Mylar + microchamber paper

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I think I am going to have to put together a stock answer to the 7 year question.

 

Let me find my last couple posts on this...

 

The short answer is: in almost all cases, other than books which are already experiencing significant acidification, the MCP does not need to be replaced in 7 years.

[divad]

My use is limited to SA books; although a good idea on BA and CA, I've personally never had any tanning or browning issues with these books (and BA books are now 40+ years old). Production methods and paper quality were significantly different before 1975.

 

Newsprint was essentially unchanged until Baxter paper in the early/mid 80s

 

I am aware of Baxter paper's introduction as well as other types of paper used later, but generalities are never accurate - There was variability between newsprint used by different printers, different paper used for cover stock, different inks, differences ad nauseum. The key word in your statement is "essentially".

[divad]

All different sizes pre-cut and in stock

My personal preferences:

 

0 pieces in drek

1 piece in Modern keepers

2 pieces in modern keys

2-3 pieces in newsprint keepers, depending on state of preservation

5 pieces in newsprint keys (behind covers, centerfold, at 25 and 75%)

5 pieces in newsprint books that are high value due to state of preservation (dripping colors, white pages, etc.)

 

PM sent

 

This, of course, is from the guy who sells the razor blades. Total overkill, imho.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

It is pretty consistent with CGC's usage, other than with keys, where I prefer the added protection.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

My use is limited to SA books; although a good idea on BA and CA, I've personally never had any tanning or browning issues with these books (and BA books are now 40+ years old). Production methods and paper quality were significantly different before 1975.

 

Newsprint was essentially unchanged until Baxter paper in the early/mid 80s

 

I am aware of Baxter paper's introduction as well as other types of paper used later, but generalities are never accurate - There was variability between newsprint used by different printers, different paper used for cover stock, different inks, differences ad nauseum. The key word in your statement is "essentially".

 

All newsprint is acidic. Minimizing acidic degradation is the number one priority for maintaining the state of preservation of newsprint. Thus it seemed odd to use a 1975 date when newsprint was still the most common paper used for comics well into the late 80's.

[shadroch]

What happens to a piece of paper after it reaches the saturation point?

 

A Micro Chamber sheet can only hold some much waste and you don't want polluntants to bleed backon to your preservation project over time, so just check the sheets and replace them as needed.

 

 

Lets assume we are not so anal as to reslab the books every seven years.

In that case, in the long run is it better to have a slab that never had the paper in it or a slab that is now long past its saturation point? Do they really bleed back on the books?

In other words, which would be better if we stuck the slab in a time capsule to open in fifty years?

[newshane]

If i were to slab a book and the inner well was mylar and i did not include mcp, how long before the book starts to eat itself?

 

It will outlast our lifetimes by decades.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

What happens to a piece of paper after it reaches the saturation point?

 

A Micro Chamber sheet can only hold some much waste and you don't want polluntants to bleed backon to your preservation project over time, so just check the sheets and replace them as needed.

 

 

Lets assume we are not so anal as to reslab the books every seven years.

In that case, in the long run is it better to have a slab that never had the paper in it or a slab that is now long past its saturation point? Do they really bleed back on the books?

In other words, which would be better if we stuck the slab in a time capsule to open in fifty years?

 

I don't know where they are getting their use of the term "saturation point". There is a limit to how much acid, microchamber paper can absorb. However, that limit is approximately 170 times that of the equivalent buffered paper. But there is no point where MCP will suddenly release all of the pent up pollutants, oxidants and acids they have absorbed throughout their life. It won't bleed back onto books.

[shadroch]

What happens to a piece of paper after it reaches the saturation point?

 

A Micro Chamber sheet can only hold some much waste and you don't want polluntants to bleed backon to your preservation project over time, so just check the sheets and replace them as needed.

 

 

Lets assume we are not so anal as to reslab the books every seven years.

In that case, in the long run is it better to have a slab that never had the paper in it or a slab that is now long past its saturation point? Do they really bleed back on the books?

In other words, which would be better if we stuck the slab in a time capsule to open in fifty years?

 

I don't know where they are getting their use of the term "saturation point". There is a limit to how much acid, microchamber paper can absorb. However, that limit is approximately 170 times that of the equivalent buffered paper. But there is no point where MCP will suddenly release all of the pent up pollutants, oxidants and acids they have absorbed throughout their life. It won't bleed back onto books.

 

 

I dont have a dog in this fight, but CGCs own website disagrees with you

[InvstmntComcSuply]

citation?

 

They also say you should reholder your books every 7 years to replace the mcp. Which we know is extreme overkill.

[Illustrious]

What happens to a piece of paper after it reaches the saturation point?

 

A Micro Chamber sheet can only hold some much waste and you don't want polluntants to bleed backon to your preservation project over time, so just check the sheets and replace them as needed.

 

 

Lets assume we are not so anal as to reslab the books every seven years.

In that case, in the long run is it better to have a slab that never had the paper in it or a slab that is now long past its saturation point? Do they really bleed back on the books?

In other words, which would be better if we stuck the slab in a time capsule to open in fifty years?

 

I don't know where they are getting their use of the term "saturation point". There is a limit to how much acid, microchamber paper can absorb. However, that limit is approximately 170 times that of the equivalent buffered paper. But there is no point where MCP will suddenly release all of the pent up pollutants, oxidants and acids they have absorbed throughout their life. It won't bleed back onto books.

 

 

I dont have a dog in this fight, but CGCs own website disagrees with you

 

CGC probably just wants some reslabbing fees every seven years, I don't put too much stock into what they say at this point.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

If i were to slab a book and the inner well was mylar and i did not include mcp, how long before the book starts to eat itself?

 

It will outlast our lifetimes by decades.

 

It will start to eat itself the next day.

 

Now you have a range you can deal with.

 

The problem is the question does not have defined terms.

 

If you put a buffered book in mylar it will probably be decades before you would see any browning to the paper. If you put an off white newsprint book in Mylar it would begin eating away at itself immediately. Mylar is a great gas barier and acts to seal any acids already in the comic, inside the bag. Once sealed in, they accelerate the aging of the paper. Now, how long would it take to see noticeable browning? It really depends on how acidic the book was to begin with, storage temperature, etc.

[shadroch]

My apology.

 

It is from this site, which I thought was part of the Collectors Society website.

[shadroch]

What happens to a piece of paper after it reaches the saturation point?

 

A Micro Chamber sheet can only hold some much waste and you don't want polluntants to bleed backon to your preservation project over time, so just check the sheets and replace them as needed.

 

 

Lets assume we are not so anal as to reslab the books every seven years.

In that case, in the long run is it better to have a slab that never had the paper in it or a slab that is now long past its saturation point? Do they really bleed back on the books?

In other words, which would be better if we stuck the slab in a time capsule to open in fifty years?

 

I don't know where they are getting their use of the term "saturation point". There is a limit to how much acid, microchamber paper can absorb. However, that limit is approximately 170 times that of the equivalent buffered paper. But there is no point where MCP will suddenly release all of the pent up pollutants, oxidants and acids they have absorbed throughout their life. It won't bleed back onto books.

 

 

I dont have a dog in this fight, but CGCs own website disagrees with you

 

CGC probably just wants some reslabbing fees every seven years, I don't put too much stock into what they say at this point.

 

As opposed to someone who sells the paper?

 

I've heard CGCs take on it, I've heard from the person who sells the paper. Both make good cases for their side. Now I want to find out why the other guys chose not to include a nickels worth of stuff in their slabs.

For myself, my books will all be in other hands in the next twenty years so I dont care one way or the other.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

When asking for a citation, I was only requesting a link to the page where CGC disagreed with me. If there is any disagreement, I would be happy to address it. However, I have been here several years (under the screen name of "grinin") and the ONLY thing I recall disagreeing with them regarding microchamber paper is the 7 year replacement recommendation.

 

[Tom473]

I think my mind is made up, too many great collections out there that never used MCP and I don't have the time or money to re slab my books every 7-10 years. I want my preservation to last decades so long as I store under proper conditions.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I think there is some confusion here.

The page you referenced above is NOT from CGC

The "Collectors Society Member" badge at the top of their website is NOT an endorsement by CGC. Every free member of the boards, journals or registry is a Collectors Society Member. You can get your own badge to put on your website Here

 

The statements "avoid toxin feedback." and "you don't want polluntants to bleed backon to your preservation project" are indicative of a lack of understanding of how microchamber or for that matter any alkaline paper (such as fullbacks) works to preserve your comics.

 

Ink transer does not significantly diminish the pollutant/acid neutralizing effectiveness of microchamber paper.

 

NONE of those statements were made or endorsed by CGC. It is just part of a website that two guys put together. And if spelling or grammar are any indication ....

 

 

 

http://www.comicpreservation.com

 

Excerpt:

 

Note: It is best to replace these sheet every few years, to avoid toxin feedback. Sometimes you will see shading on the sheets over time, which is the toxins bleeding on the Micro Chamber paper from the comic. A Micro Chamber sheet can only hold some much waste and you don't want polluntants to bleed backon to your preservation project over time, so just check the sheets and replace them as needed.

[shadroch]

From another chat room.

MicroChamber paper is misunderstood, mostly because people get their information on its effectiveness from the people who make it. It is an extremely effective archival tool that preserves paper well by boosting local environmental resistance to the by-products of deterioration, acid and other pollutants. However, they also like to make it seem as though without it everything will turn to dust in 20 years, which is complete and total bullsh*t.

 

I have a copy of Great Comics #1 from 1945. CGC graded it as 9.6. The staples are free of rust, the pages are white, and the book is otherwise perfectly preserved. How did it stay in such excellent shape? Well, it sat in a warehouse... for 60 years. No special alkaline buffer... no Mylar... no MicroChamber pages neatly tucked between the covers and the pages. It just sat there, undisturbed, in a cool and dark place. Again... for 60 years.

 

That copy is my proof that all the expensive archival gimmicks in the world can be used, but at the end of the day, keeping your books bagged and boarded and cool and dry and out of the way of smoke and other damaging pollutants is just fine.

 

And significantly cheaper.

 

- See more at: http://comicspriceguide.com/boards/243561/MicroChamber-Paper#sthash.dZmSRGwF.dpuf

 

 

I dont know anyone who used microchamber in their books prior to CGC coming around. My friend had one of the most extensive collections I've ever seen- Action 1, all the pre-Robin Tecs, and a nice Timely run and he didn't use it. Church didn't use it, nor did anyone I know of.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I've responded to that post before. I'll do a little copy/paste but I am curious if you thought the page linked earlier was CGC's stance on microchamber paper?

 

Environment is especially critical. If we could all afford to keep our books at a constant 60 degrees and 45% relative humidity, in a pollutant free atmosphere, and they are already bone white, they will likely stay that way. Unfortunately, optimal environmental storage conditions are not common.

 

Collections are stored in a range of environmental conditions. On one side you have something akin to the Savannah pedigree. Which although they were clearly well protected structurally, as seen in the numbers in the upper left corner, they were also clearly not as well preserved as other pedigrees, as evidenced by the paucity of White page books as opposed to Cream to Off White books in the collection. At the other end of the range you have the Curator pedigree. Where on the curve of environmental conditions does your collection sit?

 

How many white page pedigrees come out of the South?

 

The other issue is: a book that already has minor acid damage, say for example, OW pages, the acetic acid in the book doesn't go away, it autocatalyzes and creates more acetic acid, causing further degradation. Microchamber paper absorbs the acidic precursors released by the existing acid in the book, before they can become additional acetic acid. It also absorbs and neutralizes other common oxidants and acidic gases. Fullbacks don't do any of this.

[Dr. Balls]

Microchamber paper absorbs the acidic precursors released by the existing acid in the book, before they can become additional acetic acid. It also absorbs and neutralizes other common oxidants and acidic gases. Fullbacks don't do any of this.

 

I had a horribly stinky Strange Tales/Warlock book in my personal collection - really nice copy, but it stunk to high hell. I put MCP in it maybe three years ago? Pulled it out a few months ago to take a look at it - and it didn't stink. It didn't smell fresh like a white pager, but it didn't smell like it'd been stored in a damp basement for 30 years.

 

At first, I thought I had the wrong book, so I pulled out all four and none of them smelled. So for me, I'm a believer of MCP because I've smelt how it worked.