names, not a "Rifleman" among them):

 

What about the average investor who bought S&P 500 SPDR Trust (SPY) 5 years ago? (+136% including reinvested dividends)

 

What about the average investor who bought Wyndham Worldwide 5 years ago? (+594%)

 

What about the average investor who bought CBS 5 years ago? (+835%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Gannett 5 years ago? (+866%)

 

What about the average investor who bought L Brands 5 years ago? (+667%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Apple 5 years ago? (+378%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Ford Motor 5 years ago? (+277%)

 

What about the average investor who bought International Paper 5 years ago? (+311%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Netflix 5 years ago? (+991%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Priceline 5 years ago? (+947%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Caterpillar 5 years ago? (+255%)

 

What about the average investor who bought Halliburton 5 years ago? (+259%)

 

What about the average investor who bought United Airlines 5 years ago? (+1,080%)

 

I could put together a list of stocks up triple or even quadruple digits longer than you are if we're using 5 years ago as a starting point. Not that I advocate looking in the rearview mirror, of course. Are comics a great investment at current levels, with many catalysts and tailwinds potentially behind them? Are stocks for that matter? At least with the latter, you have underlying cash flows that tend to absolve one's investment mistakes over time. With comics, you just had a 10-15 year period where everything went right (demographics, distribution, third party grading, market acceptance of manipulation, blockbuster movies, cheap money, etc.) Will the next 10-15 years provide the incremental revaluation potential that people expect? I'm not saying that there aren't people who can make money in comics (though much of that better falls into the category of dealing and manipulation). I do think that the "average collector" is not likely to fare well with his comic "investments", however. 2c

 

Yeah I'm not sure what this post is supposed to be proving either. This isn't a thread to discuss how wonderful of an investment stocks sometimes are. It is a thread to consider the upside of comics as an investment. And I would say that the feasibility of that has been established many different ways by several different posters at this point. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Geez, guys, it's not that complicated. :facepalm:

Cherry picking illustrations in hindsight (20/20) is probably the worst way to make any argument about future investments (sadly, it's very popular in the investing world, though). Instead of saying what about the 'average' comic investor who bought walking dead 1, 10 years ago, or as an analogy to stocks, what about the 'average' investor who bought AAPL 10 years ago , it makes far more sense to point out to some type of index or basket of investments as a reference... the longer, preferably, the better. This is a better proxy for what any 'average' investor bought.

 

THIS, x 10,000

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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I can buy 10,000 shares of Walmart in the next five minutes.

 

Not attacking you here, RMA,...but so what? I know you have stated this in relation to being able to go out and drop investment money on a specific old comic at the drop of a hat. And in an instantaneous interval that may be pertinent. But we are talking about investing in comics over a time frame that makes that line of reasoning moot. And even then, it is still possible to flip comics on a minute to minute and day to day basis and be profitable. If you wish to spend the time and know the market you can profit off of the minute variances in different sales arenas (auction houses vs. eBay vs. these boards vs. want-list customers vs. web-sales). So the "I could buy 10,000 shares of X tomorrow" line of reasoning is not important to this discussion. You could go out and buy any comic you want tomorrow if you are prepared to pay for it. I guarantee you that there is a price at which the MH Action 1 could be had. Would it be a price that would be a sound investment? Who knows.

 

But the key to any investment is research. Do enough research and you can invest in comics and do incredibly well. Don't do enough research and you will lose money. That is something that is not spoken about enough in this thread. Would I recommend that some random person invest in comics? No. But I would recommend that any random person who is interested in investing should go and do their homework. Learn this market. Learn about the cool stuff we get to mess around with and look at daily. Get a real understanding of what comics are and why people enjoy them (and therefore why people collect them). Then, once someone is armed with that knowledge, I would definitely recommend they go and invest their money in comics. Because once they are armed with that knowledge there is no way they could possibly lose money on their investment.

 

Likewise, Mr. B, I am not attacking you...but it matters for all the reasons stated before: ability to find said material at prices that make the material a good, as opposed to a bad, investment, the lack of reliable third party grading until very recently, storage, insurance, susceptibility to loss through natural means, etc. Buying a book in a slab in 2004 for $100, and selling it in 2014 for $450 is great! But did you buy 100 of those for $100 each, and then sell them all for $450 each? $350 minus expenses is a great return...once.

 

Where are all the comic book millionaires? Where are all the people who made fortunes in the comics market? As said before, there are, what...50 of you? 100? Let's look at hard data, with specific examples, rather than just say "all you have to do is learn your market, and you can do really well!", because that's not always true, and it's what everybody already knows.

 

Because I'll say what I said before: when I got in (essentially 1990), I did all the right things, things that everyone in comics had done before me, and had done really well. I did not see (and neither did much of anyone else) 1995-1996 looming on the horizon. I learned the market, I soaked up information like a sponge...and still "lost." What was true of the market in the 70's and 80's was no longer true, and could not be relied upon any further...and no one really knew that. And what was true in the 90's and early 2000's is no longer true today.

 

There is more knowledge on this board than any other concentration of comic book people in the world...and yet, we're not all millionaires. Some of us have done very well, no doubt. *I* have done very well. I've managed to turn many, many lemons into lemonade...but I shouldn't have had to, according to the way it was done in the 70's and 80's, and I'm not a stupid man. And if I had gotten out at any time between 1993 and 2007....I would have shown nothing but red ink as far as the eye can see.

 

hm

 

Hey, RMA. I've got a tip for ya. If you have $40k+ listed in comics on ebay, maybe you shouldn't be telling everyone within an earshot what terrible investments they are. Maybe that's got something to do with why you aren't sitting on piles of cash, ya bum!!

 

lol

 

I am "arguing counter to my interests" which, in legalese, means that my argument theoretically is the most weighty of all.

 

But I don't market to investors. I market to addicts.

 

Like myself.

 

:cloud9:

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Jaydogrules

Jaydogrules

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Posted

 

I can buy 10,000 shares of Walmart in the next five minutes.

 

Not attacking you here, RMA,...but so what? I know you have stated this in relation to being able to go out and drop investment money on a specific old comic at the drop of a hat. And in an instantaneous interval that may be pertinent. But we are talking about investing in comics over a time frame that makes that line of reasoning moot. And even then, it is still possible to flip comics on a minute to minute and day to day basis and be profitable. If you wish to spend the time and know the market you can profit off of the minute variances in different sales arenas (auction houses vs. eBay vs. these boards vs. want-list customers vs. web-sales). So the "I could buy 10,000 shares of X tomorrow" line of reasoning is not important to this discussion. You could go out and buy any comic you want tomorrow if you are prepared to pay for it. I guarantee you that there is a price at which the MH Action 1 could be had. Would it be a price that would be a sound investment? Who knows.

 

But the key to any investment is research. Do enough research and you can invest in comics and do incredibly well. Don't do enough research and you will lose money. That is something that is not spoken about enough in this thread. Would I recommend that some random person invest in comics? No. But I would recommend that any random person who is interested in investing should go and do their homework. Learn this market. Learn about the cool stuff we get to mess around with and look at daily. Get a real understanding of what comics are and why people enjoy them (and therefore why people collect them). Then, once someone is armed with that knowledge, I would definitely recommend they go and invest their money in comics. Because once they are armed with that knowledge there is no way they could possibly lose money on their investment.

 

Likewise, Mr. B, I am not attacking you...but it matters for all the reasons stated before: ability to find said material at prices that make the material a good, as opposed to a bad, investment, the lack of reliable third party grading until very recently, storage, insurance, susceptibility to loss through natural means, etc. Buying a book in a slab in 2004 for $100, and selling it in 2014 for $450 is great! But did you buy 100 of those for $100 each, and then sell them all for $450 each? $350 minus expenses is a great return...once.

 

Where are all the comic book millionaires? Where are all the people who made fortunes in the comics market? As said before, there are, what...50 of you? 100? Let's look at hard data, with specific examples, rather than just say "all you have to do is learn your market, and you can do really well!", because that's not always true, and it's what everybody already knows.

 

Because I'll say what I said before: when I got in (essentially 1990), I did all the right things, things that everyone in comics had done before me, and had done really well. I did not see (and neither did much of anyone else) 1995-1996 looming on the horizon. I learned the market, I soaked up information like a sponge...and still "lost." What was true of the market in the 70's and 80's was no longer true, and could not be relied upon any further...and no one really knew that. And what was true in the 90's and early 2000's is no longer true today.

 

There is more knowledge on this board than any other concentration of comic book people in the world...and yet, we're not all millionaires. Some of us have done very well, no doubt. *I* have done very well. I've managed to turn many, many lemons into lemonade...but I shouldn't have had to, according to the way it was done in the 70's and 80's, and I'm not a stupid man. And if I had gotten out at any time between 1993 and 2007....I would have shown nothing but red ink as far as the eye can see.

 

hm

 

So to use your own analogy am I to presume that a person is only a "successful" stock market or real estate investor if they have made millions doing it as well ?

 

-J.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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Posted

 

I can buy 10,000 shares of Walmart in the next five minutes.

 

Not attacking you here, RMA,...but so what? I know you have stated this in relation to being able to go out and drop investment money on a specific old comic at the drop of a hat. And in an instantaneous interval that may be pertinent. But we are talking about investing in comics over a time frame that makes that line of reasoning moot. And even then, it is still possible to flip comics on a minute to minute and day to day basis and be profitable. If you wish to spend the time and know the market you can profit off of the minute variances in different sales arenas (auction houses vs. eBay vs. these boards vs. want-list customers vs. web-sales). So the "I could buy 10,000 shares of X tomorrow" line of reasoning is not important to this discussion. You could go out and buy any comic you want tomorrow if you are prepared to pay for it. I guarantee you that there is a price at which the MH Action 1 could be had. Would it be a price that would be a sound investment? Who knows.

 

But the key to any investment is research. Do enough research and you can invest in comics and do incredibly well. Don't do enough research and you will lose money. That is something that is not spoken about enough in this thread. Would I recommend that some random person invest in comics? No. But I would recommend that any random person who is interested in investing should go and do their homework. Learn this market. Learn about the cool stuff we get to mess around with and look at daily. Get a real understanding of what comics are and why people enjoy them (and therefore why people collect them). Then, once someone is armed with that knowledge, I would definitely recommend they go and invest their money in comics. Because once they are armed with that knowledge there is no way they could possibly lose money on their investment.

 

Likewise, Mr. B, I am not attacking you...but it matters for all the reasons stated before: ability to find said material at prices that make the material a good, as opposed to a bad, investment, the lack of reliable third party grading until very recently, storage, insurance, susceptibility to loss through natural means, etc. Buying a book in a slab in 2004 for $100, and selling it in 2014 for $450 is great! But did you buy 100 of those for $100 each, and then sell them all for $450 each? $350 minus expenses is a great return...once.

 

Where are all the comic book millionaires? Where are all the people who made fortunes in the comics market? As said before, there are, what...50 of you? 100? Let's look at hard data, with specific examples, rather than just say "all you have to do is learn your market, and you can do really well!", because that's not always true, and it's what everybody already knows.

 

Because I'll say what I said before: when I got in (essentially 1990), I did all the right things, things that everyone in comics had done before me, and had done really well. I did not see (and neither did much of anyone else) 1995-1996 looming on the horizon. I learned the market, I soaked up information like a sponge...and still "lost." What was true of the market in the 70's and 80's was no longer true, and could not be relied upon any further...and no one really knew that. And what was true in the 90's and early 2000's is no longer true today.

 

There is more knowledge on this board than any other concentration of comic book people in the world...and yet, we're not all millionaires. Some of us have done very well, no doubt. *I* have done very well. I've managed to turn many, many lemons into lemonade...but I shouldn't have had to, according to the way it was done in the 70's and 80's, and I'm not a stupid man. And if I had gotten out at any time between 1993 and 2007....I would have shown nothing but red ink as far as the eye can see.

 

hm

 

So to use your own analogy am I to presume that a person is only a "successful" stock market or real estate investor if they have made millions doing it as well ?

 

-J.

 

I'm still waiting for you to name all the posters "that have come on here with real life experience that have directly refuted your (my) claims"...

 

:popcorn:

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delekkerste

delekkerste

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Geez, guys, it's not that complicated. :facepalm:

Cherry picking illustrations in hindsight (20/20) is probably the worst way to make any argument about future investments (sadly, it's very popular in the investing world, though). Instead of saying what about the 'average' comic investor who bought walking dead 1, 10 years ago, or as an analogy to stocks, what about the 'average' investor who bought AAPL 10 years ago , it makes far more sense to point out to some type of index or basket of investments as a reference... the longer, preferably, the better. This is a better proxy for what any 'average' investor bought.

 

(thumbs u

 

That's why I started the list off showing the 5-year return of the S&P 500 (+136%; incidentally, the Nasdaq QQQ ETF returned 172% and the Russell 2000 ETF returned 150%), which is about as representative of an "average" stock market investment you can get, and then listed a lot of large-cap, household name companies. If I wanted to, I could have easily cherry picked a bunch of quadruple-digit 5-year winners that would be the equivalent of picking Atlas horror comics, but these are things that hardly any investors would have known about or considered 5 years ago.

 

Saying that the average collector would have had any idea to buy the stuff that Richard listed 5 years ago is a wild stretch, to say the least. That list certainly does not show that the average collector who buys things that the average collector likes would have fared really well compared to what they could have made elsewhere. And therein lies a major flaw with investing in comics - buying what you like often does not lead to the best investment opportunities, and emotional/nostalgic attachments can also lead you to overpaying on entry and/or holding on too long (among numerous other pitfalls).

 

But, hey, knock yourselves out - I'm just having a polite conversation here, not trying to sell anybody anything or talking my book. (shrug)

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Jaydogrules

Jaydogrules

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Geez, guys, it's not that complicated. :facepalm:

Cherry picking illustrations in hindsight (20/20) is probably the worst way to make any argument about future investments (sadly, it's very popular in the investing world, though). Instead of saying what about the 'average' comic investor who bought walking dead 1, 10 years ago, or as an analogy to stocks, what about the 'average' investor who bought AAPL 10 years ago , it makes far more sense to point out to some type of index or basket of investments as a reference... the longer, preferably, the better. This is a better proxy for what any 'average' investor bought.

 

(thumbs u

 

That's why I started the list off showing the 5-year return of the S&P 500 (+136%; incidentally, the Nasdaq QQQ ETF returned 172% and the Russell 2000 ETF returned 150%), which is about as representative of an "average" stock market investment you can get, and then listed a lot of large-cap, household name companies. If I wanted to, I could have easily cherry picked a bunch of quadruple-digit 5-year winners that would be the equivalent of picking Atlas horror comics, but these are things that hardly any investors would have known about or considered 5 years ago.

 

Saying that the average collector would have had any idea to buy the stuff that Richard listed 5 years ago is a wild stretch, to say the least. That list certainly does not show that the average collector who buys things that the average collector likes would have fared really well compared to what they could have made elsewhere. And therein lies a major flaw with investing in comics - buying what you like often does not lead to the best investment opportunities, and emotional/nostalgic attachments can also lead you to overpaying on entry and/or holding on too long (among numerous other pitfalls).

 

But, hey, knock yourselves out - I'm just having a polite conversation here, not trying to sell anybody anything or talking my book. (shrug)

 

...and again, your quotes on the stock market are including history making, not likely to be repeated in our generation returns in basically a one year period. By almost all measures the stock market is over heated, bloated, rife with speculation and over flowing with over valued stocks with P/E ratios so out of whack it's scary. Investing in DOW at 17k? No thanks. I'll wait until the FED stops propping it up with its free money policy, and in the meantime enjoy holding my beloved GA/SA/BA/CA/MA keys in the palm of my hands. :cloud9:

 

-J.

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