Should auction sites be auctioning off counterfeit books?

[Erndog]

Doesn't the label counterfeit actually HELP someone from being royally taken?

 

It's clear as day. It says counterfeit on it. If someone wants it, then go for it.

 

Not as clear when at a show behind a buncha other books on a showcase, etc. And not everyone is as knowledgable about how to spot the fakes.

[jimbo_707]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

[BEAUMONTS]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

So does this take CGC from the "Grader " of a perceived variant to a form of a accomplice in the "marketing" of a counterfeit product?

[Davenport]

So CGC has determined there are good counterfeits and bad ones.

I don't really care about the controversy one way or the other, just to point out it's the only guarantee CGC gives. (empasis mine)

CGC guarantees that a comic book encapsulated in a CGC holder is authentic and has been inspected by at least two professionals.

 

To be fair "authentic" may be purposeful legalese, since you can have an "authentic" counterfeit. (did it used to state "is genuine" at one time?)

 

**edit: Yep, I just checked the back of an old label and it state "is genuine", so the change to "authentic" probably provides a different legal definition and wiggle room.

[Dr. Balls]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

[Dr. Balls]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

So does this take CGC from the "Grader " of a perceived variant to a form of a accomplice in the "marketing" of a counterfeit product?

 

I would assume their status is that they are not selling, reselling or distributing the item in question. At most, it would be that they are 'identifying' it.

[Ryan.]

[Boboset]

I thought notorious counterfeits like this book and Cerebus #1 always received a 'NG' grade? When did this change?

 

Not a fan. At all.

 

I see this book was graded 7/28/14...

 

No, CGC has always graded the counterfeits (Cerebus #1, TMNT #1, Cry for Dawn #1) just like any other books. I personally think they're an interesting part of comic book history :shrug:

 

 

 

 

My mistake. I do think they're an interesting part of comic book history. I've known about that Cerebus counterfeit since I was about 12.

 

I don't fault anyone for selling them as long as they are sold as counterfeits or for collecting them. I do not think that CGC should give a numerical grade for any counterfeit book regardless of history.

 

So CGC has determined there are good counterfeits and bad ones.

Exactly.

 

 

[oakman29]

CGC graded a counterfeit X-Men #94 as a NG:

 

 

 

Obvious counterfeit,there's no white on the spine.

[Fan Boy]

So CGC has determined there are good counterfeits and bad ones.

 

That's the part I don't get. They should all get the same designation. It would be interesting to find a counterfeit X-Men 94, crack it and compare the differences to the book, as well as try to determine why CGC gives it a NG instead of a grade.

 

+1 Same with me, I don't get the part on this topic. Why give a grade on a counterfeit? It should get a NG regardless what its condition is - a counterfeit is a counterfeit IS a counterfeit. Period.

 

Granted, that there is some sort of history on famous comic book counterfeits - like the Cerberus # 1. But in the end it's still a fake! That's my take and my opinion ... CGC should only issue a NG to all counterfeits - no real grades, they don't earn that!

[steveinthecity]

I'd rather it be in a slab than not and clearly labeled as counterfeit. Doesn't this protect the buyer?

 

Corrupt sellers would not label it as such and try to pass it off as authentic (if in fact they realized it was a counterfeit).

Great point. Also I'd agree with Dr. Balls & others that counterfeit books should receive a "NG" designation. The reality is that part of me doesn't want to see a scenario where at some point I'm paying more for a counterfeit copy of Cerebus #1 9.0 than an original in a 6.5 holder. I understand their place in comics history, but still...

[passion4comics]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

 

I also believe it applies to the buyer not being aware of it being counterfeit. A ton of artwork back in the 1990's was seized and stamped FALSO on the rear because it was counterfeit. Then it was auctioned off by the Fed as counterfeit art. I bought one to examine it to figure out how it was made for my own knowledge.

 

It's legal to sell counterfeit goods (art) as long as it is disclosed; our own government auctioned it off. I would assume the same would be true for comics because there is no actual loss to the publisher where a counterfeit handbag or DVD has a direct loss to the patent/trademark/copyright holder.

 

The price this book is up to shows there is either a collector base or the high bidder will crack it out and sell it raw. Take your pick. For $100 I would buy it just to examine it. Look at Gobbledygook #1 on EBay right now graded 9.0. What are the chances that book is real? Heritage has sold around 4 raw? CGC has 30 on the census. One legit copy sold on EBay and one seller here had a legit copy. What are the chances of this one being one of the lost 14 left?

 

There is a collector base for everything.

[Dr. Balls]

CGC graded a counterfeit X-Men #94 as a NG:

 

 

 

Obvious counterfeit,there's no white on the spine.

 

All joking aside, in order for most people to make a legitimate counterfeit - they have to allow around .125" for bleed when they are making the cover. That means that the artwork they have (which is generally a scan of an actual book) has to increase in size by 5% or so in order to get that bleed to make an accurate trim. You can compare the difference of this counterfeit to the original with the yellow bar next to the Comics Code, and how it relates to how much of the white shows up on the spine.

 

If the counterfeiter had original artwork to go from, they would be able to keep the correct scale of the book, but they almost never do - so the scale of the artwork in counterfeits can be an easy giveaway.

[mschmidt]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

 

I also believe it applies to the buyer not being aware of it being counterfeit. A ton of artwork back in the 1990's was seized and stamped FALSO on the rear because it was counterfeit. Then it was auctioned off by the Fed as counterfeit art. I bought one to examine it to figure out how it was made for my own knowledge.

 

It's legal to sell counterfeit goods (art) as long as it is disclosed; our own government auctioned it off. I would assume the same would be true for comics because there is no actual loss to the publisher where a counterfeit handbag or DVD has a direct loss to the patent/trademark/copyright holder.

 

The price this book is up to shows there is either a collector base or the high bidder will crack it out and sell it raw. Take your pick. For $100 I would buy it just to examine it. Look at Gobbledygook #1 on EBay right now graded 9.0. What are the chances that book is real? Heritage has sold around 4 raw? CGC has 30 on the census. One legit copy sold on EBay and one seller here had a legit copy. What are the chances of this one being one of the lost 14 left?

 

There is a collector base for everything.

 

You're confusing the 1984 b&w Gobbledygook #1 (of which counterfeit copies are also known to exist) with the 1986 anthology book of the same name - CGC won't grade the 1984 book due it to being b&w and having photocopied pages.

[wardevil0]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

 

I also believe it applies to the buyer not being aware of it being counterfeit. A ton of artwork back in the 1990's was seized and stamped FALSO on the rear because it was counterfeit. Then it was auctioned off by the Fed as counterfeit art. I bought one to examine it to figure out how it was made for my own knowledge.

 

It's legal to sell counterfeit goods (art) as long as it is disclosed; our own government auctioned it off. I would assume the same would be true for comics because there is no actual loss to the publisher where a counterfeit handbag or DVD has a direct loss to the patent/trademark/copyright holder.

 

The price this book is up to shows there is either a collector base or the high bidder will crack it out and sell it raw. Take your pick. For $100 I would buy it just to examine it. Look at Gobbledygook #1 on EBay right now graded 9.0. What are the chances that book is real? Heritage has sold around 4 raw? CGC has 30 on the census. One legit copy sold on EBay and one seller here had a legit copy. What are the chances of this one being one of the lost 14 left?

 

There is a collector base for everything.

 

You're confusing the 1984 b&w Gobbledygook #1 (of which counterfeit copies are also known to exist) with the 1986 anthology book of the same name - CGC won't grade the 1984 book due it to being b&w and having photocopied pages.

 

Which brings up another aspect of this debate. I had an ashcan returned to me ungraded because it would be "too easy to duplicate," yet they would grade this counterfeit, even though it is confirmed to have been duplicated! My original is too low quality for a grade, but this proven forgery is slabbed.

[mschmidt]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

 

I also believe it applies to the buyer not being aware of it being counterfeit. A ton of artwork back in the 1990's was seized and stamped FALSO on the rear because it was counterfeit. Then it was auctioned off by the Fed as counterfeit art. I bought one to examine it to figure out how it was made for my own knowledge.

 

It's legal to sell counterfeit goods (art) as long as it is disclosed; our own government auctioned it off. I would assume the same would be true for comics because there is no actual loss to the publisher where a counterfeit handbag or DVD has a direct loss to the patent/trademark/copyright holder.

 

The price this book is up to shows there is either a collector base or the high bidder will crack it out and sell it raw. Take your pick. For $100 I would buy it just to examine it. Look at Gobbledygook #1 on EBay right now graded 9.0. What are the chances that book is real? Heritage has sold around 4 raw? CGC has 30 on the census. One legit copy sold on EBay and one seller here had a legit copy. What are the chances of this one being one of the lost 14 left?

 

There is a collector base for everything.

 

You're confusing the 1984 b&w Gobbledygook #1 (of which counterfeit copies are also known to exist) with the 1986 anthology book of the same name - CGC won't grade the 1984 book due it to being b&w and having photocopied pages.

 

Which brings up another aspect of this debate. I had an ashcan returned to me ungraded because it would be "too easy to duplicate," yet they would grade this counterfeit, even though it is confirmed to have been duplicated! My original is too low quality for a grade, but this proven forgery is slabbed.

 

It's an apples to oranges comparison.

 

CGC will grade the TMNT, Cerebus, Cry for Dawn counterfeits because the counterfeits have tells that make them easy to spot and differentiate from genuine #1s. For b&w photocopied books - like Goobledygook #1 or your ashcan - there's no way to tell whether it's genuine or a copy someone ran off at Kinkos.

[oakman29]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

 

I also believe it applies to the buyer not being aware of it being counterfeit. A ton of artwork back in the 1990's was seized and stamped FALSO on the rear because it was counterfeit. Then it was auctioned off by the Fed as counterfeit art. I bought one to examine it to figure out how it was made for my own knowledge.

 

It's legal to sell counterfeit goods (art) as long as it is disclosed; our own government auctioned it off. I would assume the same would be true for comics because there is no actual loss to the publisher where a counterfeit handbag or DVD has a direct loss to the patent/trademark/copyright holder.

 

The price this book is up to shows there is either a collector base or the high bidder will crack it out and sell it raw. Take your pick. For $100 I would buy it just to examine it. Look at Gobbledygook #1 on EBay right now graded 9.0. What are the chances that book is real? Heritage has sold around 4 raw? CGC has 30 on the census. One legit copy sold on EBay and one seller here had a legit copy. What are the chances of this one being one of the lost 14 left?

 

There is a collector base for everything.

 

You're confusing the 1984 b&w Gobbledygook #1 (of which counterfeit copies are also known to exist) with the 1986 anthology book of the same name - CGC won't grade the 1984 book due it to being b&w and having photocopied pages.

 

Which brings up another aspect of this debate. I had an ashcan returned to me ungraded because it would be "too easy to duplicate," yet they would grade this counterfeit, even though it is confirmed to have been duplicated! My original is too low quality for a grade, but this proven forgery is slabbed.

 

It's an apples to oranges comparison.

 

CGC will grade the TMNT, Cerebus, Cry for Dawn counterfeits because the counterfeits have tells that make them easy to spot and differentiate from genuine #1s. For b&w photocopied books - like Goobledygook #1 or your ashcan - there's no way to tell whether it's genuine or a copy someone ran off at Kinkos.

That's why I would only want a counterfeit copy of gobbledygook or Eerie#1,because I wouldn't pay high dollar for a book that may well be counterfeit anyway.

[shadroch]

When CGC had a sister company that graded baseball cards, I believe their policy was to destroy any counterfeit cards they received.

[maloney414]

So CGC has determined there are good counterfeits and bad ones.

 

Yes. There are.

 

CGC will grade the TMNT, Cerebus, Cry for Dawn counterfeits because the counterfeits have tells that make them easy to spot and differentiate from genuine #1s. For b&w photocopied books - like Goobledygook #1 or your ashcan - there's no way to tell whether it's genuine or a copy someone ran off at Kinkos.

 

Exactly. The TMNT, Cerebus, and Cry for Dawn aren't random counterfeits. Each one had a sizable print run with specific tells that mark them. Those specific counterfeits have a history/lore associated with them.

 

Some people just see counterfeit and assume, since they don't know the history of some of these. So hopefully, some people didn't know that, otherwise it's the same old: What I collect is awesome, what you collect stinks.

[Dr. Balls]

When CGC had a sister company that graded baseball cards, I believe their policy was to destroy any counterfeit cards they received.

 

"Oh yeah, that Mickey Mantle '62 Topps card you sent in - it was a fake, so we - um, destroyed it."

 

That policy sounds like it would be rife with potential fraud. Even if you hired the most honest people in the world, the potential for customers to discuss the probability of having their belongings destroyed arbitrarily wouldn't be worth the PR problems it would bring. Not saying I don't believe you, (I can see someone coming up with that idea) but a policy like that is right up there with "Hey, let's try out this new Coke recipe!"