Mylar + microchamber paper

[Ze-man]

Regardless of current storage environments, differing slabs, or where the books originated from.

 

More often then not, we buy, ship, and display the comics we love countless times..... even pedigree comics that were typically stored in a unique environment for decades allowing them to survive in the manner they did. Then we display them at Cons, ship them around the world, subjecting them to such a wide degree of temperature and humidity conditions that I cannot fathom not wanting to have some sort of alkaline buffer between the cover and interior. Especially on key books, where the interior may already be OW/Tan.

 

Same reason why I get more and more books in to be de-acidified, people want to neutralize the acids inherently found in aging newsprint before it becomes worse.

 

For me personally, MCP isn't for every book, but considering how cheap it is on a per book basis it has always made sense to use it on books that if nothing else, would help them remain as stable as possible over the long haul.

 

It isn't as much about the next decade or two, but more after we are gone.

 

OK, so that said maybe I wont put MCP in my Liefield Images I bought back in the day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Balls]

OK, so that said maybe I wont put MCP in my Liefield Images I bought back in the day.

 

That raises a question for me: is MCP beneficial to newer gloss papers utilized in the 90's up?

 

I'm talking about the stuff Image used, etc - up to moderns. I put MCP in my Image books just because I'm in the habit, but I always wondered - are those papers acid-free like other regular gloss papers used in printing?

[Tony S]

I doubt my research has been exhaustive, but the only places I've found that speak strongly about Microchamber papers archival benefits are places that also sell it. More neutral type sites talk about it being effective in removing odors. For instance, The North East Document Conservation Center is linked in the Library of Congress's website. NEDCC discusses using Microchamber paper for odor absorption, but not for archival purposes. I cannot find any reference to microchamber paper on the Library of Congress's website. They do talk about conserving paper documents of course, but nearly always in terms storage conditions or changing the PH of the paper itself.

 

http://www.nedcc.org/free-resources/ask-nedcc/faqs

http://www.rarebooksdigest.com/2012/09/17/rare-book-conservation-tips-and-techniques-2/

 

conservationresources.com (company based in the United Kingdom) is very big on MicroChamber paper and has tests to back up it's benefits. I'm not qualified to say if the tests are fundamentally sound. However I can see that the tests all are designed around introducing large amounts of pollutants into a sealed case, artificially aging the paper and then doing fold tests. But these tests don't seem to mimic real world conditions. - collectors don't intentionally store their books in an environment that is artificially polluted and hot. For our purposes, the microchamber paper is mostly just absorbing outgassing of the paper itself. If collectors are showing any good sense, the books are already stored in temperature, humidity and light controlled environments. Things that the Library of Congress stresses. You would basically have to store your books in a diesel mechanic's garage during a hot Florida summer to duplicate the test conditions. conservationresources.com sells microchamber paper.

 

I think it's 100% accurate and safe to say that MicroChamber paper will not do any harm and may do some good. There has long been a debate as to just how much good it really does.

[Gunnz]

I was asking this a while ago.

I decided that my post 90's books i'll use MCP between front/back covers and the center in Mylar, but anything post 90's is made from much better paper whether it be acid free or not.

 

I'm not worried about my current books yellowing.

 

It's pretty cheap though, so whatever floats your boat really.

 

 

[divad]

I doubt my research has been exhaustive, but the only places I've found that speak strongly about Microchamber papers archival benefits are places that also sell it. More neutral type sites talk about it being effective in removing odors. For instance, The North East Document Conservation Center is linked in the Library of Congress's website. NEDCC discusses using Microchamber paper for odor absorption, but not for archival purposes. I cannot find any reference to microchamber paper on the Library of Congress's website. They do talk about conserving paper documents of course, but nearly always in terms storage conditions or changing the PH of the paper itself.

 

http://www.nedcc.org/free-resources/ask-nedcc/faqs

http://www.rarebooksdigest.com/2012/09/17/rare-book-conservation-tips-and-techniques-2/

 

conservationresources.com (company based in the United Kingdom) is very big on MicroChamber paper and has tests to back up it's benefits. I'm not qualified to say if the tests are fundamentally sound. However I can see that the tests all are designed around introducing large amounts of pollutants into a sealed case, artificially aging the paper and then doing fold tests. But these tests don't seem to mimic real world conditions. - collectors don't intentionally store their books in an environment that is artificially polluted and hot. For our purposes, the microchamber paper is mostly just absorbing outgassing of the paper itself. If collectors are showing any good sense, the books are already stored in temperature, humidity and light controlled environments. Things that the Library of Congress stresses. You would basically have to store your books in a diesel mechanic's garage during a hot Florida summer to duplicate the test conditions. conservationresources.com sells microchamber paper.

 

I think it's 100% accurate and safe to say that MicroChamber paper will not do any harm and may do some good. There has long been a debate as to just how much good it really does.

 

Excellent post! (thumbs u

[divad]

OK, so that said maybe I wont put MCP in my Liefield Images I bought back in the day.

 

That raises a question for me: is MCP beneficial to newer gloss papers utilized in the 90's up?

 

I'm talking about the stuff Image used, etc - up to moderns. I put MCP in my Image books just because I'm in the habit, but I always wondered - are those papers acid-free like other regular gloss papers used in printing?

 

I seriously doubt it.

[divad]

From another chat room.

MicroChamber paper is misunderstood, mostly because people get their information on its effectiveness from the people who make it. It is an extremely effective archival tool that preserves paper well by boosting local environmental resistance to the by-products of deterioration, acid and other pollutants. However, they also like to make it seem as though without it everything will turn to dust in 20 years, which is complete and total bullsh*t.

 

I have a copy of Great Comics #1 from 1945. CGC graded it as 9.6. The staples are free of rust, the pages are white, and the book is otherwise perfectly preserved. How did it stay in such excellent shape? Well, it sat in a warehouse... for 60 years. No special alkaline buffer... no Mylar... no MicroChamber pages neatly tucked between the covers and the pages. It just sat there, undisturbed, in a cool and dark place. Again... for 60 years.

 

That copy is my proof that all the expensive archival gimmicks in the world can be used, but at the end of the day, keeping your books bagged and boarded and cool and dry and out of the way of smoke and other damaging pollutants is just fine.

 

And significantly cheaper.

 

- See more at: http://comicspriceguide.com/boards/243561/MicroChamber-Paper#sthash.dZmSRGwF.dpuf

 

 

I dont know anyone who used microchamber in their books prior to CGC coming around. My friend had one of the most extensive collections I've ever seen- Action 1, all the pre-Robin Tecs, and a nice Timely run and he didn't use it. Church didn't use it, nor did anyone I know of.

 

Bill

[divad]

 

Environment is especially critical. If we could all afford to keep our books at a constant 60 degrees and 45% relative humidity, in a pollutant free atmosphere, and they are already bone white, they will likely stay that way. Unfortunately, optimal environmental storage conditions are not common.

 

Collections are stored in a range of environmental conditions. On one side you have something akin to the Savannah pedigree. Which although they were clearly well protected structurally, as seen in the numbers in the upper left corner, they were also clearly not as well preserved as other pedigrees, as evidenced by the paucity of White page books as opposed to Cream to Off White books in the collection. At the other end of the range you have the Curator pedigree. Where on the curve of environmental conditions does your collection sit?

 

How many white page pedigrees come out of the South?

 

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that environment is the key factor.

 

The other issue is: a book that already has minor acid damage, say for example, OW pages, the acetic acid in the book doesn't go away, it autocatalyzes and creates more acetic acid, causing further degradation. Microchamber paper absorbs the acidic precursors released by the existing acid in the book, before they can become additional acetic acid. It also absorbs and neutralizes other common oxidants and acidic gases. Fullbacks don't do any of this.

 

True, but I don't believe your statement about buffered Fullbacks is correct. Don't you sell them as well?

[Dr. Balls]

OK, so that said maybe I wont put MCP in my Liefield Images I bought back in the day.

 

That raises a question for me: is MCP beneficial to newer gloss papers utilized in the 90's up?

 

I'm talking about the stuff Image used, etc - up to moderns. I put MCP in my Image books just because I'm in the habit, but I always wondered - are those papers acid-free like other regular gloss papers used in printing?

 

I seriously doubt it.

 

Yeah, I can't even imagine seeing those papers get yellow or produce odor.

[mschmidt]

I doubt my research has been exhaustive, but the only places I've found that speak strongly about Microchamber papers archival benefits are places that also sell it. More neutral type sites talk about it being effective in removing odors. For instance, The North East Document Conservation Center is linked in the Library of Congress's website. NEDCC discusses using Microchamber paper for odor absorption, but not for archival purposes. I cannot find any reference to microchamber paper on the Library of Congress's website. They do talk about conserving paper documents of course, but nearly always in terms storage conditions or changing the PH of the paper itself.

 

The reason the LoC doesn't use micro-chamber paper for comics is because it isn't necessary for them - they've chemically de-acidified every single comic book in their permanent collection.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that environment is the key factor.

 

So why use an example of a book that "just sat there, undisturbed, in a cool and dark place. Again... for 60 years".as the reasoning for why there is no need to do anything to protect your collection? Why not sitting in a closet in Florida where the AC is around 76 when we are here and 80 when we are away? Or where there are daily temperature fluctuations of 5+ degrees? Or where you are storing books in a building where the walls or anything else is painted, there is wood, cardboard, carpet, particle board, cleaning supplies, combustion is used for cooking or heating, and any other number of contributors to indoor air pollution?

 

The other issue is: a book that already has minor acid damage, say for example, OW pages, the acetic acid in the book doesn't go away, it autocatalyzes and creates more acetic acid, causing further degradation. Microchamber paper absorbs the acidic precursors released by the existing acid in the book, before they can become additional acetic acid. It also absorbs and neutralizes other common oxidants and acidic gases. Fullbacks don't do any of this.

 

True, but I don't believe your statement about buffered Fullbacks is correct. Don't you sell them as well?

 

Yes, I do! They are the best combination of structural support and alkaline reserve available! However, I can not make them into something they are not.

MicroChamber products do provide protection against common oxidative and acid gaseous pollutants such as ozone (O3), oxides of nitrogen (NOx, NO, NO2), sulfur dioxide (SO2), as well as H2S, CS2, ammonia, formaldehyde, peroxides and a great many other such molecules which can harm collections. The traditional alkaline buffers in conservation papers do not react with or remove these deleterious molecules. Furthermore, such molecules can pass unaffected through even the thickest buffered boards

 

Source: Guttman, C. M. and Jewett, K. C. 1993 Protection of Archival Materials from Pollutants: Diffusion of Sulfur Dioxide through Boxboard, Journal of the American Institute for Conservation 32:81-91

[FFB]

Sorry I'm so late to this thread. I'm on vacation and was summoned here like four days ago.

 

Watson, where are you getting the information that Barex-210 off-gasses? It's an inert plastic (meaning no off-gassing) that worked well with CGC's ultrasonic sealing method, which is why Steve Borock told me that CGC chose it way back when.

 

The Microchamber paper isn't intended to absorb off-gassing from the CGC holder. It is intended to absorb acidic byproducts of the high-lignin-content comic book newsprint that is breaking down over time and releasing those byproducts into the rest of the paper, eventually causing a chain reaction and resulting in brittle paper. Being trapped inside the microclimate of a CGC or other company's holder concentrates those harmful byproducts and accelerates the aging process. That's why the Library of Congress and other conservators recommend placing some kind of a buffer within any enclosure that contains lignin-content paper.

 

Yes, if the book was manufactured with higher quality lignin-content newsprint (like GA DCs), has fresh pages, and is stored properly, Microchamber paper isn't going to make much difference for a good while, until the paper eventually breaks down just because decades have gone by. It won't make a difference on a modern book stored properly for a good long time either. But on a lot of books that don't have White pages and have begun some level of the degradation process, the Microchamber paper definitely helps arrest the decline. There's a lot of science behind how Microchamber paper works and it has a great reputation among conservators for its impurity-absorbing abilities compared to any other buffer out there.

 

In my opinion, CBCS should add at least one or two sheets of MCP dead center of the book, if nothing else.

 

If i were to slab a book and the inner well was mylar and i did not include mcp, how long before the book starts to eat itself?

The book will not eat itself. Books will last for years in nothing but a Mylar and a backing board. The environment in which the book stored is more crucial to page quality longevity than microchamber paper.

 

The point of mcp is to primarily trap the off gassing of the Barex, not the book.

[FFB]

Full Backs don't have activated carbon. MCP does. That's why it's so effective not just at absorbing pollutants by the truckload compared to Full Backs and other alkaline-only-buffered paper, but also at neutralizing pollutants. That's also why they can neutralize entire classes of pollutants that aren't affected by the calcium carbonate buffer in a Full Back. (Which the MCP also has too.)

 

I agree with the people who have said it's not a crisis for there not to be MCP in any given book, and that a proper AND consistent storage environment is the most important issue. But for books that have already significantly deteriorated page quality, MCP helps arrest the chain reaction that occurs from internal or external chemicals and pollutants.

 

But store your books in a relatively dry, cool, dark place before you worry about how many pieces of MCP to put into all your books.

 

And CBCS should be adding MCP to all of its slabs. The end.

 

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that environment is the key factor.

 

So why use an example of a book that "just sat there, undisturbed, in a cool and dark place. Again... for 60 years".as the reasoning for why there is no need to do anything to protect your collection? Why not sitting in a closet in Florida where the AC is around 76 when we are here and 80 when we are away? Or where there are daily temperature fluctuations of 5+ degrees? Or where you are storing books in a building where the walls or anything else is painted, there is wood, cardboard, carpet, particle board, cleaning supplies, combustion is used for cooking or heating, and any other number of contributors to indoor air pollution?

 

The other issue is: a book that already has minor acid damage, say for example, OW pages, the acetic acid in the book doesn't go away, it autocatalyzes and creates more acetic acid, causing further degradation. Microchamber paper absorbs the acidic precursors released by the existing acid in the book, before they can become additional acetic acid. It also absorbs and neutralizes other common oxidants and acidic gases. Fullbacks don't do any of this.

 

True, but I don't believe your statement about buffered Fullbacks is correct. Don't you sell them as well?

 

Yes, I do! They are the best combination of structural support and alkaline reserve available! However, I can not make them into something they are not.

MicroChamber products do provide protection against common oxidative and acid gaseous pollutants such as ozone (O3), oxides of nitrogen (NOx, NO, NO2), sulfur dioxide (SO2), as well as H2S, CS2, ammonia, formaldehyde, peroxides and a great many other such molecules which can harm collections. The traditional alkaline buffers in conservation papers do not react with or remove these deleterious molecules. Furthermore, such molecules can pass unaffected through even the thickest buffered boards

 

Source: Guttman, C. M. and Jewett, K. C. 1993 Protection of Archival Materials from Pollutants: Diffusion of Sulfur Dioxide through Boxboard, Journal of the American Institute for Conservation 32:81-91

[Tony S]

S That's why the Library of Congress and other conservators recommend placing some kind of a buffer within any enclosure that contains lignin-content paper.

 

In my opinion, CBCS should add at least one or two sheets of MCP dead center of the book, if nothing else.

 

I cannot find any reference to MCP at the Library of Congress website. They have a link to the Northeast Document Conservation Center. In their FAQ's, NEDCC only mentions MCP as an effective method to absorb odors.

 

CGC doesn't place it's MCP in the center of the book. Moderns often get one sheet, front or back. Everything else gets two sheets - in between the front and back covers. Do you believe the placement of the sheets makes a difference?

[Amadeus Arkham]

So the Library of Congress would be getting all PLODs?

[Tony S]

So the Library of Congress would be getting all PLODs?

T

I think your question is in response to mschmidt's statement about the Library of Congress chemically deacidifying books?

 

IDK. An interesting question. First a third party grading company would need to be able to determine it was done.

 

Wei T'O makes a deacidification spray and they used to make a paper (Vapor Phase Deacidification) that you would put a sheet of in a comic, seal it up wait a period of time. The treatment with VPD paper was mostly undetectable except for an odor and it usually yellowed the paper slightly.

 

Talas is the go to supplier for a lot of conservation professionals. They sell interleaving paper and tissue - buffered and unbuffered - for insertion in books/magazines. They do NOT sell microchamber paper.

[mschmidt]

So the Library of Congress would be getting all PLODs?

T

I think your question is in response to mschmidt's statement about the Library of Congress chemically deacidifying books?

 

IDK. An interesting question. First a third party grading company would need to be able to determine it was done.

 

Wei T'O makes a deacidification spray and they used to make a paper (Vapor Phase Deacidification) that you would put a sheet of in a comic, seal it up wait a period of time. The treatment with VPD paper was mostly undetectable except for an odor and it usually yellowed the paper slightly.

 

Talas is the go to supplier for a lot of conservation professionals. They sell interleaving paper and tissue - buffered and unbuffered - for insertion in books/magazines. They do NOT sell microchamber paper.

 

The LoC hired Preservation Technologies for the deacidification project - they bonded particles of magnesium oxide with the paper (similar to what their Archival Mist spray does). It's a chemical process which is easily detectable, so, yes, these books would all come back GLODs.

 

Tony - you keep referring to the fact that LoC doesn't mention microchamber paper on their site. Microchamber paper is a trademarked name for a zeolite molecular trap, similar to the one they used to mount this map:

 

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0309/conserve.html

 

There's no question that MCP is beneficial for archival storage of newsprint when the item in question hasn't been deacidified.

[Amadeus Arkham]

Is there a list somewhere of what comic books the LOC has in their collection?

[shadroch]

From the LOC website

 

The Library’s Serial and Government Publications Division contains the world's largest collection of comic books (5,000 titles; 100,000 issues). The oldest comic book in the collection is “Popular Comics,” February 1936. The division also holds the world's most extensive newspaper collection. The oldest original newspaper in the collection is "Mercurius Publicas Comprising the Sum of Forraign Intelligence," December 29, 1659..

 

 

100,000 comics is far from the worlds largest. I dont know about the 5,000 titles.

[VintageComics]

If i were to slab a book and the inner well was mylar and i did not include mcp, how long before the book starts to eat itself?

 

It will outlast our lifetimes by decades.

 

It will start to eat itself the next day.

 

Now you have a range you can deal with.

 

The problem is the question does not have defined terms.

 

If you put a buffered book in mylar it will probably be decades before you would see any browning to the paper. If you put an off white newsprint book in Mylar it would begin eating away at itself immediately. Mylar is a great gas barier and acts to seal any acids already in the comic, inside the bag. Once sealed in, they accelerate the aging of the paper. Now, how long would it take to see noticeable browning? It really depends on how acidic the book was to begin with, storage temperature, etc.

 

That's been my experience as well, after looking at collections that were housed in Fortresses with no MCP for decades. The browning was noticeable.